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Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot








I'm currently playing an Elysians list, so all my units can deepstrike. The question I am pondering is this....better to go with Veterans as a shock element ( Deepstrike with 3 plasmaguns) vs Stormtroopers ( DS with 4 plasmaguns). Stormtroopers have better armor and hotshots are not bad up close. Veterans cost a lot less and I can take more stuff in the army.

I'm finding the core of my army, 4-5 regular drop squads followed by the shock element to be very effective. But looking at the lists I've made, with veterans I can add in a bunch of mortar and manticore squads, some assassins for HTH etc.

Thoughts on the differences? I know some say go with stormtroopers because they are also troops and can score....

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

Troops is a big deal, also they get their trait if you take them in their own detachment. That extra shots on 6 ability really helps and can be devastating with the amount of shots they put downrange with proper placement. On top of that, they also have more useful regular infantry with their AP-2 rifles, which means even the regular soldiers can contribute in most situations. In addition, a +4 armor save is very handy this edition and helps them stick around when dropped en masse. Stormtroopers are excellent this edition and I have not yet had a game yet where I regretted bringing them. And the few times I left them out of the list, I paid for it dearly.

I don't play Elysian, but I do use vets on foot/in transports a lot and their only real niche I've found is the variety of weapons they carry. Being able to pack 3 specials, a heavy, and a heavy flamer can be pretty nasty, if fragile. Might be usable with elysians but heavy flamers are useless for deepstrike and deepstriking heavy weapons (which should be a lascannon, because they're vets) seems really pointless. This means they're just a cutrate stormtrooper squad most of the time.

If this is purely a shock unit, I'm surprised you havent mentioned SWS's and Command squads. Both do away with most of the extreneous models like sergeants and riflemen to take purely special/heavy weapons. From what I understand most competitive Elysian lists do just that while mixing in Stormtroopers. If your goal is to play a proper Elysian list, either go with the SWS and command squad, or perhaps even converting up carapace armored elysians to be a stormtrooper proxy.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos






Elysian special weapons squads with triple plasma all the way if you're playing competitively. They avoid the tax of vets and the BS3+ plasma tax. There are few situations that a triple plasma vet squad will outperform the TWO elysian triple plasma SWSs you can get for the same points

Fully Painted Armies: 1600pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons

And here are my blood angels tanks. They have big white eagles on them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424022.page  
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






 DoomMouse wrote:
Elysian special weapons squads with triple plasma all the way if you're playing competitively. They avoid the tax of vets and the BS3+ plasma tax. There are few situations that a triple plasma vet squad will outperform the TWO elysian triple plasma SWSs you can get for the same points


I know mathammer says they are more efficient but I've never seen that in practice.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





Likely more to due with expensive models and people unwilling to count-as them(maybe due to tournaments often banning such count-as).

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






tneva82 wrote:
Likely more to due with expensive models and people unwilling to count-as them(maybe due to tournaments often banning such count-as).


That doesn't make much sense as an explanation. Veteran squads and SWS use the exact same models, the only difference is how many lasgun-armed models are in each unit.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Peregrine wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Likely more to due with expensive models and people unwilling to count-as them(maybe due to tournaments often banning such count-as).


That doesn't make much sense as an explanation. Veteran squads and SWS use the exact same models, the only difference is how many lasgun-armed models are in each unit.


TWO elysian triple plasma SWSs

Pretty sure normal IG troopers don\t cost well over 20£ for 5/6 guys like elysians do. Not wonder therefore you don't see elysians as much as math says they should be especially since count as here would often be seen more of gaming and sort of modeling for advantage so often enough not allowed in tournaments.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 08:31:05


”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

The helmets kill them for me, honestly.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






That's not how IG models work. The Elysian rules are not tied to the FW kits, just like the Ultramarines rules are not limited to blue-painted space marines. You can use the Ultramarines rules with a custom chapter that has a yellow paint scheme, and you can use the Elysian rules with a custom regiment that uses Cadian-pattern flak armor. Both of those cases are 100% WYSIWYG and only TFG could claim otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 08:56:33


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Bobthehero wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.


