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Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

I'm part of a very friendly group at a local store, and while it's a great place, I'm not too keen on actually buying from there. I pay my club dues and all necessary fees, but not much in terms of products. One of the members recently bought some rulebooks off eBay, prompting another member to criticise him for not getting them from the store, citing a "lack of community spirit".

Here's the thing, the store sells everything for RRP, whereas most of the other stores I've visited have had some sort of discount. Hell, one of them I visited a few times had a £1 discount on 40K stuff, but even that small reduction attracted customers. I was quite annoyed at this comment, as I'm not particularly wealthy, and if there are cheaper avenues elsewhere surely that should be acceptable.

There's another store I visit whenever I'm in London, I can get a box of Custodes for £26 rather than the £35 the FLGS sells for. I know it's my money to do as I please yet there's this niggling feeling that I should buy from the FLGS. Should I be obliged to pay more to keep this sense of community going?
   
Made in us
Shrieking Guardian Jetbiker




If you're paying a club due or fee, I would so no, you're not morally obligated to buy there.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Norwalk, Connecticut

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
If you're paying a club due or fee, I would so no, you're not morally obligated to buy there.


Exactly this. I believe in “pay where you play”, and you’re doing that already. If the owner chose to go the route of paying for club dues, that should allow your conscience to be clean.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





If you pay for your game time and terrain use and such, like you seem to do, then no. You shouldn't feel obliged to buy from there.

I buy most of my minis from my LGS, they offer about a 20% discount compared to GW's prices. If they sold at GW's RRP I wouldn't buy nearly as much from them.

Game stores are businesses, and should expect to encounter some competition. They're not your friends (well, of course you can be friends with the owner or w/e) and you don't owe them your loyalty. You may still want to support them, I like to do that because I like having an LGS, but it's your choice.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I play in different stores around Galicia, and normally I play 90% of the time in tournaments. I pay a fee to enter those tournaments. Normally I always like to buy something from them when I go to a tournament, but many times they just don't have it on stock, and normally I buy from those stores because they have web-stores, but not always. I buy many things from Ebay and UK. I just keep a balance.
In todays market, if a store don't want to have discounts, or a Web-store, is their fault. Yeah, it sucks if you lose your only store. But thats an opportunity to start a club. Aren't those popular in UK? I believe in USA they play mainly in stores, but in europe most of the players play in clubs with monthly fees, etc...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 22:59:36


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





No, especially if they're like my store where they truly only care about MTG and they markup prices just because they think they can get away with it.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

If you are charged for using the place in the guise of club fees then you've no obligation to buy stuff there

(although if the place folds from lack of sales you only get the right to complain bitterly if you do shop there)

 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






A store of any sort is there to earn money. To do so they need to earn your business. "Earn" being the key phrase there. However, I'd say don't take advantage of a store's hospitality if you're never going to buy there.

But are you obligated to purchase from a store? Not at all.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you received non-LGS stuff from discount mail order for X-mas / B-day, is that a problem?

You're already paying club dues. That's enough to cover your playing costs.

That said, you should keep your yap shut about where new models and such come from.

JHDD's Grand Hobby Ominbus
-- $k Kingdom Death : Monster P&M blog
-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Fees to play are unlikely to cover the stores running costs and, if the venue is rented by the store, might only go toward securing the rent of the spot rather than any actual overheads or profit fro the store side of things.


If a store is promoting and supporting the local club scene then it generally helps to buy from the store because the store and club help keep each other alive. Many a time the closure of the only store in an area can kill off a game because the community loses that focal point (esp once you start having clubs outside of school or universities).

So most local clubs will often try to encourage people to buy from the local because its helping the club stay alive - getting new people into thehobby and being a focal point for the community and such (esp if the store is running the club and hiring out the venue - organising events etc...)


That said there's no shame in buying models where-ever and however you wish (so long as its legal). Some might frown if you never buy local, but that's their issue and it should never be made a problem socially; nor should the club ever demand of you that you only buy from them (even GW stores only enforce that you use their products not that you must buy from the store).

RRP isn't bad, but if you are finding that other stores locally are offering better prices you might consider talking to the store owner. Suggest that they consider giving some similar discounts or that they enact a loyalty scheme or similar concepts.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The fact that they charge a club fee at all presumes it to be sufficient.

