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2011/11/18 17:33:10
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Replies to a couple of Just Dave's questions. Just my humble opinion, naturally...
Spoiler:
- Severian (the overly stereotypical lone wolf), when can we expect to find out what happened to him? (I'd assume in the next short story collection)
- How did Dhakal A) make it out of the temple and B) whos geneseed did he take?
(B) I assume that Dhakal killed Severian and stole his geneseed. Recall how he needed the geneseed to be "fresh". All of the other Outcast Dead died in the temple or were cremated before the big show-down. That only leaves Severian.
(A) He slipped out when the show-down started, I assume.
-How did Ghota (who may or may not have been a Thunderwarrior, I'm not sure) manage to take on almost the entire outcast dead? Including Tagore, who...
- ... managed to rip the spine out of a fully armoured and armed Custodian, but then get beaten by Ghota and Nagasena?!
I do think that Dhakal and Ghota are the last of the Thunderwarriors. Recall when the two are talking, one of them says something along the lines that the Emperor abandoned "us".
He was able to fight to a stale-mate in the first encounter because the entire outcast dead just fought 30 modified humans and were spent/wounded at the time.
Also, Nagasena didn't beat Tagore. He held him off until Tagore was shot from behind. Nagasena played keep-away until Tagore finally got his hands on him, then BLAMMO.
- What was the Crusader Host? Why were they imprisoned? How come there were astartes from loyalist Leigons imprisoned with them too?
Yeah, I would have liked a bit more information on that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/18 17:34:57
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2011/11/18 17:48:55
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
I'm pretty certain that the gene seed was taken from the marines who died in the temple at the end, IIRC there's a line about how Dorn sees they've been torn open/similar and then he gets distracted.
I reckon ( ) this isn't the last we'll see of the Luna Wolf astartes.
As to the Crusader Host.. dunno really. Could just be a throw away idea which they may, or may not, return to later. Or I wonder if in fact they might wind up being involved in the founding of the Grey Knights in some way perhaps ?
I enjoyed Outcast Dead, but I think it was solid rather than stellar. Deliverance Lost is better IMO.
Speaking of which, Mr. Thorpe has selected a winner for the aforementioned competition, congrats to him, and posted the following snippet from Deliverance Lost to tease and tantalise us..
.. it's a pretty cool bit too IMO.
Spoiler:
There was almost no light at all. Something glittered through a crack in the rocks, providing just enough of a glow for him to make out the outline of the objects around him. There was something half-buried in the rubble behind the boy, cracked and distorted by an immense impact, shattered glass spread across the uneven floor.
The light glinted from one thousand and eighty-six shards.
He wondered if that was important, and decided it wasn’t. What was important was that the air was breathable, well within tolerable limits, and the gravity a little less than… Less than what? What did ‘Earth-normal’ mean? His thoughts were still scattered. He understood gravity, and if asked could have written out many long equations regarding the calculation of its strength and effect, but it was just one fragment of information tossed haphazardly across his mind, like the shining glass pieces strewn over the floor.
There was quite a lot of nitrogen in the air.
How did he know that? He took another deep breath, and came to the same conclusion. He just knew it to be true, just as he also detected a higher concentration of carbon dioxide. Both of these facts hovered in his thoughts, before a connection was made and a conclusion surfaced.
An artificial atmosphere.
It was by no means a definitive conclusion, but seemed a safe assumption given the other environmental factors his body had been steadily assessing in the few moments since he had awoken in this dark place.
There was definitely a generator close by; he could sense the electromagnetic disturbance emitted from its coils.
The source of the light strobed at a particular frequency that resonated with the generator coils. That was how he knew the light was electrically generated, which was confirmed by his analysis of the spectrum of light falling onto his enhanced retinas.
It was very disturbing.
He had no memory of this place at all. In fact, all he could recollect was soft warmth, some muffled background whirrs and clicks, and a dull light permeating a layer of liquid. Not at all like this cold, dry, black place.
And some voices; disturbing, demented voices that hovered on the edge of memory. He could not recall what they had said, but was left with an uneasy feeling of defiance and distrust.
Air moisture was also quite high. Combined with the low temperature, he was forced to conclude that he was close to ice of some kind. He noticed his breath formed vaporous tendrils against the flickering gleam.
He remembered his ears, surprised that he had not paid attention to them sooner.