Which aren't any cheaper really...You don't see many DKoK armies out there either. Likely due to cost of models. You need to pay roughly twice as a minimum per model. Seeing amount of models IG infantry results in...Pricey!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 09:19:05


”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

I was going to do DKoK but honestly did not think my painting skills were up to it That and I wanted to do a tank-heavy army this time, and DKoK is famously infantry-heavy. Maybe sometime in the future, though...

 Bobthehero wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.


Are they head-swappable? For some reason I got the impression the heads were cast-on. The models themselves are fine save the heads, and I definitely like the lasgun pattern they use. I'd thought to use them originally as an Atradies-themed army...

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Infantryman wrote:
Are they head-swappable? For some reason I got the impression the heads were cast-on.


The Elysian models, with the exception of a couple of the sniper models, have separate heads. Just be aware that Elysians (and DKoK) are true 28mm scale, not the distorted "heroic 28mm" of GW's plastic IG models. Cadian heads, for example, will be way too big for them.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

tneva82 wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.


Which aren't any cheaper really...You don't see many DKoK armies out there either. Likely due to cost of models. You need to pay roughly twice as a minimum per model. Seeing amount of models IG infantry results in...Pricey!


My point is that no matter where you buy them, you can use any human in armor with a rifle as an Elysian.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Bobthehero wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.


Which aren't any cheaper really...You don't see many DKoK armies out there either. Likely due to cost of models. You need to pay roughly twice as a minimum per model. Seeing amount of models IG infantry results in...Pricey!


My point is that no matter where you buy them, you can use any human in armor with a rifle as an Elysian.


Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops) and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models. When you know that's possibility it kinda makes you less inclined to build your army over something you might not be able to use in tournaments.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 09:42:18


”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Normal Elysians don't come with their grav-chute, you gotta buy that separatly, so even if you stick with the official model, you won't have the chutes.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

tneva82 wrote:


Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops) and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models. When you know that's possibility it kinda makes you less inclined to build your army over something you might not be able to use in tournaments.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"


First thing you should do when you land is get out of your 'chute.

I don't expect every IG trooper to have a backpack - I expect these were dumped the moment contact was made, slightly off-table.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Infantryman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops) and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models. When you know that's possibility it kinda makes you less inclined to build your army over something you might not be able to use in tournaments.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"


First thing you should do when you land is get out of your 'chute.

I don't expect every IG trooper to have a backpack - I expect these were dumped the moment contact was made, slightly off-table.


Ok good point. Still elysian models are CLEARLY different looking from cadians and as said many events would ban cadian=elysian count often precisely to avoid simply gaming yourself more army by count-as'ing. So either you need to spend serious effort converting those cadians to look more like drop troopers or you buy official models or you risk illegal army for tournaments. None of those are exactly good incentives to use those rules.

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






tneva82 wrote:
Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops)


You know that the standard Elysian kits don't have any kind of jump packs or parachutes or anything, right?

and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models.


Well that's a problem with TFGs, not a rules issue. How much money a model costs should not ever be relevant. If a model is WYSIWYG and a legitimate 40k model then it should be legal, no matter how much money you paid for it.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"


That's an absolutely insane principle. Is the game experience for either player improved by larger amounts of money being spent? What's next, having the TO rate the power level of each army and tell you how many $20 bills you have to burn to be allowed to play it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
Ok good point. Still elysian models are CLEARLY different looking from cadians and as said many events would ban cadian=elysian count often precisely to avoid simply gaming yourself more army by count-as'ing. So either you need to spend serious effort converting those cadians to look more like drop troopers or you buy official models or you risk illegal army for tournaments. None of those are exactly good incentives to use those rules.