JHDD's Grand Hobby Ominbus
-- $k Kingdom Death : Monster P&M blog
-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I had my local haunt while I was in college. They taught me to play, helped me find bits, provided and EXCELLENT gaming area for free with a wide variety of terrain. They even went so far as to give a half dozen boxes of models and some blisters whenever there was a tournament. Yes, most of it was overstock or old inventory, but it was FREE.

Because of that kind of service not only did I only buy there (except for exotic items like ForgeWorld), I continued to go there long after I was out of college. For 3 years I drove 90 miles to that store once per week to play, and buy.

Today, there is a store I go to. Yes, I buy stuff there, but there is no emotional attachment. In 12 years I have been to one tourney (paid fee), and no gaming nights. I wouldn't hesitate to buy elsewhere. I'd prefer to support a locally owned store, but I've likely dropped $8000 there with little return value.

Your obligation is only proportional to the amount you use, minus the amount they take.
   
Made in us
Lit By the Flames of Prospero





land of 10k taxes

If you play there excluding events that cost money = yes. If you are playing at friends houses = no.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The hobby is actually hating GW.

JHDD's Grand Hobby Ominbus
-- $k Kingdom Death : Monster P&M blog
-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker




Somerset uk

My local game stores sells at full retail, I don’t game there as the be fair they don’t play any games that I want / like to play and hardly buy much in the unless it’s brushes I need.

Would sooner hunt things down online.
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Philadelphia PA

My LGS doesn't offer a discount (thought they have a lovely yearly sale), but they offer access to a huge table area that's clean and well lit with tons of terrain and mats available for use.

For that I buy an item every time I'm there to play. Of course I play X-wing so it's usually just dropping $15 for a new release I'd be buying anyway. Even online I'd only save a couple bucks so I figure it's worth it to keep a good store going.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd say you're obliged to contribute to the friendly community spirit, to keep it that way.

If you're paying fees to play there, they've already got your money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 07:56:11


 
   
Made in gb
Most Glorious Grey Seer






Eh, just be aware it's a business there to make money.

Club fees and dues are all well and good - but if the business closes?

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eh, just be aware it's a business there to make money.

Club fees and dues are all well and good - but if the business closes?


The flip side of that is the business has no right to your money merely for existing. It seems as though the OP would quite like to support his FLGS more but isn't happy at being charged more than other stores typically charge. They're already paying to use the tables and terrain. I don't think they should feel guilty that the store doesn't offer good enough value for money. Obviously there's a danger people not buying from the store means it could close but, again, businesses don't have an automatic right to continue to exist. There are any number of reasons a FLGS's sales might not be sufficient to keep them running, from high prices to poor location to bad employees. It's not the customer's fault if the person running the business can't make it succeed.

If the store owner is a reasonable person and asks why you're using models/books not bought from them I'd tell them you don't think their prices are good enough. It's then up to them how they use that information.
   
Made in gb
Most Glorious Grey Seer






All about the facilities.

Been around the intartubes for a long old time now, and every so often you'll see the 'GW forced my local store out of business', when it turns out those decrying Big Bad Bully companies buy all their stuff online.

Also, sounds like the business in question is charging RRP, which isn't exactly out of order? And there's an assumption being made here that they have any kind of a choice in the matter. Without seeing their sales volumes and overheads, it's entirely possible they can't afford to discount.

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





Bristol, England

If you want the store to stay open for a long time then buy from there.
If not then don't.
Club/gaming fees are normally just enough to keep the lights/heat on and maintain the tables/terrain if you're lucky.
Staffing and rents/rates are the big ones.
Do some basic maths or ask the owner and see what that store need to run, you'll soon know that they must sell toys to make ends meet.

Roughly how many people go there to play per day and what do they pay?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 10:12:41


Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Absolutely not, they are a business. They should be obliged to take your money not the other way round.

For anybody using the argument "what about your sense of community?" ask "well what about the shop's?". If a customer has to pay more money for the "community" then why can the shop sell for less for the "community"?

And for any shop that has to close due online competitors... its your own fault for stagnating when you have major advantages over online retailers.