There were sounds nearby; sounds that did not seem artificial in origin; sounds that reminded him of occasional visitations while he had been growing and learning. Human sounds.
Voices.
He could understand the concept of language. He knew seven-thousand six-hundred and forty-one languages, dialects, argots and cants from across the Old Empire. He was not sure how he knew them, and was trying work out into which of them the words he heard could be categorised. There was something of a Pan-Sannamic lilt to the words, but their expression was harshly pronounced. He could not identify the particular sub-strand of the idiom, but it was not so great that he could not form a cognitive appreciation. In short, he decided what they were speaking and listened in.
“Near four hundred dead, at least.”
“Four hundred less mouths to feed,” said another voice. “Least, that’s the way they’ll see it.”
“These arc-drills are not meant for icework,” said another. “This was bound to happen.”
“Quit gossiping and start digging!” This was spat, filled with false authority. He could hear the trembling beneath the vehemence, the edge of fear that lurked in the speaker’s subconscious.
There came a high-pitched whining, and a flickering red light shone through the tiny gap while the rock started to vibrate fractionally more.
He waited, apprehensive but intrigued.
The laser drill – of some design of which he was not certain – crept closer and closer. Rock splintered and the light flooded in as the chamber was breached. He took in the scene in an instant. A crowd of humans dressed in shabby blue overalls, seven male and three female, were directing the laser, five of them steering its head, another five on the tracked cart behind. Their age was indeterminate, obliterated by obvious signs of malnourishment and hard labour. Creased, leathery skin, cracked lips, sunken eyes gave them all an aged appearance that was probably beyond their chronological existence.
There was also a child with them. A female infant, clinging to the leg of one of the women riding on the traction cart that propelled the drillhead. She had long blonde hair and a narrow face with large lips and bright blue eyes. She seemed very thin, as fragile as an icicle. She was covered in rock dust like all of the others, but had smeared it away from her forehead with a wipe of her hand, revealing skin that was unhealthily pale.
Every one of them had ceased working and was now staring at him. He swiftly concluded that they had not intended to find him, and he wondered why his presence here was a surprise. It was another vexing question.
“What’s stopping you?” Another male, bigger built and better fed than the others, stepped from behind the mining cart. He wore trousers and jacket of dark blue, covered with a film of dust. His feet were booted, the thick footwear capped with metal at toe and heel. His face was concealed behind the tinted visor of a helmet, and in his hand he carried a whip whose handle was heavy enough to serve as a cudgel. The man stopped in his tracks as he also saw what was in the pocket chamber that had been breached. “How the…?”
The adults, the ones in the coveralls with the tools, started jabbering amongst themselves, almost too fast for him to understand. The one with the whip, the one with the false authority in his voice, pushed to the front. The small girl had dropped down from the cart and was walking through the breach into the chamber.
“Get back,” said the uniformed man, snatching hold of the girl’s hair to drag her from the gap.
He decided he did not like the man with the whip. The girl’s shriek was full of pain and fear, cutting through his thoughts, like a hot knife touching a nerve.
He stood up and walked towards the group. They backed away from him, still whispering and muttering in fear. The man who had hurt the girl stood his ground, pushing the infant aside. The man lunged forward to grab him, but he moved so slowly it was easy to avoid the outstretching hand. The boy nimbly stepped around the flailing grasp of the guard and grabbed the wrist in both hands. It snapped easily, bringing a howl of pain from the man.
The bullying man reared up as his shattered hand flopped loosely at the end of his arm, bringing back the whip in the other. The barbed tip of the lash cracked forward, but it was a simple enough matter to elude it and snatch up the end of the whip in his fist. The man laughed, partly in hysteria, and yanked, trying to unbalance him. The boy spread his legs and held firm, jarring the guard’s arm, before pulling back. Rather than release his grip, the guard was hauled from his feet, landing face first in the dust and rocks in front of the others.
Pacing forward, the boy saw the look of surprise, terror and hope in the eyes of the workers. The little girl smiled at him, even as tears streaked the grime on her face. He wanted to make her happy, to give her something as a sign that everything would be alright.
“What’s your name?” she asked. “Mine is Nasturi. Nasturi Ephrenia.”
He grabbed the helmeted head of the guard, twisted and gave a pull, ripping it free. He offered it up to the girl, who laughed even as the adults started to cry out in panic. He saw himself reflected in the visor and realised the reason for the alarm he had caused.
