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having played against DG termies yesterday I'm pretty sure that's how they should work for the termy platform as a whole

5++ .. like what's the point ... what AP-4 or more weapons are so prevalent that this provides any benefit? 4++ might mean something

Feel no Pain would be boss.

and -1 to hit on their weapons ... whut?

so yeah there's a few different things that would need fixing but there's a start right there

5++ is a holdover from AP2 being an issue.

Martel732 wrote:


As with everything in 8th, making them cheaper is the way to make them more worthwhile. Lower cost fixes all in 8th.

Just like increasing cost for undercosted units though. The castellan is the meta breaking at the point that every player builds his list in order to 1-shot a knight. Make it 900 pts, which is where it belongs. Fixed.

13ppm marines aren't a problem, even if they are overpriced it's just for 1-2ppm which means 30-40 points saved in a 2000 points list at most if they get a price decrease. The problem is those 4-6ppm dudes that not only unlock CPs for dirt cheap, but are also quite resilient against anti infantry weapons and have their decent (if not very good) firepower. Make guardsmen 7ppm, problem fixed. 4ppm was ok when most weapons were AP5 or better, blasts and templates used to deal more hits than the same ones using the D6 system, CPs didn't exist and S3-4 couldn't do anything against most vehicles. If a former 4ppm dude is now 2x more effective (if not even more) than it used to be it should definitely get a significant price hike, not just a +1ppm.

The answer isn't to make marines 9-10ppm but to make no troops cheaper than 7ppm, unless it's something very squishy like T2 no save and with little offensive output, or a typical T3 dude but melee only. Alternatively make guardsmen T2 no save, eventually changing their lasgun to a single shot rifle. Even at 9-10ppm a 4ppm guardsmen would be a better choice for an imperium army. If guardsmen were 7ppm and marines like 12ppm they'd both be interesting choices, maybe not exactly at the same level but way closer than now. Units like scouts or rangers should be elites.

Going back to the topic I don't think termies are overpriced at all. In fact a dude with a PF and 3++ save can't be considered expensive at 34 points. It just doesn't have a role in armies that want to play as AM. I always compare termies to meganobz: the latter have the same cost (meganobz are actually 1ppm more expensive) and similar profile (+1S, W and A but no invuln and less free buffing auras than SM especially choppy ones like the wolves) but they do work, even if they aren't a top unit, because they have synergies with the rest of the army. Terminators usually don't. That's what would make them worthwhile. I strongly disagree with the concept of a 170 points unit being very good on its own, it should give its points back with some tactics around it, which means CPs invested on the unit, buffing auras and the support of other units that work within the same range.

Meganobz having 3 W is brilliant though. Die to dissy cannons half as fast.

Also LOL at saying the 5++ is a bonus for a 2+ model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying that the 170 point unit shouldn't just be good on its own is a real issue. Everything is being priced like you have an aura, except you pay even more for that aura.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also LOL at saying the 5++ is a bonus for a 2+ model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying that the 170 point unit shouldn't just be good on its own is a real issue. Everything is being priced like you have an aura, except you pay even more for that aura.

Well in fact 5++ is basically useless on a 2+ model since most of the anti tank weapons are AP-3 or even AP-2 which means that the standard armor is enough to give the model a 5+ or 4+ save, that 5++ is a legacy from older editions when AP2 weapons completely bypassed the 2+ save and that 5+ was a real bonus. I assumed 3++ base because for 2pts there's no reason not to take termies with shields. And even with the storm shield termies are cheaper than meganobz.

Yes, I don't think units should be very good on their own. IMHO 170 points for the actual stats of termies are already a good deal. To have better termies you should invest more (CPs, auras or supporting units) on them. I'm afraid we have different concepts of what is good, termies are already good with SS and PF, but to be a top unit they need to cost more somehow. Otherwise they'd be auto take and any auto take for armies that have lots of units are the result of a bad game design.