I look at some of the independent shops out there and can not understand how they are wasting so many opportunities to take my money and the money of other nerds like me.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

"And for any shop that has to close due online competitors... its your own fault for stagnating when you have major advantages over online retailers."


You're clearly unaware of overheads. Running a highstreet shop incurs way more overheads than an online only business. Your rate, rent, tax and all for a highstreet shop are way above those for running a warehouse out in the sticks or a cheap industrial out-of-town centre. It's why so many small shops have closed up over the last few decades; sure they get footfall, but have a look at your highstreet - gone are many geek or specialist little shops and instead you've got things like designer clothes and mobile phones (items with very high mark up for profit) and foot outlets (constant customers every day esp at peek hours).

It's why many online stores can charge less than RRP because they have fewer/cheaper overheads, plus potential access to a larger number of customers. However online is high competition because now you're competing nationally and even internationally for customers. When you've already got major online stores like Firestorm, Wayland and the like its a lot harder to push into that market for a small store without spending a lot on marketing (That the store likely hasn't got).




Sure you are not required nor demanded to buy at your local store; but for the store to remain functional its got to have customers who buy from them. Club fees will often only cover very marginal costs - like the rent of hte room and perhaps payment for a member of staff on-site as well as things like boards and terrain; the heating; the lighting etc... It won't cover the stores day to day running costs.


It's not that highstreet shops have stagnated, its that the current policies and prices of running a highstreet shop in any half-decent area of town are very harsh in today's world.

Granted hobbyshops don't tend to have to compete with the super buying and pricing wars that supermarkets generate; but at the same time they were always shops that had lower footfall of customers. Sure some of those customers spent a lot when they did come in, but they were never turning over fast sales on a daily basis (unless in very affluent areas). So the current highstreet climate is very hard on them.


It's why Magic the Gathering is the lifeblood of many hobbyshops for geeks today - because the whole structure of MTG generates sales on its own. A product that re-releases itself three or four times a year; cycles its viability so that each annual period you're required to buy into a whole new suit of cards; and that's without accessories and all the stuff that goes with it. Plus a card pack is cheap so you can feed casual buying more easily.
Even if everyone at the club bought their decks online there's still formats like booster draft that help to generate continual sales.

As much as wargamers might complain, wargames are a poor product for a highstreet shop - lower volume of sale; much higher stocking volume and stocking cost.




So yes to repeat you are not required to support your local store; but if your store provides a club, and it sells at least at rrp or lower and if they are a friendly positive atmosphere that draws more new people into the game - then it is a local resource and it benefits you that the store remains open; thus it makes sense to, where possible, pay and support your store.

As said consider suggesting that they have sale periods or a loyalty system or other such mechanism in order to try and further promote direct local sales. Heck club membership could come with a discount if they wanted. Join the club; get cheaper minis; and be encouraged to game and join into activities.
I've even seen stores run event evenings like painting or assembly classes with a modest fee charged per-person.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






If it were me, and I did all my gaming at this venue, then I'd buy there. It's simply logical, selfish reasoning; if you buy your stuff at this venue, then it is more likely to remain open, and thus you'll have somewhere to play games. If you don't and it closes, then what? You've saved 20% on all your miniatures, but they're useless now.

Personally, I prefer to keep my games shops and gaming clubs separate for just that reason.
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If it were me, and I did all my gaming at this venue, then I'd buy there. It's simply logical, selfish reasoning; if you buy your stuff at this venue, then it is more likely to remain open, and thus you'll have somewhere to play games. If you don't and it closes, then what? You've saved 20% on all your miniatures, but they're useless now.

Personally, I prefer to keep my games shops and gaming clubs separate for just that reason.


Something stores could consider is charge for gaming room but give free passes if you buy enough from store. This way those who buy from store play for free, those who don't pay.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.


I'd have to disagree, sure there are haters, but usually its more ongoing disappointment at the gulf between what GW is and what it could be

anyhoo, back on topic, if you are paying to use the space then no purchases required, if those costs don't cover overheads that's the stores problem not yours, its always a shame if a store folds but with a bit of effort its possible to keep local gaming alive without a store, my corner of the Shire hasn't had a FLGS for nigh on a decade but we have 3 clubs of varying flavours that pull in respectable numbers all within 30 mins or so

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Snivelling Workbot





Basically, just a loyalty card that allows you to play 1 game for free for every so much you spend...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




If you find yourself not buying from a store you play at, it’s worth talking to the management about why. Obviously they want you to do so, and should be interested in hearing about why their customers do or do not purchase from them.

