We was made ta fight an’ win! - 9th Edition Ork Tactics

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**Kebabcito**

T5 Boyz with 6+ are EXACTLY the same as T4 5++ Boyz. They have exactly the same survival capabilities against F4, and they die even faster against F3 and poisons. Being new Boyz more expensive, cannot DaJump properly, cannot resurrect, cannot pass moral and only advance and charge one turn. For 90 points you've got a Scrapjet. This is not a nerf, just the removal of a miniature from the board.

The difference between a list with 1000p of buggies/aircraft + 1000p of squigs/Kommando/Stormboyz and the list of 2000p old Greentide is so big we could talk about the same powerlevel difference of AdMech and Tyranids.

**Afrodactyl**

Kebabcito wrote:
T5 Boyz with 6+ are EXACTLY the same as T4 5++ Boyz. They have exactly the same survival capabilities against F4, and they die even faster against F3 and poisons. Being new Boyz more expensive, cannot DaJump properly, cannot resurrect, cannot pass moral and only advance and charge one turn. For 90 points you've got a Scrapjet. This is not a nerf, just the removal of a miniature from the board.

The difference between a list with 1000p of buggies/aircraft + 1000p of squigs/Kommando/Stormboyz and the list of 2000p old Greentide is so big we could talk about the same powerlevel difference of AdMech and Tyranids.

As I said, they just need to be used differently. Huge blobs of boys aren't viable at the moment based on the current state of the new book, but Green Tide was always an anti-meta pick that took advantage of having too many models to handle and just swamping the opponent.

My list has 500ish points of trukk boys (with the assumption that it is RAI that they can actually ride in their trukks), and I have no intention of getting rid of them any time soon. I've been happy with their performance in the 7 or 8 games I've managed to get in since the snagga box came out.

**Beardedragon**

alright so i charged through 3 games 2 days ago, 2 games with 26x3 boys and one with more mechanized focus with buggies and tankbustas in a gargantuan squiggoth for the giggles. not interested in going over everything just a few things.

Boys:

Large groups of boys? yea i dont see the use honestly. my first battle was with goffs where the next was with snakebites to maximize damage mitigation. Both armies had a painboy and KFF. That boys have Toughness 5 is in and out of itself good, the -1AP good as well which means ends up not being a problem for the +1 to their cost.

But man do i feel like boys suck now, and theres a plethora of reasons for it. for starter, the loss of +1 attack when being above 20 models means there is no reason at all move around with big groups. There are also very very few stratagems that really benefit boys being in large groups. So while we got -1AP choppas we also lost +1 attack, but also +1 attack from ghaz which now only ever works when you call a normal waaagh. Furthermore boys are much more slow now as they cant advance and charge anymore. There are also quite a few ways some factions can or outright ignore -1 or 2AP meaning on those targets, the -1AP dont help us and if that came at the loss of +1 attack above 20, then it sucks. And then the change of "ere' we go" being rerolling both die rather than 1 die is just devastating.

Back before people knew they needed to keep a decent distance to boys, but now boys will just be kited around, or very few trash infantry or chaff will be thrown your way around turn 2 to block you from making proper charges, because they know it will only happen once during the entire game. Boys being slower and hitting less, means that theres suddenly no reason not to fill out your rooster with just Kommandos that receives many more buffs for just +1 point. Or maybe Stormboys.

And then the biggest issue: Morale. if you run blobs of 30, even your Toughness 5 wont stop the enemy from killing 7 models. you now basically auto lose morale unless you wanna waste 2CP to pass it. Its not difficult to lose 7 boys especially with blast rules, so your enemy does that to two of your boys blobs and you now spend 4CP +D3 MW if you want them to stay on the field or lose 1/6th of 23 boys per squad. I s it fair to get +1 point for +1 toughness and -1AP on choppas? Sure. Is it fair when you consider all the other direct and indirect nerfs they have received? feth no. If anything id throw them down to 8 ppm again. morale issues, fewer attacks, no advance and charge regularily on a 5" movement unit is not.. a fair price at all.

I can see boys running multiple 10 man squads maybe, but not big blobs. because why would you?

Killa Kanz:
Interesting unit that can finally use stratagems, just too bad there arent any fething stratagems to pick between barring maybe more dakka if you run big shootas or ramming speed. But the combo of tellyporting in 6 killa kanz and ramming speed is now viable, and it seems to be doing fine. What angers me a little bit is that most units went up 1 toughness, but killa kanz didnt. This also means they are fighting with Deffkoptas over almost the same spot who also has Toughness 5. While Deffkoptas SHOULD be more surgical strike'ish they are almost as hardy as Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz should have toughness 6 to make them better at brawling and staying in the fight. Their damage output is decent though, but once again, leadership is an issue. Because you ramming speed them in, 55ppm if you run rokkits you must kill for 330 points, because odds are your kanz are gone next turn. either to direct fire or morale. Seeing 55 points run off to morale thats not difficult to do for your enemy, isnt really that fair.