He was nude, and clothed in the body of a child, no older than Ephrenia. Blood was spattered across his snow-white skin, his crimson-splashed face framed with a shock of coal-black hair. His eyes were utterly black, darker than night.
He searched for an answer to the girl’s question, as blood dribbled down his naked arms. Only one reply seemed appropriate, drawn up from the depths of embryonic memory.
“Nineteen,” he said. “I am number nineteen.”
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2011/11/18 20:09:05
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
I agree with Just Dave, it was a great read and an absolute page turner at first. However, it did become a little formulaic at the end, almost like McNeil just slipped into cruise control, and there are various inconsistencies. The timeline issue is an absolute howler, especially when you consider that McNeil wrote False Gods and Thousand Sons, the other 2 books that reference the event (funny that all the factory workers and plebians are walking around on earth at the start saying, "oi guvnor, you 'eard that 'orus has renounced 'is oaths to the Emperuh and is on 'is way 'ere?" - meanwhile, Magnus sits in his tower constructing the most powerful spells of all time to tell the Emperor about this fact! ) You can imagine a Monty Python sketch of that bit with Terry Jones as the high-voiced cleaning woman, and John Cleese as Magnus.
Spoiler:
I have read that this section was meant to be a glimpse back into the past (and in fact the sequence of Magnus sending the message is copied word for word from A Thousand Sons). However, that explanation doesn't work as subsequent events in the books (everything going mental on Terra as a result of Magnus' spell, and ultimately Kai being given the secret), are all part of the later time line. Also, this is nothing done in the narrative to indicate that we are looking back through the mists of time. I hope they aren't going to insert any time-travelling tomfoolery into the series, as in the words of O'Brian, "I hates temporal mechanics".
Having said that I did enjoy it. I think the moment where Targore, the World Eater Sergeant, is sat next to a young boy in the temple and is uncomfortable because he doesn't know how start a conversation - I think the image of that is quite possibly one of the best moments in the series so far, and a nice break from the avalanche of horrific deaths this book contains (I've noticed a trend with McNeils books, I think he is basically the John Woo of Black Library, the kill count in just this or something like Iron Warrior are more than the rest of every other BL book combined )
So point by point on Just Dave and Kronk's comments
Spoiler:
kronk wrote:Replies to a couple of Just Dave's questions. Just my humble opinion, naturally...
[spoiler]
(B) I assume that Dhakal killed Severian and stole his geneseed. Recall how he needed the geneseed to be "fresh". All of the other Outcast Dead died in the temple or were cremated before the big show-down. That only leaves Severian.
(A) He slipped out when the show-down started, I assume.
I agree with reds8n, I would be very surprised if Severian didn't feature in a future story (or more likely, an audio book, which we will now all be obliged to buy )
++EDIT++ sorry fouled up the quotes a bit here, my comments are the ones in the bigger grey box.
[spoiler]
-How did Ghota (who may or may not have been a Thunderwarrior, I'm not sure) manage to take on almost the entire outcast dead? Including Tagore, who...
- ... managed to rip the spine out of a fully armoured and armed Custodian, but then get beaten by Ghota and Nagasena?!
I think definitely an (ex) Thunderwarrior. We haven't really read much about these guys before, but presumably they are as hard as an Astartes going on the combat in this book. It mentions that they were as suited for war on Terra as the Astartes were suited as fighting between worlds.
I actually thought this brought up some interesting comparisons to the reasons for the traitors turning against the Emperor. The thunderwarriors had fought for Terra, and then been discarded afterwards, and if the Astartes Legions had been aware of this then they must surely have started to be concerned as the Crusade neared its end. Great to see McNeil brought this issue up, and I hope more is made of it in the future.
Artharva's making the brain reanimate was pretty dire IMHO. Furthermore, he could create a kine shield to deflect A LOT (100's?) of Autocannons, but couldn't do more than flick a fireball at Ghota or couldn't rip the enemy to pieces within the Temple?
Going on the power of the Thousand Sons in the different books that have been written so far, I'm amazed the Emperor just didn't use them instead of the other 20 legions.
I also was not sure what to make of the Emperor and what some of the visions said about him?