Wulfen are terrible alone, but they are amazing with supporting units because they buff them so they get more value and also desperately want the re-rolls in combat. Oh they also need a CP to outflank. Talos and grotesques have much more value with an haemonculus behind them, urien rakhart also give them +1S which is another huge buff. Litterally no one plays coven monsters without the buffing HQ. Orks are extremely CPs dependant, take lootas, a terrible overcosted that has no sense to exist for 5/7 clans and a mediocre unit for the other 2. But one of those clans can make them competitive with tons of CPs invested (6 per turn usually) and supporting units (a weirdboy and screening gretchins). Meganobz are mediocre without those 2 CPs invested on them to be tellyported and gain a lot by supporting characters. SW termies work decent because of the buffing auras.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz having 3 W is brilliant though. Die to dissy cannons half as fast.

SM termies tank those dissies with a 3++ though, meganobz only have 5+ to tank them. Against thunder hammers and other 3+ damage weapons that's no context here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also LOL at saying the 5++ is a bonus for a 2+ model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying that the 170 point unit shouldn't just be good on its own is a real issue. Everything is being priced like you have an aura, except you pay even more for that aura.

I think perhaps you missed the 'Holdover' part of the statement

Termies had a 2+ 5++ in 7th where AP2 bypassed their save entirely.

in the transition to 8th it has obviously been missed in design that the majority high damage weapons are AP-3 (Las cannons et al) and as such that's a 5+ save so the 5++ that they carried over is pretty much redundant.

not sure termies with 4++ is the way to go ... I'd prefer higher toughness and a 4+++ FNP vs single damage weapons.

 Blackie wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz having 3 W is brilliant though. Die to dissy cannons half as fast.

SM termies tank those dissies with a 3++ though, meganobz only have 5+ to tank them. Against thunder hammers and other 3+ damage weapons that's no context here.

But the TH/SS variant is quite a bit more expensive than a Meganob. You seriously need to stop thinking every Space Marine army is Space Wolves. Factions that don't have a history of being Marines +1 every single damn edition can't mix and match weapons and shields on Terminators at will.

Then there's the fact that the Meganobz have far superior delivery mechanisms.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blackie wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz having 3 W is brilliant though. Die to dissy cannons half as fast.

SM termies tank those dissies with a 3++ though, meganobz only have 5+ to tank them. Against thunder hammers and other 3+ damage weapons that's no context here.

But the TH/SS variant is quite a bit more expensive than a Meganob. You seriously need to stop thinking every Space Marine army is Space Wolves. Factions that don't have a history of being Marines +1 every single damn edition can't mix and match weapons and shields on Terminators at will.

Then there's the fact that the Meganobz have far superior delivery mechanisms.

I wasn't compare TH/SS to PKs, aka the units' loadouts, I was comparing the fact that 3++ termies can soak heavy hits like thunder hammers ones way better than meganobz. That's the difference between a 2+ save and a 2+ save with invuln, the latter can soak the dedicated anti tank very well, meganobz simply melt against anti tank weapons.

I also strongly disagree with the idea of SW being marines +1. SM were vastly superior in 7th thanks to their broken formations and actually no SW lists were top tiers, only soups with a single TWC deathstar and maybe some wulfen, but not a single pure SW list. In this edition if SW are SM+1 then ultramarines are SM+10. SM lists performed way better than SW at competitive levels so far, even after the SW codex dropped. BA aren't inferior to SW, they're probably superior.

Delivery mechanism is also the same one, a simple deepstrike. The meganobz one costs 2 CPs though, while the terminator one is free.

So Space Marines had Gladius (for ONE edition, mind you) and now you're convinced Space Wolves are never Space Marines +1?
You really need to do some critical thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also LOL at saying the 5++ is a bonus for a 2+ model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also saying that the 170 point unit shouldn't just be good on its own is a real issue. Everything is being priced like you have an aura, except you pay even more for that aura.

Well in fact 5++ is basically useless on a 2+ model since most of the anti tank weapons are AP-3 or even AP-2 which means that the standard armor is enough to give the model a 5+ or 4+ save, that 5++ is a legacy from older editions when AP2 weapons completely bypassed the 2+ save and that 5+ was a real bonus. I assumed 3++ base because for 2pts there's no reason not to take termies with shields. And even with the storm shield termies are cheaper than meganobz.

