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Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Some of the talk lately has been about the low potency of Marine-type armies on the table. There are a lot of things wrong with them, as I'm sure you've seen the threads.

This one is another discussion on increasing Marine durability, which is reduced in the current edition rather substantially due to the way AP now works. Here it is:

==
Powered Armor:
Units with this ability roll 2d6 when making their save, and discard the lowest result.
==

This would apply to Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and whomever else ends up wearing those types of suits - including Terminators.

I don't know if it would apply to Sisters of Battle, however - they *do* wear power armor, but I'm told it is not quite like the one the Marine types wear, because they don't have a Black Carapace.

This improves durability but still leaves them vulnerable to AP type weapons. One of the issues of a d6 system is that you don't have much die-space to work with. With Space Marines being at 3+, making them one better at 2+ just stepped on the toes of Terminator Armor.

It also opens the potential for 3+ saves for non-Marines, as this reroll wouldn't apply to them.

Let me know how badly this would break the game and ruin 40k for ever!

M.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
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In My Lab

The issue here, ignoring any balance concerns, is time.

Let's assume you've got 5 Marines being shot by a 20-strong squad of Crusaders and Neophytes. 40 shots is 26.67 hits, is 13.33 wounds, so let's call it 13.

You now have to roll 2d6 THIRTEEN TIMES, instead of rolling 13 dice once.

And this will kill, on average, 1.5 Marines. It's just not worth it.

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Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





Marines (all flavours) either need +1W across the board or they get to ignore one point of AP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 20:00:00


   
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Dakka Veteran




Marines need a point drop, that is all.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

<junk>

M.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 21:09:09


Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





That's why I said ignore the first point rather than just reducing, or just tack on a "to a maximum (or minimum?) of 0". Or make it a modifier.

Astartes Built: Models with this ability may add one to their saving throws against wounds with an AP of -1 or better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 20:54:46


   
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Posts with Authority




Saff-end, mate.

The problem with that method is that weight of fire is the biggest killer of marines. It's why Guardsmen are so effective per point against Marines - because for each marine, you can have multiple guardsmen, and all it takes is one unlucky shot to get through the armour and that's a marine dead. It's even worse on Terminators - at least they have an extra Wound.

Strong single fire shots aren't the biggest killer of marines. Weight of fire is.

I like the 2d6 option, but it could get tedious fast. Terminators would REALLY benefit from that, or even ignoring AP0 attacks by having 1+ armour.

Perhaps upgrading all Marine armour by 1? So Terminators have a 1+ save, so they're immune to lasgun rounds?

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In My Lab

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The problem with that method is that weight of fire is the biggest killer of marines. It's why Guardsmen are so effective per point against Marines - because for each marine, you can have multiple guardsmen, and all it takes is one unlucky shot to get through the armour and that's a marine dead. It's even worse on Terminators - at least they have an extra Wound.

Strong single fire shots aren't the biggest killer of marines. Weight of fire is.

I like the 2d6 option, but it could get tedious fast. Terminators would REALLY benefit from that, or even ignoring AP0 attacks by having 1+ armour.

Perhaps upgrading all Marine armour by 1? So Terminators have a 1+ save, so they're immune to lasgun rounds?


Not a fan. Nurgle Daemons, for instance, have two sources of AP-Daemon Princes and Soul Grinders. That's literally it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Infantryman wrote:

==
Powered Armor:
Units with this ability roll 2d6 when making their save, and discard the lowest result.
==

Functionally this is no different to just saying, "You may reroll failed saves", except that it's slower to do as JNA pointed out.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Marines biggest problem is not lack of durability, it is low damage output from bolters and/or CC. That is because they are on the expensive side. Guardsmen, on the other hand, are more durable per point than tactical marines, and they have much higher damage output than tactical marines. The best solution to this is a point reduction for tactical marines and a point increase for Guardsmen. I don't think that tacticals should be much more than twice as expensive as Guardsmen. Maybe Guardsmen at 5 points and tacticals at 11 point.

And trying to make marines more durable and supersoldiery is kind of pointless, because we already have Primaris marines. Which is what you end up with by going that route.

Regards
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

IMHO SM are fine and don't need more survivability or more damage output. Maybe they should be 1 ppm cheaper but it would mean a few points saved in a list so not a significan change.