I buy most, but not all, of my stuff from my LGS. It’s not from some a position of obligation that I do so however. It’s becuase they stock what I want, offer a great place to play, have food and drinks, and offer a 10% discount with a loyalty program. I can get slightly cheaper prices online, but I realize that is only part of the value I derive from my local store. It’s absolutely worth the 5-10% price difference to enjoy my hobby in this place.

As someone who runs a small business myself, I put the ball squarly in the retailers court to sell to their customers. I also am very sensitive to feedback from customers, for good reason. The sticker prices are only part of running a store and it’s ultimately on them to figure that out.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
"And for any shop that has to close due online competitors... its your own fault for stagnating when you have major advantages over online retailers."


You're clearly unaware of overheads. Running a highstreet shop incurs way more overheads than an online only business. Your rate, rent, tax and all for a highstreet shop are way above those for running a warehouse out in the sticks or a cheap industrial out-of-town centre. It's why so many small shops have closed up over the last few decades; sure they get footfall, but have a look at your highstreet - gone are many geek or specialist little shops and instead you've got things like designer clothes and mobile phones (items with very high mark up for profit) and foot outlets (constant customers every day esp at peek hours).

It's why many online stores can charge less than RRP because they have fewer/cheaper overheads, plus potential access to a larger number of customers. However online is high competition because now you're competing nationally and even internationally for customers. When you've already got major online stores like Firestorm, Wayland and the like its a lot harder to push into that market for a small store without spending a lot on marketing (That the store likely hasn't got).




Sure you are not required nor demanded to buy at your local store; but for the store to remain functional its got to have customers who buy from them. Club fees will often only cover very marginal costs - like the rent of hte room and perhaps payment for a member of staff on-site as well as things like boards and terrain; the heating; the lighting etc... It won't cover the stores day to day running costs.


It's not that highstreet shops have stagnated, its that the current policies and prices of running a highstreet shop in any half-decent area of town are very harsh in today's world.

Granted hobbyshops don't tend to have to compete with the super buying and pricing wars that supermarkets generate; but at the same time they were always shops that had lower footfall of customers. Sure some of those customers spent a lot when they did come in, but they were never turning over fast sales on a daily basis (unless in very affluent areas). So the current highstreet climate is very hard on them.


It's why Magic the Gathering is the lifeblood of many hobbyshops for geeks today - because the whole structure of MTG generates sales on its own. A product that re-releases itself three or four times a year; cycles its viability so that each annual period you're required to buy into a whole new suit of cards; and that's without accessories and all the stuff that goes with it. Plus a card pack is cheap so you can feed casual buying more easily.
Even if everyone at the club bought their decks online there's still formats like booster draft that help to generate continual sales.

As much as wargamers might complain, wargames are a poor product for a highstreet shop - lower volume of sale; much higher stocking volume and stocking cost.




So yes to repeat you are not required to support your local store; but if your store provides a club, and it sells at least at rrp or lower and if they are a friendly positive atmosphere that draws more new people into the game - then it is a local resource and it benefits you that the store remains open; thus it makes sense to, where possible, pay and support your store.

As said consider suggesting that they have sale periods or a loyalty system or other such mechanism in order to try and further promote direct local sales. Heck club membership could come with a discount if they wanted. Join the club; get cheaper minis; and be encouraged to game and join into activities.
I've even seen stores run event evenings like painting or assembly classes with a modest fee charged per-person.


What you've just explained is why a highstreet shop cant compete with an online shop selling model stock.....

Im well aware of the costs. I stand by my statement.

Its not a customers responsibility to account for a shop's lack of diversification and innovation.

You just mentioned like 4 things a FLGS can do to increase profitability, intelligent marketing doesn't cost a lot of money and sore location isn't the major factor it used to be.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






I do not pay club dues - but yes you should spend money there.

If you don't want to break the budget to impulse buy 2k points of Eldar - you can still spend $100~ on the codex/supplies/maybe a few characters at your store. At least paints/glues/a box a month at minimum


 
   
 
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