Yes, I don't think units should be very good on their own. IMHO 170 points for the actual stats of termies are already a good deal. To have better termies you should invest more (CPs, auras or supporting units) on them. I'm afraid we have different concepts of what is good, termies are already good with SS and PF, but to be a top unit they need to cost more somehow. Otherwise they'd be auto take and any auto take for armies that have lots of units are the result of a bad game design.

Wulfen are terrible alone, but they are amazing with supporting units because they buff them so they get more value and also desperately want the re-rolls in combat. Oh they also need a CP to outflank. Talos and grotesques have much more value with an haemonculus behind them, urien rakhart also give them +1S which is another huge buff. Litterally no one plays coven monsters without the buffing HQ. Orks are extremely CPs dependant, take lootas, a terrible overcosted that has no sense to exist for 5/7 clans and a mediocre unit for the other 2. But one of those clans can make them competitive with tons of CPs invested (6 per turn usually) and supporting units (a weirdboy and screening gretchins). Meganobz are mediocre without those 2 CPs invested on them to be tellyported and gain a lot by supporting characters. SW termies work decent because of the buffing auras.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz having 3 W is brilliant though. Die to dissy cannons half as fast.

SM termies tank those dissies with a 3++ though, meganobz only have 5+ to tank them. Against thunder hammers and other 3+ damage weapons that's no context here.

Literally all the other codices get units that work on their own (including the Wulfen you name dropped, because honestly synergy =/= a transport or using the strategem), so you would have to actually make several units worse than buffing Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also assuming Terminators have a 3++ needs to stop. Scarab Occult, Blightlords, Deathshroud, Paladins, Chaos Terminators, Tactical Terminators, the other two Mk Terminators...they don't have that.
There is clearly a universal problem you're ignoring because you're spoiled playing a faction that has almost never been bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So Space Marines had Gladius (for ONE edition, mind you) and now you're convinced Space Wolves are never Space Marines +1?
You really need to do some critical thinking.

Anything prior 7th edition is now 6-7+ years ago. SM in 7th had plenty of broken tools that SW didn't have: grav spam, skyhammer formation, invisibility, etc. In the entire 8th edition SM have been vastly superior than SW. And I'm not even that sure that in 6th SW were superior to other SM chapters, but I admit I'm not an expert of that edition since I've basically skipped it entirely.

So yeah, this +1 thing really belongs to some ancient past.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also assuming Terminators have a 3++ needs to stop. Scarab Occult, Blightlords, Deathshroud, Paladins, Chaos Terminators, Tactical Terminators, the other two Mk Terminators...they don't have that.
There is clearly a universal problem you're ignoring because you're spoiled playing a faction that has almost never been bad.

Well SM players always mention lootas as if they were bad moons only. Coven stuff as prophets of flesh only. Ravagers as black heart only with doom buff, etc.

If a faction has 45 units that look identical then the problem is that there are too many of them, and some of them should disappear. The thread's title is how to make termies worthwhile, it isn't about tactics involving the current units but it's about some proposed rules: my answer is to make termies like SW ones, just with a few small differences between the factions but still very similar. Simple. Just one unit of termies per faction, not 99 of them. Melee only (or mostly).

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So Space Marines had Gladius (for ONE edition, mind you) and now you're convinced Space Wolves are never Space Marines +1?
You really need to do some critical thinking.

Anything prior 7th edition is now 6-7+ years ago. SM in 7th had plenty of broken tools that SW didn't have: grav spam, skyhammer formation, invisibility, etc. In the entire 8th edition SM have been vastly superior than SW. And I'm not even that sure that in 6th SW were superior to other SM chapters, but I admit I'm not an expert of that edition since I've basically skipped it entirely.