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Made in us
Huge Hierodule






pismakron wrote:
Marines biggest problem is not lack of durability, it is low damage output from bolters and/or CC. That is because they are on the expensive side. Guardsmen, on the other hand, are more durable per point than tactical marines, and they have much higher damage output than tactical marines. The best solution to this is a point reduction for tactical marines and a point increase for Guardsmen. I don't think that tacticals should be much more than twice as expensive as Guardsmen. Maybe Guardsmen at 5 points and tacticals at 11 point.

And trying to make marines more durable and supersoldiery is kind of pointless, because we already have Primaris marines. Which is what you end up with by going that route.

Regards


I agree with this.

Guardsmen should cost more than Termagants because they have the better save but otherwise similar statline. Boost Guards to 5 ppm. Which would even make the new cost of 4ppm conscripts make sense.

Dropping marines 1 or 2 ppm would bring them better in line.

These "boost their survivability" "Bolters should be better" suggestions are mostly crap.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




It's about making the models worth their value. If you keep scaling the points down, you gotta do it for everyone. A Tactical Marine at 11 points? How does that really compare to a sister or Fire Warrior or Guardsmen?

If anything, just bumping the points down is a lazy attempt at balance for stuff that has, in general, never been good.

Now, I'm definitely not supporting bumping the durability of power armor in general because of the implications (Plague Marines are at 17. They don't need to be more durable. They need better offensive power for the cost).

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Weight of fire is actually not effective against marines anymore. Going to 2+ save in cover has made marines very resilient to mass ap0. The thing that really hurt marines is mass ap-2 and ap-3 weapons - which everyone and their mother takes in as high supply as they possibly can just for the reason. I think a special addition to power armor and terminator armor/gravis armor would really help the units on the table - -1 Ap to to any weapon of ap-2 or better. Also an increase to bolter damage per point on marine models would go a long way to make them worth their points.

Not leaving out other sources of 3+ saves. Any unit with just an armor save on 3+ or better should probably benefit from this too.

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What is your fear?
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about making the models worth their value. If you keep scaling the points down, you gotta do it for everyone. A Tactical Marine at 11 points? How does that really compare to a sister or Fire Warrior or Guardsmen?

If anything, just bumping the points down is a lazy attempt at balance for stuff that has, in general, never been good.

Now, I'm definitely not supporting bumping the durability of power armor in general because of the implications (Plague Marines are at 17. They don't need to be more durable. They need better offensive power for the cost).


It is not about scaling the points down. A tactical marine is overcosted while an Imperial Guardsman is undercosted. Fire Warriors are less problematic but are probably also slightly overcosted. Buffing the firepower of bolters is certainly one strategy to fix tacticals. But then I think they should just use the same stats as intercessors. With their current statline they should be reduced to 11 points.
   
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pismakron wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about making the models worth their value. If you keep scaling the points down, you gotta do it for everyone. A Tactical Marine at 11 points? How does that really compare to a sister or Fire Warrior or Guardsmen?

If anything, just bumping the points down is a lazy attempt at balance for stuff that has, in general, never been good.

Now, I'm definitely not supporting bumping the durability of power armor in general because of the implications (Plague Marines are at 17. They don't need to be more durable. They need better offensive power for the cost).


It is not about scaling the points down. A tactical marine is overcosted while an Imperial Guardsman is undercosted. Fire Warriors are less problematic but are probably also slightly overcosted. Buffing the firepower of bolters is certainly one strategy to fix tacticals. But then I think they should just use the same stats as intercessors. With their current statline they should be reduced to 11 points.

And you have to ask yourself why certain units like that are overcosted.

For example, the Tactical Marine is an expensive Bolter and can't take a lot of good weapons. If you fix those issues, the profile makes more sense. Just decreasing cost doesn't fix this issue as you have to scale everything else as well. A Tactical Marine shouldn't be only 4 points more than a Fire Warrior, so fix the base.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's about making the models worth their value. If you keep scaling the points down, you gotta do it for everyone. A Tactical Marine at 11 points? How does that really compare to a sister or Fire Warrior or Guardsmen?

If anything, just bumping the points down is a lazy attempt at balance for stuff that has, in general, never been good.