Mek Gunz:
Oh feth me how the mighty have fallen. I dont even care if Mek Gunz come in units, but what i do care about, is the fact they have gone UP in price WHILE having leadership 4. Kill a single Mek Gun (which isnt difficult) and have 50% chance the next will run off. This is even bigger of a problem than Killa Kanz, but the point still stands. Its not fair to have a 50% chance to see a 45ppm run off because a super easy vehicle was destroyed. If they want to stay in a unit, they should have a morale of at least 6.

Sure you could put them in lone squads, but that just takes up heavy slots, and you dont want that on a 45ppm only. As i see it, im fething done with Mek Gunz.

Dakka Jets:
Pretty good unit. But they definitely benefit more from Freebootas id say than Bad Moon. I ran them as bad moon, and even though you have 42 shots with a speed waagh (my more dakka kustom job never went off) hitting on 5s is still kind of sad, and the extra -1AP on wound rolls of 6s dont happen that often due to you hitting on 5s. I had a max of like 3 or 4 wound rolls of -3AP rather than the rest of -2AP. But if i had run freebootas, there would have been a ton of shots that could have hit to begin with. I dont know if freebootas would be better, but i definitely believe that they would. Just havent tried it yet.

Over all, pretty decent unit. Many shots misses, but with sheer weight of die and for 120 points i see uses for it.

Scrapjet:
Good with lower cost and more big shoota shots. Loss of hitting on 6s with wing missile unless you target vehicles is pretty good too. Super sad with the loss of kustom job for +4 attacks, and annoying they have to come in units, but over all i feel like it can work. We can also just run an outrider detatchment i guess.

Kommandos:
Good unit. Nice with forward deploy. Has weird synegy with stormboys if you want to make a massive turn 1 charge. But also competes a bit with stormboys for the same role that they can achieve differently. One forward deploys and deals better damage and can take more punishment in cover, where the other one just deepstrikes in. Over all, im very pleased with kommandos, and i see them being used as replacement for boys in the future, because why wouldnt you? 10 boys is only 10 points less than 10 kommandos yet you can forward deploy, +1 wound, 3 up save in ruins.

Mega Nobz
Good for 35 ppm, over priced for 45 point with killsaws. Why am i paying more for my terminators that has no invul, cant shoot properly and cant deepstrike, than anyone else does for their terminator variants?Mega Nobz with killsaws shouldnt be a day over 40 points, hell id go as far as to say that killsaws should have been 35 and the normal mega nob variant should be 32ppm. Paying the same or more as others do for their terminators has always bugged me when mega nobz can only do one thing good (killing heavies), where everyone elses can do multiple things good. With Ghaz they used to be worth it, now they are not.

Anyway, paying 35ppm is decent with powerklaws. I will not pay 45ppm for killsaws however.

Weirdboy and wurrboy:
You can cast 2 powers when above 20 models. You gain no extra casting for being near boys, even though that would be better. Id rather pay extra points to be able to cast 2 powers but they didnt like that idea apparently. I dont like the new weirdboy as it makes our casting very unreliable. Why take da jump when it goes off on a 7? Its not reliable. And even if it goes off, our charges can reroll both die rather than 1 die, meaing, even if i get off my da jump on a 7, theres still no guarantee they can get in to combat, as rolling a 9 now is an absolute bitch.

The Wurrboy is the same. no extra casting by models nearby, and his good damage powers are very short. Frazzle being 9" (which is fair due to how it works) and squiggly curse being 12". You wont be doing any casting turn 1 thats for sure, and theres not even a guarantee turn 2 unless you start in a vehicle.

Over all i have mixed feelings about some of the things in the codex. Somethings are very good others dont make any fething sense.

Stratagems at 2CP for the most part and dont really do a lot (which is fine if it werent for every other faction having access to crazy ass stratagems where we dont). it feels like everyone was over tuned stratagem wise and we have the necron treatment at that. Still, too many 2CP stratagems where we also have negative things happening. like the KFF stratagem. why am i paying 2CP when i ALSO lose it afterwards? When you pay 2CP, you dont want a negative point hitting you afterwards.

