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Every single game of 8th edition I have played (except one which was Biovore spam) has been totally dominated by flyers and have been instrumental in destroying me. I don't own any flyers (or want to use them on TTS anyway) and am getting a little sick of it, even when I bring enough ranged dakka, I end up hitting on 5's and missing the vast majority of my shots, and Mork forbid if I have to reposition first. Stormravens, Hemlocks, Storm Tallons, whatever that bloody Tau thing is called, all of it is undercosted and overly effective.

I have personally decided I am going to refuse to play any non-apoc scale games with flyers in them. I want to play Warhammer 40k, not FlyerSpamHammer 41k.

Put a lot more terrain on the table, seriously limits where the airborne armadas can end up

leopard wrote:
Put a lot more terrain on the table, seriously limits where the airborne armadas can end up

Not really?

From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

You could only hit them on a 6 unless you had Skyfire (or a few "works just like Skyfire" special rules), however, once you did, they were subject to the usual vehicle all-or-nothing problem. Either your shot harmlessly donks off, or you do serious damage in one go, possibly including instant death.

Flying monstrous creatures worked like current flyers, except that you could only hit on a 6, and they drove folks crazy. (Though assault FMCs were worthless in 7e)

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

Indeed. Everyone says flyers are supergood now, and I'm a bit puzzled by this. Not saying that they're wrong, but I kinda fail to see why this would be. Perhaps someone can explain?

Goodness, on the list of things that annoy me about 8th, flyers aren't even in the top 10. Though, I don't encounter them too often.

I've heard some IG FW flyers are a bit OP, and stormravens can put out some major dakka (but are pricey).

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us. Even so, tankbustas hit on 6s, and reroll v. vehicles, and do 3 damage each. Lootas can do a good job too with 2 damage each.

Can also assault them with stormboyz, which is hilarious.

It's a measly -1 to hit. Are you also going to refuse games from Tau Stealth suits, Raven Guard and Scouts with Camo Cloaks? Prioritize your shots or get more shooting units, or use one of the many other options that make flyers and other hard to hit units easy to hit.

 Crimson wrote:

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

Indeed. Everyone says flyers are supergood now, and I'm a bit puzzled by this. Not saying that they're wrong, but I kinda fail to see why this would be. Perhaps someone can explain?

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

I think the 5 flier detachment is the big problem. That and Twin Assault Cannon, which is severely underpriced.

What? Hell no.

Flyers are not at all difficult to down. I just played a game yesterday where we each brought a stormraven. They were both dead before turn 2 started. I lost my storm raven before it got to fire 1 shot, a few guys died in the crash.

Flyers are strong for several reasons:

1. They have a long move. In an edition that is seeing a resurgence of guard tanks, or other gunline armies like Rifleman Dreads that don't need to move to deal damage, you need to be able to close the gap quickly, or be shot off the table.

2. Deep strike assault by itself is insanely risky and will probably lose you the game if you don't roll well. Flyers bridge the gap here by providing a credible threat and also dealing damage on your first turn, while simultaneously allowing you to deep strike with some safety.

3. They can't be charged, and they shield your units with their large bases. This is probably the biggest thing i've seen. It's very difficult to maneuver around the base of a flyer. Pairing this with deep strike, you can drop your stuff down and body-block with fliers.

Basically they address the two strongest things in 40k right now: an answer to massed gunline nonsense, and the ability to survive a mass first turn charge in the form of tyranids or other.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

Oh right, sure! But that's more of a problem with the force organisation rather than with the flyers themselves. If you have a normal balanced list with one or two flyers, it shouldn't be a problem.

People could run as many fliers as they wanted in 7th. Multiple detatchments were still a thing. You just didn't want to because they weren't as good.

Mainly I think fliers are so powerful now because vehicles got stronger and flier weaponry got more powerful. They are easier to hit, but harder to wound - as they have armor saves and a high toughness - and have more wounds overall. Something like a Stormraven is loaded with a crazy amount of firepower. Furthermore, fliers start on the board - meaning the damage output of a flier automatically is greater compared to 7th ed, where fliers at best came in on turn 2.

I've been fortunate to not play against loads of fliers in my few 8th ed games. Lets wait and see what the Codex's do to tamp down some of the fliers, or to give new tools to deal with them.