Now, I'm definitely not supporting bumping the durability of power armor in general because of the implications (Plague Marines are at 17. They don't need to be more durable. They need better offensive power for the cost).


It is not about scaling the points down. A tactical marine is overcosted while an Imperial Guardsman is undercosted. Fire Warriors are less problematic but are probably also slightly overcosted. Buffing the firepower of bolters is certainly one strategy to fix tacticals. But then I think they should just use the same stats as intercessors. With their current statline they should be reduced to 11 points.

And you have to ask yourself why certain units like that are overcosted.

For example, the Tactical Marine is an expensive Bolter and can't take a lot of good weapons. If you fix those issues, the profile makes more sense. Just decreasing cost doesn't fix this issue as you have to scale everything else as well. A Tactical Marine shouldn't be only 4 points more than a Fire Warrior, so fix the base.


Why shouldn't a tactical marine be only 4 points more than a fire warrior? A marine has better Toughness and Armour Save, but a Fire Warrior has a better gun. If you want to turn marines into supersoldiers, then I suggest you give them W2, A2, -1AP like intercessors. But keeping them with their old statline and points costs and trying to fix them with special rules is just a bad idea.
   
Made in us
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The Marine doesn't need special rules. They need a fix in equipment.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Ft.Worth

I've been playing only recently and with the fluff and everything I agree. With all this talk of power armor and the Terminators having amazing armor. Why are they only 1 or 2 wound models?

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Made in us
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 MightyAnarchist wrote:
I've been playing only recently and with the fluff and everything I agree. With all this talk of power armor and the Terminators having amazing armor. Why are they only 1 or 2 wound models?


Because fluff does not = crunch. The whole game is drastic examples of extreme craziness in the fluff that doesnt translate, and should never translate, to the table.

Shadow in the warp blankets entire planets weeks before the first nid oranism makes planetfall. Why the feth does it have an 18" range from only some nid units? Because it would be stupid to give a blanket table wide -1 ld increased to -3 if the unit is a psyker or deamon so that the crunch matched the fluff.

The WORST reasoning for changing marines is the fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 04:19:45


   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




^ This

You will never get fluff worthy marines on the table, this is just not possible

cause if you did, they would be probably T6 W3 2+ armour for a standard marine, let alone a chapter master or captain, which would probably be T7 W8-9 2+ 3++

And if that is only just marines, imagine what bloody daemons would be, cause they are considered much more powerful then even the strongest marine.

Try and fight those with your S3 T3 1W humans or equivalent
   
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mchammadad wrote:
^ This

You will never get fluff worthy marines on the table, this is just not possible

cause if you did, they would be probably T6 W3 2+ armour for a standard marine, let alone a chapter master or captain, which would probably be T7 W8-9 2+ 3++

And if that is only just marines, imagine what bloody daemons would be, cause they are considered much more powerful then even the strongest marine.

Try and fight those with your S3 T3 1W humans or equivalent

This is just totally not true. It's not some unattainable achievement to have marines represent an elite trooper and also be an elite trooper. I somewhat like the idea of just adding a wound and attack to each power armor/terminator/gravis armor infantry for almost no point cost increase. As it is - they see virtually no play except in the "as a tax" fashion. Then they can keep their crappy bolters at their current stats.

What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
 
   
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Powerful Irongut




mchammadad wrote:
^ This

You will never get fluff worthy marines on the table, this is just not possible

cause if you did, they would be probably T6 W3 2+ armour for a standard marine, let alone a chapter master or captain, which would probably be T7 W8-9 2+ 3++

And if that is only just marines, imagine what bloody daemons would be, cause they are considered much more powerful then even the strongest marine.

Try and fight those with your S3 T3 1W humans or equivalent


The fluff is marines are good because normal humans have to sleep, and when humans get wounded they have to go to a hospital and recover for six months. That can't happen on the tabletop. The background doesn't give them t6 and w3, it gives them t4, and it gives them the S to carry lascannons the way they would large rifles, and that's what they have.

There are a bunch of things that could happen to the rules to make marines more elite, but it's not toughness, save, or stat boosts.

By the way it's really embarrassing to say stats when the are called characteristics, or a stat line when it's a profile.