So yeah, this +1 thing really belongs to some ancient past.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also assuming Terminators have a 3++ needs to stop. Scarab Occult, Blightlords, Deathshroud, Paladins, Chaos Terminators, Tactical Terminators, the other two Mk Terminators...they don't have that.
There is clearly a universal problem you're ignoring because you're spoiled playing a faction that has almost never been bad.

Well SM players always mention lootas as if they were bad moons only. Coven stuff as prophets of flesh only. Ravagers as black heart only with doom buff, etc.

If a faction has 45 units that look identical then the problem is that there are too many of them, and some of them should disappear. The thread's title is how to make termies worthwhile, it isn't about tactics involving the current units but it's about some proposed rules: my answer is to make termies like SW ones, just with a few small differences between the factions but still very similar. Simple. Just one unit of termies per faction, not 99 of them. Melee only (or mostly).

1. Nice revisionism. They didn't have Grav spam, they had Devastator Centurions and that's it. Skyhammer wasn't broken, and Invisibility was available to anyone (and you had it cast for Space Wolves units)
Seriously, Space Wolves players are frickin spoiled.
2. Different faction =/= different codex. The units I named literally come from other codices and don't have Storm Shields. Lootas don't have universal problems, they simply work better when rerolling to hit. That's simply dishonest of you.
And honestly, you need to quit listing Storm Shields as a reason for Terminators being fine because a lot of other units are using those same Storm Shields a LOT better (such as your precious Wulfen). 2 point Storm Shields didn't help Terminators, it simply made a lot of other units stupid (Deathwatch being a notorious example, assuming you have that many shield dudes laying around).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So Space Marines had Gladius (for ONE edition, mind you) and now you're convinced Space Wolves are never Space Marines +1?
You really need to do some critical thinking.

Anything prior 7th edition is now 6-7+ years ago. SM in 7th had plenty of broken tools that SW didn't have: grav spam, skyhammer formation, invisibility, etc. In the entire 8th edition SM have been vastly superior than SW. And I'm not even that sure that in 6th SW were superior to other SM chapters, but I admit I'm not an expert of that edition since I've basically skipped it entirely.

So yeah, this +1 thing really belongs to some ancient past.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also assuming Terminators have a 3++ needs to stop. Scarab Occult, Blightlords, Deathshroud, Paladins, Chaos Terminators, Tactical Terminators, the other two Mk Terminators...they don't have that.
There is clearly a universal problem you're ignoring because you're spoiled playing a faction that has almost never been bad.

Well SM players always mention lootas as if they were bad moons only. Coven stuff as prophets of flesh only. Ravagers as black heart only with doom buff, etc.

If a faction has 45 units that look identical then the problem is that there are too many of them, and some of them should disappear. The thread's title is how to make termies worthwhile, it isn't about tactics involving the current units but it's about some proposed rules: my answer is to make termies like SW ones, just with a few small differences between the factions but still very similar. Simple. Just one unit of termies per faction, not 99 of them. Melee only (or mostly).

1. Nice revisionism. They didn't have Grav spam, they had Devastator Centurions and that's it. Skyhammer wasn't broken, and Invisibility was available to anyone (and you had it cast for Space Wolves units)
Seriously, Space Wolves players are frickin spoiled.
2. Different faction =/= different codex. The units I named literally come from other codices and don't have Storm Shields. Lootas don't have universal problems, they simply work better when rerolling to hit. That's simply dishonest of you.
And honestly, you need to quit listing Storm Shields as a reason for Terminators being fine because a lot of other units are using those same Storm Shields a LOT better (such as your precious Wulfen). 2 point Storm Shields didn't help Terminators, it simply made a lot of other units stupid (Deathwatch being a notorious example, assuming you have that many shield dudes laying around).

I have to agree 2ppm stormshields are way better on anything else but terminators as you now paying out the points for a 2+5++, which only comes into play against Ap0 weapons.
Your also forgetting that Space furries +1 to hit makes a huge swing in effectiveness when you have low volume expensive CC weapon models.

If Terminators are paying for durability and damage output that's just not how they really play on the table.