Yes this is possibly the most detailed look we have had of the Emperor so far. Also, that were others who had had similar powers to him (I forget the name), but they had been destroyed in war thousands of years previously, during the 'psi-wars'.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/11/18 22:16:47
Just Dave wrote:Finished Outcast Dead last night (probably give it a 7 or 8 out of 10 personally), so my contribution to the current spoilered conversation:
Spoiler:
I agree with the timeline predicament, however Temujin, you mentioned a couple of times about Horus' relation to getting Russ to attack Magnus/"How could Horus have leant on Russ to go rough on Magnus when his treachery was already common knowledge?" and I feel I should point out how (IIRC) in Prospero Burns/ A Thousand Sons this isn't actually mentioned and this may now be old fluff/inaccurate. It does describe however how apparently Valdor encouraged Russ to be a bit heavy-handed, which I think may also be hinted at in Outcast.
Nonetheless, IIRC Magnus' 1st psychic naughty was to try and prevent Horus from turning to Chaos whilst in the Davinite temple. Whilst this isn't a naughty as such, it didn't occur that long before his message to the Emperor IIRC, so when he sent his message to the Emperor - to warn the Emperor of the betrayal - it shouldn't have been common knowledge like Outcast suggests.
I can't remember however, but it should mention or suggest in Prospero Burns whether or not Russ knew of Horus' betrayal when he attacked Magnus - which old(er) fluff suggests he should not have - but I think it mentions it in Prospero Burns that he finds out after the battle.
The only way I can see that this may make sense is if Magnus was indeed 'delayed' in the warp or something, but I never got the impression that was the case and that wouldn't explain how Russ may not have known of Horus' betrayal.
Hopefully that all made sense and at least added something to the discussion...
Oh, and someone mentioned Curze being dead which allowed the Dark Angels to return to Terra. IIRC, Curze's death didn't occur til post-heresy.
Spoiler:
Horus' encouragement is not mentioned in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but it is mentioned in False Gods, and takes place before Istvaan. You might be able to worm your way out of direct contradictions in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns by basically writing off all of the characters involved as idiots, but False Gods and The Outcast Dead completely contradict each other, with no room for doubt. The authors of these books should really have worked together more closely *brain explodes*.
2011/11/19 02:07:37
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Horus' encouragement is not mentioned in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but it is mentioned in False Gods, and takes place before Istvaan. You might be able to worm your way out of direct contradictions in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns by basically writing off all of the characters involved as idiots, but False Gods and The Outcast Dead completely contradict each other, with no room for doubt. The authors of these books should really have worked together more closely *brain explodes*.
Both of those books (and also A Thousand Sons) are written by Graham McNeil!
I'm at a loss to explain it, but God knows how many books a year he is putting out (at least a 7 or 8 on the 'StephenKingometer'?) he must have just lost track of what he is writing or will write..
Horus' encouragement is not mentioned in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but it is mentioned in False Gods, and takes place before Istvaan. You might be able to worm your way out of direct contradictions in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns by basically writing off all of the characters involved as idiots, but False Gods and The Outcast Dead completely contradict each other, with no room for doubt. The authors of these books should really have worked together more closely *brain explodes*.
It's not out right stated in a Thousand Sons but it is heavily implied, nothing at all in Prospero Burns though
Spoiler:
"He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction." - A Thousand Sons, Page 535.
Pacific wrote:
Both of those books (and also A Thousand Sons) are written by Graham McNeil!
And he wrote Fulgrim too, which has it mentioned a few times in.
Lets have a look what ones I can find it mentioned in. Not just ones by Mr McNeil, although he seems to be them main person referring to it.
The section from False Gods
Spoiler:
"But what of Magnus?" asked Maloghurst urgently. "What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?"
Horus smiled. "Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus' treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe that I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of effort." - False Gods Page 405.
In Galaxy in Flames
Spoiler:
‘Magnus lives,’ snarled Horus. ‘Then he may yet be a danger.’ ‘No,’ assured Erebus. ‘The spires of Prospero have fallen and the warp echoes with the powerful sorcery Magnus used to save his warriors and escape.’ - Galaxy in Flames Page 135.