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pelicaniforce wrote:
mchammadad wrote:
^ This

You will never get fluff worthy marines on the table, this is just not possible

cause if you did, they would be probably T6 W3 2+ armour for a standard marine, let alone a chapter master or captain, which would probably be T7 W8-9 2+ 3++

And if that is only just marines, imagine what bloody daemons would be, cause they are considered much more powerful then even the strongest marine.

Try and fight those with your S3 T3 1W humans or equivalent


The fluff is marines are good because normal humans have to sleep, and when humans get wounded they have to go to a hospital and recover for six months. That can't happen on the tabletop. The background doesn't give them t6 and w3, it gives them t4, and it gives them the S to carry lascannons the way they would large rifles, and that's what they have.

There are a bunch of things that could happen to the rules to make marines more elite, but it's not toughness, save, or stat boosts.


This depends on what fluff your referencing. "The Fluff" is all over the shop on every faction ranging from ridiculous to reasonable. Movie marines would absolutely have different stats.

By the way it's really embarrassing to say stats when the are called characteristics, or a stat line when it's a profile.


Why is it embarrassing? Everyone knows what is being talked about.

   
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Maryland, USA

JakeSiren wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:

==
Powered Armor:
Units with this ability roll 2d6 when making their save, and discard the lowest result.
==

Functionally this is no different to just saying, "You may reroll failed saves", except that it's slower to do as JNA pointed out.


Yeah, good point. Can't believe that did not occur to me.

Well, that's the ball game.

M.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in ru
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






So, you want 2+ re-rollable marines (in cover) for 13 ppm? you mad.
   
Made in gb
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Marines (all flavours) either need +1W across the board or they get to ignore one point of AP.

I would say +1 Wound, it's silly that one bad roll against a lasgun results in a dead marine. They'd need to go up in price a few points, but I'd strongly prefer that to the current trend of marines getting cheaper and cheaper for no reason.

I'd reserve AP reduction to terminators and such, who really ought to have a 1+ save; 3 wounds and a 1+ save might actually start to make terminators viable again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 12:33:24


   
Made in ca
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Yeah I don't want a large amount of marines on the board . I think 13ppm is a good cost, but I don't think they are worth 13ppm.

But I'm just going to toss this out without much in depth thought, if primaris are supposed to super space marines, I'd like to see them stay at 2W but maybe reduce damage by half rounding up.
Personally I don't want to see marines having a bunch of different wound values. Except maybe terminator and gravis adding a wound.
   
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I've said this elsewhere marines all need the primaris stat line 2 W and 2 attacks. They would need a price bump. But at current primaris price, it is slightly worse than marines costing 9 points per model (more vulnerable to multiple damage weapons and fewer shots.), then have terminators get the extra wound and attack (so 3 each).

   
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pelicaniforce wrote:
mchammadad wrote:
^ This

You will never get fluff worthy marines on the table, this is just not possible

cause if you did, they would be probably T6 W3 2+ armour for a standard marine, let alone a chapter master or captain, which would probably be T7 W8-9 2+ 3++

And if that is only just marines, imagine what bloody daemons would be, cause they are considered much more powerful then even the strongest marine.

Try and fight those with your S3 T3 1W humans or equivalent


The fluff is marines are good because normal humans have to sleep, and when humans get wounded they have to go to a hospital and recover for six months. That can't happen on the tabletop. The background doesn't give them t6 and w3, it gives them t4, and it gives them the S to carry lascannons the way they would large rifles, and that's what they have.

There are a bunch of things that could happen to the rules to make marines more elite, but it's not toughness, save, or stat boosts.

By the way it's really embarrassing to say stats when the are called characteristics, or a stat line when it's a profile.

You know your argument is crap when you correct peoples word choices when the word choice means exactly the same thing. I would have you know that the fluff depicts marines as being unstoppable killing machines. To compare fluff to stats (characteristics) marines would have 2++ rerollable saves with rapid fire 6 bolters. Give me a break man. No one is saying that is what they want - but you know you have a problem when a 600 lb soldier with 2 hearts / and carapace skin / and thick as fck armor and it has the same number of wounds as a 150 lb conscript. Just get outta here with that weak as heck argument.

What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
 
   
 
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