Flyers get 360 Line of Sight. They're point intensive, meaning less drops meaning it's easier to go first. You can't Reserve against them and you can't go around them. These are all changes from 7th to 8th that benefit flyers

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Flyers get 360 Line of Sight. They're point intensive, meaning less drops meaning it's easier to go first. You can't Reserve against them and you can't go around them. These are all changes from 7th to 8th that benefit flyers

You hit them easier than 7th but they are MUCH harder to kill because all tanks became harder to kill.

some fliers are better than others though.

on the bright side i did have a game where i kobed like 3 grenades into the intake of a storm raven as it was zipping around, finally blowing it up.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit. Are you also going to refuse games from Tau Stealth suits, Raven Guard and Scouts with Camo Cloaks? Prioritize your shots or get more shooting units, or use one of the many other options that make flyers and other hard to hit units easy to hit.

Well, remember, I think he's an ork, or that -1 to hit is still a 6+ to hit for us. That being said, I definitely don't find flyers OP.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

I was up against two of the storm...hawks? The guppies with no windshield, with my orks. They both took a couple turns to take out, but that was mostly because I was not shooting a ton at them. And orks are still hitting them on sixes.

With zero anti-air weapons or flyers of my own, they both died by the end of the game. So I'm not all that concerned about flyers myself. I've heard there are abusive strategies with using them to cordon off whole areas by using weird formations, but most of the people I play with just fly them around normally, and they seem fine.

Your dedicated anti-tank should be able to double as anti-flyer. If your local meta is WAAC than maybe you should communicate with your opponent about what kind of game you want to play? It sounds like you don't have what you need to deal with flyers so you should be open with your opponent about that. I don't have what I need in my TAC list to deal with three super-heavies so I don't play against that outside tournaments.

Remember kids, flamers are the best anti-aircraft weapons.

As some others have asked could we get some more detail as to what the actual problem is? I've played about 30 games of 8th in total, but not too many flyers, just some Chaos Dragons or Space Marine gunships, and no one has thought those were particularly hard to kill...

My knee jerk reaction and assumption is, maybe you are not bringing a combined arms list? I'm freely admitting assumption here so please correct me if I am wrong. But 8th is all about balanced variety lists. Take all comers lists and balanced lists should become to the new META pretty quick in most gaming areas (unless spam is becoming your local META).

 McGibs wrote:
Remember kids, flamers are the best anti-aircraft weapons.

...Except that they really aren't? I know this is a meme at this point but it's just wrong. With a couple exceptions like stuff mounted on superheavies, or baleflamers, there's not really a flamer that's going to put more than 1 incidental wound on most flyers. Every anti tank weapon is better, even with -1 to hit.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Your dedicated anti-tank should be able to double as anti-flyer. If your local meta is WAAC than maybe you should communicate with your opponent about what kind of game you want to play? It sounds like you don't have what you need to deal with flyers so you should be open with your opponent about that. I don't have what I need in my TAC list to deal with three super-heavies so I don't play against that outside tournaments.

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

I run 3 stormtalons and a stormhawk. They get shot down fairly easily if the opponent just focuses on bringing them down one at a time. These are T6/7 10w with -1 to hit (unless I hover), it's really not hard to destroy. Hell, you get them down to 2 wounds and they are all but neutered.

Yeah. Bear in mind they lose effectiveness pretty quickly when you damage them.

I actually don't find them as annoying, as anti air units are now far more versatile.

My onagers (usually with at least 2 kitted out with the Icarus array) now have far more targets to choose from, as the fly keyword is fairly common. Even ignoring that, hitting on a 4+ isn't nearly as bad as previous snap shots, so they have plenty of usage just clearing infantry and the like.

Let's ban Flyers!

and Let's ban Forgeworld!

Hell, Let's ban all models with 20 PL or higher!

pismakron wrote:


Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

What about Stormboyz? The Boss Nob could chunk some wounds from a flyer with his Big Choppa or Power Claw, while even at only 5+ to wound, the sheer number of attacks coming from the Boyz would do some damage.
You've also got Deffkoptas. Their Spinnin' Blades aren't bad, and if you take a Killsaw they could pretty reliably pile some wounds on. On top of that, on the off chance they manage to actually hit a flyer, their ranged weapons would do some serious damage.

I've only played 3 games of 8th so far. One of those was going up against 3 Stormravens. After that game, yes, I will be politely declining to play against anyone with several fliers. They are far too effective for their point cost. As to the argument that they are necessary because there is other "broken" stuff, I don't want to have to play one of the skews to be effective. Plus, I'm not seeing a good option in Death Guard for dealing with them...

Flyers are just the flavor of the month right now. They seem to have already fallen off the top of the tournament placings.(although I have only seen three recently) if they continue to be out of the placings in tournaments for the next couple weeks, the flyer spam should die down as the WAAC players will move on to the next broken meta unit combination.