And finally in Fulgrim
Spoiler:
‘I see,’ said Horus, ‘and the Council’s concern is simply with Angron’s bloodlust?’ ‘Not entirely,’ he replied. ‘As I said, the Wolf of Fenris has been despatched to Prospero in order to bring Magnus back to Terra, though for what purpose I do not know.’ - Fulgrim Page 278
Spoiler:
Soon, only the Sons of Horus remained in orbit over Isstvan V. ... ‘What do you bring me, Mal?’ asked Horus. ‘A communication, my lord,’ replied his equerry. ‘From whom?’ Maloghurst smiled. ‘It’s from Magnus the Red.’ - Fulgrim Page 411
I do hope Mr McNeil clears it up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/21 10:25:09
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2011/11/21 11:49:50
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Pilau Rice wrote:I do hope Mr McNeil clears it up.
Just to add to the quotes that you made, it's important to consider when they occurred in relation to the two key events we're discussing.
Spoiler:
They all unambiguously place Magnus' warning before the dropsite massacre.
I don't anticipate any comment on this mess from Graham McNeil or Black Library. What would they even say? When I first read the book I hoped that I could go online and discover that my confusion could be cleared up and everything would slot into place again, but that's clearly impossible once you take the time to lay everything out from the timeline established by the rest of the series. Aaron Dembski-Bowden's disappointing attempt to deflect it with the old 'the warp did it' routine was the first time I ever disliked something he wrote. That kind of approach would be difficult to bear even if it did account for the discrepancy, which even in the most sympathetic reading it does not and cannot. On the one hand I would like to see someone from the Horus Heresy team address the issue frankly, but I don't think there's anything they could say that would undo the harm that this (I must repeat, otherwise enjoyable) book has done. McNeil could come clean and admit to making a collosal error, or the whole business could be completely ignored and filed under things that will simply not be referred to in any future book. I would settle for either approach, as long as future books don't defiantly cling to some doomed attempt to assert this botched timeline as the new canon.
2011/11/21 11:58:00
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
They all unambiguously place Magnus' warning before the dropsite massacre.
All bar the last comment in Fulgrim, which is received after Istvaan V.
Temujin wrote:On the one hand I would like to see someone from the Horus Heresy team address the issue frankly, but I don't think there's anything they could say that would undo the harm that this (I must repeat, otherwise enjoyable) book has done. McNeil could come clean and admit to making a collosal error, or the whole business could be completely ignored and filed under things that will simply not be referred to in any future book. I would settle for either approach, as long as future books don't defiantly cling to some doomed attempt to assert this botched timeline as the new canon.
Perhaps he'll address and correct it in another book, or maybe it will change to during the dropsite massacre or maybe after the Heresy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/21 11:58:19
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2011/11/21 17:33:55
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
It’s time once again to show some fantastic new artwork, and today we return to Craftworld Alaitoc and the cover of Gav Thorpe’s forthcoming Path of the Outcast. Like the first two books in the series, this is by Neil Roberts and focuses on one of the characters from the series, in this case the eponymous outcast Aradryan.
While the muted colour palette is a departure from the bright colours of the previous books in the series (Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer), this is very much a follow-on from those pieces and is full of incredible little details. I particularly like the beautifully-patterned (and blood-spattered) hood, and the utterly alien look in Aradryan’s eyes...
If you like Neil’s work (and why wouldn’t you?), don’t forget that several of his equally brilliant Horus Heresy covers are available as massive glossy posters from blacklibrary.com.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2011/11/23 18:16:27
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Very much looking forward to the next eldar book. While the seer book turned out to be alright in the end, I just wasnt a big fan of that whiny main character!!
The dark eldar one has potential as well...
Still catching up on my atlas infernal ... pretty good read so far.
2011/11/24 07:32:03
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Alpharius wrote:I'm still not sure where I stand on DELIVERANCE LOST and what I think about it.
It changes a lot too - especially Corax's post Heresy actions, I'd think.
I've just finished it and I did like it. The only thing that I can criticize about Mr Thorpes work is that his writing isn't very colourful and feels a bit over factual to me, maybe a little boring at times. I enjoy his writing style in the Chaos Codex as it feels like it should be in a codex, kind of the encyclopedia for the army, if you get my meaning, but it's a bit flat for an actual novel.
It was enjoyed though and thought out well. The Alpha Legion were done well I thought and it was good to see the continuation on from Legion. I was a bit baffled at the relationship between Horus and Alpharius as they were supposed to be pretty close, after Horus being the one to discover him and all. I suppose it could be down to Horus being all broody and eeeevil.