That isn't a case of counts-as, it's playing 100% WYSIWYG models. Regiment rules are not tied to any particular model or color scheme, just like an army with yellow space marines can use the Ultramarines rules. This is explicitly stated and encouraged by GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 09:51:58


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Infantryman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops) and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models. When you know that's possibility it kinda makes you less inclined to build your army over something you might not be able to use in tournaments.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"


First thing you should do when you land is get out of your 'chute.

I don't expect every IG trooper to have a backpack - I expect these were dumped the moment contact was made, slightly off-table.


Patrol packs would work, not so much rucksacks. As for grav-chutes, I personally left them on my custom Scions, but its because I wanted to differentiate them from Cadians as much as I could with the limited options I have.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Well, you can get these: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Grav-Chute-Pack-of-10?_requestid=1253178

I suppose you could always stick them to Cadians and double the cost of your models...

I mean, I'm all for WYSIWYG but if you want Candian-bodied drop troops go for it - I did that in 4e with a Doctrine and no one stopped me.

Speaking of WYSIWYG, to my understanding that's not a rule - just a convention. Makes me wonder if I could use Khorn CSM or something as Elysians...

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

I tripled the cost of my Cadian to Scion them up, personally.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in jp
Dakka Veteran





Gig Harbor, WA

tneva82 wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
 Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.


I prefer their full mask face, but that jacks up the cost :/

Peregrine's right tho, you could field DKoK Guardsmen and use Elysians and you'd be fine.


Which aren't any cheaper really...You don't see many DKoK armies out there either. Likely due to cost of models. You need to pay roughly twice as a minimum per model. Seeing amount of models IG infantry results in...Pricey!


My point is that no matter where you buy them, you can use any human in armor with a rifle as an Elysian.


Except many expect as MINIMUM some sort of jump packs also on them(they are DROP troops) and many events I have seen to require official models for FW stuff probably precisely to avoid min-maxing players just count-as'ing stuff as more powerful models by cheap models. When you know that's possibility it kinda makes you less inclined to build your army over something you might not be able to use in tournaments.

Principle being "if you are going to min-max at least pay the money for it"


That’s asinine. 40k is already a rich mans game of luxury toys without taking it to that extent.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

EDIT: Should've finished reading before posting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 15:03:24


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

 Bobthehero wrote:
I tripled the cost of my Cadian to Scion them up, personally.


I'm looking to use the old Stormtrooper models as mine - unfortunately the only pistol-carrying one also has a bolter strapped to him...which naturally Scion leaders can't take anymore.

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

There's a metal sergeant with a hotshot pistol/sword loadout, other than the Kasrkin one, that is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 19:30:24


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Tyrant of Badab






HATE Club, East London

I intend to use my Anvil Industry Afterlife models as Elysians.

Though my guards may sleep and my ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire. 
   
Made in gb
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos






I've been converting up some fixed-wing packs for my cadians. I'm pretty pleased with them and they've been a fun project. I agree with peregrine - enforcing strict pay-to-win is pretty dumb in an already expensive hobby.

I personally recommend the SWSs though, they've done fine for me. I think math hammer has a lot of value when comparing vets and SWSs as they're so similar in a lot of respects and will usually get at least one turn of optimum firepower.

Fully Painted Armies: 1600pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons

And here are my blood angels tanks. They have big white eagles on them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424022.page  
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Bobthehero wrote:There's a metal sergeant with a hotshot pistol/sword loadout, other than the Kasrkin one, that is.


Same pattern as this?

Spoiler:


I've not run into it - just the REALLY old ones with sword and pistol, and the Kasarkin-era ones.

Personally I really liked the style of Stormtrooper above; kinda wish they'd stayed longer.

DoomMouse wrote:I've been converting up some fixed-wing packs for my cadians. I'm pretty pleased with them and they've been a fun project.


...can I see?

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.
 necrontyrOG wrote:
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby.

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Infantryman wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:There's a metal sergeant with a hotshot pistol/sword loadout, other than the Kasrkin one, that is.


Same pattern as this?

Spoiler:




Yup

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
 
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