3w models are much better than 2w models in 8th. Full stop. Especially given my primary strategy of spamming -1 save 2 damage weapons into terminators. Who is tanking better now? Lots of players are building to short circuit invulns because they are everywhere.

And 40k before 7th absolutely counts. And sw have always been sm+1.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Nice revisionism. They didn't have Grav spam, they had Devastator Centurions and that's it. Skyhammer wasn't broken, and Invisibility was available to anyone (and you had it cast for Space Wolves units)
Seriously, Space Wolves players are frickin spoiled.

So don't you agree that SM have been better than SW since 6+ years now? Ooooook. SM are far superior than SW at competitive levels since years, that's a fact. No pure SW list was able to be top tier since a lot of time, several pure SM lists won tournaments in 7th and 8th. Invisibility wasn't available in the SW codex, and most of the SW+SM soups were actually SM lists plus some SW superfriend, not SW plus a few SM allied. Saying that invisibility was available to anyone it's like saying that the castellan, the most overpowered unit at the moment, is available to anyone, just ally it in.

As Martel732 said, 40k before 7th absolutely counts, I totally agree with that, but it doesn't count to balance and fix the current version of 40k because it's another game now. If things have been different since years, it's disohnest to keep saying that SW are SM+1 because they're not. And not since yesterday or a month ago, but at least since two whole editions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Different faction =/= different codex. The units I named literally come from other codices and don't have Storm Shields. Lootas don't have universal problems, they simply work better when rerolling to hit. That's simply dishonest of you.
And honestly, you need to quit listing Storm Shields as a reason for Terminators being fine because a lot of other units are using those same Storm Shields a LOT better (such as your precious Wulfen). 2 point Storm Shields didn't help Terminators, it simply made a lot of other units stupid (Deathwatch being a notorious example, assuming you have that many shield dudes laying around).

Well you're simply wrong about lootas as you won't see any of them in a list that isn't bad moons. Maybe freebotas but still hard to see, as they have better options. Which means that the unit IS mediocre and overcosted. Lootas can only be good with a gimmick that involves a single clan buff, tons of CPs and supporting units like 90 points or more of gretchins. Sorry if you have no clue about how the armies you don't play work, just watch the lists posted in this site or elsewhere and you'll notice yourself.

I know that different factions have different codexes, in fact I'm suggesting a fix to termies, I'm not saying how should they play now. Let them be melee specialists in each codex, all with the chance of getting the 3++ and all with possible and helpful buffing auras from other characters or units. That would fix them. Of course different armies will be different options, like different weapons, GK or 1000 sons with psychic powers, etc... but the role of the unit should be that one. Again I'm not suggesting tactics and giving advice about how to play the current units of termies and their equivalents, we're in the proposed rules section.

It's true that 2pts storm shields also favor other units but you mentioned wulfen and they are useless, if not dead weight, if played on their own. They are amazing if they give some other units their aura and in a list with multiple assault oriented units. You and other SM players only want super dudes that are able to do the heavy work alone, which is silly. Enjoy your 20 points T5 4W 2++ 2+++ dudes. Not even wulfen, which are supposed to be melee superstars, are that good if unsupported. A unit of WG termies can definitely be paired with wulfen, I've recently played a list with both of them. I'd suggest watching some bat reps if you're not able to play an actual game, because it does look like you always do some theoryhammer without actually playing.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Nice revisionism. They didn't have Grav spam, they had Devastator Centurions and that's it. Skyhammer wasn't broken, and Invisibility was available to anyone (and you had it cast for Space Wolves units)
Seriously, Space Wolves players are frickin spoiled.

So don't you agree that SM have been better than SW since 6+ years now? Ooooook. SM are far superior than SW at competitive levels since years, that's a fact. No pure SW list was able to be top tier since a lot of time, several pure SM lists won tournaments in 7th and 8th. Invisibility wasn't available in the SW codex, and most of the SW+SM soups were actually SM lists plus some SW superfriend, not SW plus a few SM allied. Saying that invisibility was available to anyone it's like saying that the castellan, the most overpowered unit at the moment, is available to anyone, just ally it in.