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2011/11/24 13:27:44
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
They've changed a lot of what we used to know - the old Index Astartes article doesn't fully apply anymore.
Also,
Spoiler:
it is good to see the Alpha Legion working for themselves, and not in lock step with the Cabal. Though right now their end game seems a bit obvious, confusing and against what I think they are/should be really aiming for.
2011/11/24 13:33:13
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Alpharius wrote:They've changed a lot of what we used to know - the old Index Astartes article doesn't fully apply anymore.
I dunno, we'll have to wait and see what happens. Omegon might have a different take on what to do from Alpharius and the outcome of the Heresy might lead to the Alphas of the Index Astartes. Hopefully as I really like the IA articles
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2011/11/25 12:53:29
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
We’ve heard a lot about Gav Thorpe this week. On Monday we showed a trailer for his new Horus Heresy novel. An extract from one of his Age of Legend tales appeared on Tuesday, Wednesday brought you the artwork for his next Path of the Eldar novel. We thought it was about time we heard from the man himself.
We prised him away from his typewriter for long enough to bring you this interview.
Your first Horus Heresy novel is out soon and you’ve been writing a novella for next year’s The Primarchs anthology. How do you approach the Horus Heresy setting as opposed to the more firmly established universe of Warhammer 40,000?
First of all, you have to remember that everyone is a lot less dogmatic and superstitious. When you are steeped in the ritual and doctrine of Warhammer 40,000, it's easy to forget that these are more enlightened times (on the whole), but also somewhat naive times too. As the series progresses, the Imperium's knowledge of, and reaction to, Chaos will be evolving, and so one thing that I have spent some time thinking about is just how much the Space Marines and Primarchs know about the warp and the relationship it has with their universe. They have navigators and astropaths and other psykers, and in ‘The Lion’ there is an encounter with a foe they do not expect or know at all, which leads to some awkward questions about the Dark Angels Librarius and the Edict of Nikaea...
The ‘Path of the Eldar’ series is coming to a close with Path of the Outcast. What can we expect from this final book in the trilogy?
Folks who have read the series so far will know that Aradryan leaves Alaitoc and, through means unknown, manages to annoy a bunch of humans so much that they attack the craftworld. In Path of the Outcast fans will learn why he has to leave Alaitoc, and just what it is that Aradryan gets up to to bring down the wrath of the Imperium on his home. As the conclusion to the trilogy, Path of the Outcast draws together all of the threads of the series, and ultimately resolves the battle for Alaitoc. His adventures take in exodites, dark eldar, harlequins and corsairs, not to mention a few rangers - I tried to get in pretty much everything that isn't craftworld-based.
The most important job of any Horus Heresy book is to add a layer of character and narrative to the existing storyline, examining not just what happened but why. You have to make sure the readers get caught up in the story enough that even those who know how the wider tale plays out can forget that for a while and just enjoy the ride. It is a time of growing darkness, an innocence lost in some ways, and that darkness has to settle on every character caught up in the fallout of Horus's actions.
The blog earlier this week mentioned a top secret novella project. What (if anything) can you tell us about this?
Sorry Gav, if I let you tell them about the new novella, Marneus Calgar will have my head...
Deliverance Lost is available to preorder now. If you order it today, you’ll get it in time for Christmas. What could be more Christmassy than cosying up by the fire and reading about the greatest tragedy in human history, twenty-eight thousand years before it happens? It sure beats eating sprouts. (There are no sprouts in the 41st Millennium. The main sprout-growing human colony was destroyed by an ork Waaagh in the year 13,000 and the vegetable became extinct.)
Be sure to check back with the blog on Monday, because we’ll have a video interview with author Graham McNeill.
Have a good weekend.
This weekend sees the Planetary Empires event at WW, during which..
If you're in Warhammer World this weekend, be sure to check out the Black Library stand in the gaming hall.
This is your first chance to get your hands on prerelease copies of upcoming products:
Blood Angels: The Second Omnibus, collecting the Blood Angels novels Red Fury and Black Tide, by New York Times Bestselling author James Swallow
Labyrinth of Sorrows, a Warhammer 40,000 audio drama in which the Raven Guard swoop back into action alongside their suspicious allies, the Brazen Minotaurs.
The new Ciaphas Cain novel from Sandy Mitchell, The Last Ditch, as well as the softback edition of The Emperor’s Finest.
Chris Wraight’s new Warhammer novel Luthor Huss will be on sale, featuring the Empire’s most pious champion and his stand against the forces of Chaos.
Also on sale: a selection of limited edition and Direct Exclusive products.
The Black Library stand will be open Friday from 18:00 – 21:30
And on Saturday from 08:00 – 14:30
Which is nice.
Really looking forward to the Huss book there.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2011/11/28 17:44:35
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
A group of Space Marines breaking out of a jail that makes Alcatraz look like a well fortified sandcastle, and escaping with a message that will doom and/or save mankind…
If that isn’t awesome, call me a heretic.
I’m sure many of you have already eagerly read The Outcast Dead, the seventeenth instalment in the Horus Heresy series (and if you haven’t, I’d add it to your Christmas list pronto). We caught up with the author, Graham McNeill, to chat about writing in the epoch-shattering times of the Horus Heresy, as well as a couple of other projects on the horizon.
If you’ve already read the Outcast Dead and can’t wait for more, you can preorder the next novel in the Horus Heresy series, Gav Thorpe’s Deliverance Lost, which will be shipping within a week.
Finally a quick reminder, if any were needed, that Christmas is fast approaching. Here are the last shipping dates for those of you wanting your books in time for the 25th of December.
Last Shipping dates for Christmas
Standard Delivery:
Thursday 1st December – Australasia, Asia, Far East (including Japan), Africa, the Caribbean, South & Central America,APO addresses and static BFPOs
Monday 5th December – Eastern Europe, USA and Canada
Thursday 8th December – Western Europe
Tuesday 13th December – UK and Operational BFPOs
Express Delivery:
Tuesday 13th December – Worldwide
Thursday 15th December - UK
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2011/11/28 19:35:08
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Angel Exterminatus sounds interesting, it'll be good not only Perturabo, but his relationship with another primarch.
Emperor's Children performing an exorcism? This sounds almost amusing (THE POWER OF VICE COMPELS YE!), but I look forward to having another look at how the III Legion behave after their Slaaneshification (it's a real word, honest!). Obviously, we got to see a bit of it at the end of Fulgrim, but we never really got to see how the newly Slaaneshified astartes interact with one another, as the focus of the last couple of chapters was what the noise marines were like in battle, rather than what they were like in their down-time.
"I reached down through my trousers, and groped for something concealed in my sock... it was my foot."
I lurk, therefore I am. DOOM DOLPHINS!
d-USA wrote: "Somewhere is a creepy old man on an assembly line, putting together hobby knives, chanting evil invocations and curses while muttering "Thumbs! Thumbs for the Thumb God!"
2011/11/29 17:18:23
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Pilau Rice wrote:I do hope Mr McNeil clears it up.
Just to add to the quotes that you made, it's important to consider when they occurred in relation to the two key events we're discussing.
Spoiler:
They all unambiguously place Magnus' warning before the dropsite massacre.
I don't anticipate any comment on this mess from Graham McNeil or Black Library. What would they even say? When I first read the book I hoped that I could go online and discover that my confusion could be cleared up and everything would slot into place again, but that's clearly impossible once you take the time to lay everything out from the timeline established by the rest of the series. Aaron Dembski-Bowden's disappointing attempt to deflect it with the old 'the warp did it' routine was the first time I ever disliked something he wrote. That kind of approach would be difficult to bear even if it did account for the discrepancy, which even in the most sympathetic reading it does not and cannot. On the one hand I would like to see someone from the Horus Heresy team address the issue frankly, but I don't think there's anything they could say that would undo the harm that this (I must repeat, otherwise enjoyable) book has done. McNeil could come clean and admit to making a collosal error, or the whole business could be completely ignored and filed under things that will simply not be referred to in any future book. I would settle for either approach, as long as future books don't defiantly cling to some doomed attempt to assert this botched timeline as the new canon.
I thought that was the point...
Spoiler:
I thought the time line was as follows:
A) Nikea Council disbands the use of psychers and sorcery.
B) Horus gets struck by a Demon Sword and lay dying. He is transported to Davin where the "people" (they were described as Beastmen) and Erebus were able to perform some dark rites to commune with the chaos gods.