As Martel732 said, 40k before 7th absolutely counts, I totally agree with that, but it doesn't count to balance and fix the current version of 40k because it's another game now. If things have been different since years, it's disohnest to keep saying that SW are SM+1 because they're not. And not since yesterday or a month ago, but at least since two whole editions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Different faction =/= different codex. The units I named literally come from other codices and don't have Storm Shields. Lootas don't have universal problems, they simply work better when rerolling to hit. That's simply dishonest of you.
And honestly, you need to quit listing Storm Shields as a reason for Terminators being fine because a lot of other units are using those same Storm Shields a LOT better (such as your precious Wulfen). 2 point Storm Shields didn't help Terminators, it simply made a lot of other units stupid (Deathwatch being a notorious example, assuming you have that many shield dudes laying around).

Well you're simply wrong about lootas as you won't see any of them in a list that isn't bad moons. Maybe freebotas but still hard to see, as they have better options. Which means that the unit IS mediocre and overcosted. Lootas can only be good with a gimmick that involves a single clan buff, tons of CPs and supporting units like 90 points or more of gretchins. Sorry if you have no clue about how the armies you don't play work, just watch the lists posted in this site or elsewhere and you'll notice yourself.

I know that different factions have different codexes, in fact I'm suggesting a fix to termies, I'm not saying how should they play now. Let them be melee specialists in each codex, all with the chance of getting the 3++ and all with possible and helpful buffing auras from other characters or units. That would fix them. Of course different armies will be different options, like different weapons, GK or 1000 sons with psychic powers, etc... but the role of the unit should be that one. Again I'm not suggesting tactics and giving advice about how to play the current units of termies and their equivalents, we're in the proposed rules section.

It's true that 2pts storm shields also favor other units but you mentioned wulfen and they are useless, if not dead weight, if played on their own. They are amazing if they give some other units their aura and in a list with multiple assault oriented units. You and other SM players only want super dudes that are able to do the heavy work alone, which is silly. Enjoy your 20 points T5 4W 2++ 2+++ dudes. Not even wulfen, which are supposed to be melee superstars, are that good if unsupported. A unit of WG termies can definitely be paired with wulfen, I've recently played a list with both of them. I'd suggest watching some bat reps if you're not able to play an actual game, because it does look like you always do some theoryhammer without actually playing.

1. And yeah, basically anyone can ally in a Castellan. They need to be fixed. So your point is what?
Also the moment Space Wolves got their 7.5th formation stuff they became better once again. They would show up more with those formations than an army with free vehicles. It's laughable. The moment they get their codex, they're Marines +1. The fact you deny this is amazing, because basically everyone else would agree outside you.
Pure Marine lists also aren't winning right now, even with the large amount of Marines being brought to the tournament. It proves flat out they need a rewrite. Even Slamguinus is showing up less because GW did the right thing and hit CP farming (whether it was too strong a hit was a different question).

2. You actually ARE telling people to L2P when you've been spoiled for rules using Space Wolves. Wulfen are functional without support, like units should be. Why would you even deny that?

 Blackie wrote:

Delivery mechanism is also the same one, a simple deepstrike. The meganobz one costs 2 CPs though, while the terminator one is free.

Except Orks have reroll one or both dice on failed charges. Stop ignoring the fact that Orks get into melee much more reliably than any Chapter in Codex: Space Marines.

 Blackie wrote:


I wasn't compare TH/SS to PKs, aka the units' loadouts, I was comparing the fact that 3++ termies can soak heavy hits like thunder hammers ones way better than meganobz. That's the difference between a 2+ save and a 2+ save with invuln, the latter can soak the dedicated anti tank very well, meganobz simply melt against anti tank weapons.

I know, I was commenting on the fact that the only Terminators with a 3++ save costs a bunch more than a Meganob unless you're Space Wolves and can just mix and match. Hence my point: stop pretending everyone is Marines +1.

SW are indeed struggling atm. TWC are countered by guardsmen at this point. And melee anything is just down in 8th. SW have nice devs, and some nice gear, but power shooting lists and lists with extensive screens just dont care.

Martel732 wrote:
SW are indeed struggling atm. TWC are countered by guardsmen at this point. And melee anything is just down in 8th. SW have nice devs, and some nice gear, but power shooting lists and lists with extensive screens just dont care.

TWC are only countered by Infantry because everyone was used to throwing a bunch of expensive weapons on them. They switched roles from what they used to be, essentially.

S3 frfsrf wrecks them. Straight up wrecks them.

Martel732 wrote:
S3 frfsrf wrecks them. Straight up wrecks them.

S3 frgsrf wrecks everyone

Martel732 wrote:
S3 frfsrf wrecks them. Straight up wrecks them.

Not sure I'd call an average of about 1 wound from a 10 man squad of guardsmen 'wrecking them'.

I would given the relative costs.

Ignoring the Officer giving the orders, isn't the cost 40pts? So it's a less-than-50% return. Still a really good return, but not what most people consider "straight up wreck", though.

I'm factoring in the cock-block factor too. Your twc gets to charge 4 point dum dums. I guess I should have said that. S3 is greatly improved vs t5 in 8th.

Would still like a 1+ save (so a terminator in cover will be a nightmare - and they are meant for such environments).

Astartes bolters in general should have a boost. As the training is better and the armour more integrated compared to say a sister of battle or imperial guard commander carrying a bolter...

Bolters (pistols, storm, regular) should be -1 to armour save.

Astartes bolters become assault 2 (storm bolters assault 4) and have an alt fire mode as elite assault troops. In this mode they become rapid fire 2 (storm bolters rapid fire 4), str 3, ap 0 weapons, to represent them using the mass reactive ammo and auto targeting senses to sow confusion in a charging hordes ranks with airbursts, delayed detonation, shrapnel fragments, etc.

So better protection and better firepower...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Astartes bolters in general should have a boost. As the training is better and the armour more integrated compared to say a sister of battle or imperial guard commander carrying a bolter...

You must be psychic!

I came here literally to talk about the Bolters Beta as well.
They still get -1 to hit on them, but an extra 2 shots or 4 at 12" helps make up a little, but that still doesn't affect the Assault Cannon or Cyclone. But hey, why are we taking Cyclones at that cost. Its worse than a pair of other missiles these days.

Honestly more vehicles and Termies all need some form of the old Relentless. I moved a heavy weapons firing platform weighing several dozen tonnes a foot or two, and suddenly the tracking augers go on the fritz. I know AdMech aren't the best, but we had tank gun stabilisers in the 1930s.

Kai Calimatinus wrote:
I came here literally to talk about the Bolters Beta as well.
They still get -1 to hit on them, but an extra 2 shots or 4 at 12" helps make up a little, but that still doesn't affect the Assault Cannon or Cyclone. But hey, why are we taking Cyclones at that cost. Its worse than a pair of other missiles these days.

Honestly more vehicles and Termies all need some form of the old Relentless. I moved a heavy weapons firing platform weighing several dozen tonnes a foot or two, and suddenly the tracking augers go on the fritz. I know AdMech aren't the best, but we had tank gun stabilisers in the 1930s.

That's not how it works.Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2, so you get a max of 4 shots per Terminator equipped with one.

It's just you now get the 4 shots past 12".

As above.

The beta rule is more defensive than offensive as far as its impact on termies go.

Practical use of the beta rule is that you can now deep strike your termies greater than 12"+M value of target away, denying your opponent a rapid fire range on their subsequent turn.

i.e. You deepstrike termies to shoot at guardsmen:
Pre-beta rule:
Deepstrike @ +9" to double tap, gamble on a 9" charge. If charge is failed, guardsmen now shoot in RF range against termies.

Beta rule in effect:
Deepstrike at +18" to double tap. Guardsmen cannot move into RF range w/ their 6" move and must fire only once per model.

While we're here, let's also drop 1 pt from SB - SB is not a 2 pt weapon.