C) During the dark rites to revive Horus, Magnus confronts Horus in his dream as a wolf. He is trying to lead away from the path of chaos. Eventually, Erebus/chaos gods are able to drive Magnus away from Horus in the dream. Horus falls and becomes a traitor. He awakens and is healed from his injuries and leaves Davin. At this point in time Magnus knows of Horus's treachery. He works on a spell to contact the Emperor.
D) Horus begins to cull his legion unbeknownst to the Mournival. There were at least 2 battles mentioned prior to the Legion moving to the Istavaan System. Loken even commented that the casualties and objectives were poorly planned. During this time, he has contacted other primarchs whom he feels he can sway to his side and specifically contacts Mortarion, Lorgar (via Erebus), Angron, and Fulgrim and these Primarchs begin secretly culling their legions. He has contact with the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors as well as these.
E) Magnus warns the Emperor and sets off all of the bells and whistles on Terra.
F) The Emperor sends Logan and the Space Wolves to bring Magnus to the Emperor.
G) Horus convinces Logan that bringing Magnus back to Terra would not be the right thing to do and convinces him to openly fight Magnus and the Thousand Sons.
H) Horus hears of the rebellion in the Istavaan System and orders the Death Guard, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children to join him in putting the rebellion down.
I) Istavaan III is attacked. Horus makes his move and culls the remaining loyalists from his and the other legions with him. The Emperor knows something bad has happened but is unsure as to what has transpired.
J) Prospero is attacked and destroyed by the Space Wolves and Magnus uses his sorcery to suck his legion into the eye of terror.
K) The 4 legions that have renounced the Emperor begin to fortify Istavaan V.
L) A small contingent of Death Guard are able to break away from the fleet on the Eisenstein. They are able to meet up with Rogul Dorn who brings the dire news to the Emperor.
M) Dorn begins to fortify Terra. The Emperor plans to send 7 Legions to put an end to Horus's Treason. The Emperor commands the Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors to end Horus's Rebellion.
N) The Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were the first to arrive due to the warp storms. These three Legions made first contact. When the 4 other Legions arrived and started to join the fight, Horus's trap had sprung and the loyalist Legions were caught and sustained heavy casualties.
O) Eventually these Legions were able to break through and return back to the Emperor but did not play a substantial part in the Heresy due to the Drop Site Massacre.
P) Horus gets word of Magnus's Legion being disabled. In one fell swoop, Horus was able to remove 4 loyalist Legions from taking a major parts in the Heresy. Also at this time, he had spread the loyalist primarch's forces thin by having them spread out amongst several systems or engaged in multiple crusades.
Q) The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion were responsible for keeping the Ultramarines out of the fight as much as possible. The Night Lords were responsible for keeping the Dark Angels out of the fight as much as possible. This left the remaining 5 traitor legions (Sons of Horus, Emperor's Childredn, Death Guard, World Eaters, and Iron Warriors) to contend with 3 loyalist legions (Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels) as they made their way to Terra. The Space Wolves move to help the Dark Angels so both Legions can join the fighting on Terra.
Maybe I'm wrong but this is the time line I've got in my head at least...
[/sarcasm]
2011/11/29 21:39:57
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Pilau Rice wrote:I think he's pretty much on the mark. Nikaea wasn't long after Ullanor.
Unless you're Dark Angels as written by Mike Lee, in which case, Event A never ever happened.
"I reached down through my trousers, and groped for something concealed in my sock... it was my foot."
I lurk, therefore I am. DOOM DOLPHINS!
d-USA wrote: "Somewhere is a creepy old man on an assembly line, putting together hobby knives, chanting evil invocations and curses while muttering "Thumbs! Thumbs for the Thumb God!"
2011/11/30 15:43:00
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread II, aka Rise of the Bibliophile
Pilau Rice wrote:I think he's pretty much on the mark. Nikaea wasn't long after Ullanor.
Unless you're Dark Angels as written by Mike Lee, in which case, Event A never ever happened.
I guess we're referring to Fallen Angels?
Does it just not get mentioned at all in that. My reasoning was that the Dark Angels on Caliban were pretty much left in the dark (heh) on pretty much everything that the crusading Dark Angels were doing or were told to do. If I remember correctly then the Lion doesn't have an Librarians with him?
) this isn't the last we'll see of the Luna Wolf astartes.
) You can imagine a Monty Python sketch of that bit with Terry Jones as the high-voiced cleaning woman, and John Cleese as Magnus. 
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