Kustom jobs are mainly meh, some are useful. cant be used on a unit of buggies is slowed. at least let one model then have the kustom job rather than forcing that model to be alone. uneccesary tax.
Boys in large blobs dont make sense as far as i can tell. Theres too much auto wound on 6s, +1 to wound and shinanigans and all the other nerfs direct or indirect boys received means that +1 to their cost isnt fair. Swarming the table with boys werent super useful before unless you went ghaz, now its even less feasable. Loss of Green tide is also devastating.

**koooaei**

pepi55 wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Snaggas are even worse cause they're more expensive and still don't do anything.
It's painful to compare our infantry to what de, admech and gk got.

But why are we comparing to DE, admech and GK?
DE and admech are simply too cheap from what I understand so that battle is already lost until some kind of price change.
GK are comparable to custodes from what I know (dont have their codex to double check) and it sounds like youre comparing 9ppm units to units with ridiculous costs.

Im interested to hear how they compare on average against other armies.
I haven't heard a comparison against spehs mahreens and necrons yet. How do boys compare to those?
I know about MEQ wounds and stuff but I think 10 boys can handle a single squad of SM troops right?
Against necrons I myself only played 8th codex so im also curious how the new boyz can handle necrons.

I'm talking from a competitive pov. If you're not comparing boyz to what's brought to the table in competitive games, what's the point of comparing them at all - just pick a squad to your liking and you'll be fine in non-competitive games.

Boyz don't have enough choppingness and durability to oppose marine lists with dreads but vs necrons can be semi-ok at chopping scarabs that will likely try to tie you up t1 and occupy the board.

**Jidmah**

Scactha wrote:
Goonhammer seems to disagree on Boyz

Ork Review

While goonhammer tends to write really good articles most of the time, their orks review is merely an average "blogger assumes orks work like marines" garbage post you can get pretty much everywhere.

**koooaei**

Beardedragon wrote:
alright so i charged through 3 games 2 days ago, 2 games with 26x3 boys and one with more mechanized focus with buggies and tankbustas in a gargantuan squiggoth for the giggles. not interested in going over everything just a few things.

Boys:

Large groups of boys? yea i dont see the use honestly. my first battle was with goffs where the next was with snakebites to maximize damage mitigation. Both armies had a painboy and KFF. That boys have Toughness 5 is in and out of itself good, the -1AP good as well which means ends up not being a problem for the +1 to their cost.

But man do i feel like boys suck now, and theres a plethora of reasons for it. for starter, the loss of +1 attack when being above 20 models means there is no reason at all move around with big groups. There are also very very few stratagems that really benefit boys being in large groups. So while we got -1AP choppas we also lost +1 attack, but also +1 attack from ghaz which now only ever works when you call a normal waaagh. Furthermore boys are much more slow now as they cant advance and charge anymore. There are also quite a few ways some factions can or outright ignore -1 or 2AP meaning on those targets, the -1AP dont help us and if that came at the loss of +1 attack above 20, then it sucks. And then the change of "ere' we go" being rerolling both die rather than 1 die is just devastating.

Back before people knew they needed to keep a decent distance to boys, but now boys will just be kited around, or very few trash infantry or chaff will be thrown your way around turn 2 to block you from making proper charges, because they know it will only happen once during the entire game. Boys being slower and hitting less, means that theres suddenly no reason not to fill out your rooster with just Kommandos that receives many more buffs for just +1 point. Or maybe Stormboys.

And then the biggest issue: Morale. if you run blobs of 30, even your Toughness 5 wont stop the enemy from killing 7 models. you now basically auto lose morale unless you wanna waste 2CP to pass it. Its not difficult to lose 7 boys especially with blast rules, so your enemy does that to two of your boys blobs and you now spend 4CP +D3 MW if you want them to stay on the field or lose 1/6th of 23 boys per squad. I s it fair to get +1 point for +1 toughness and -1AP on choppas? Sure. Is it fair when you consider all the other direct and indirect nerfs they have received? feth no. If anything id throw them down to 8 ppm again. morale issues, fewer attacks, no advance and charge regularily on a 5" movement unit is not.. a fair price at all.

I can see boys running multiple 10 man squads maybe, but not big blobs. because why would you?

Killa Kanz:
Interesting unit that can finally use stratagems, just too bad there arent any fething stratagems to pick between barring maybe more dakka if you run big shootas or ramming speed. But the combo of tellyporting in 6 killa kanz and ramming speed is now viable, and it seems to be doing fine. What angers me a little bit is that most units went up 1 toughness, but killa kanz didnt. This also means they are fighting with Deffkoptas over almost the same spot who also has Toughness 5. While Deffkoptas SHOULD be more surgical strike'ish they are almost as hardy as Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz should have toughness 6 to make them better at brawling and staying in the fight. Their damage output is decent though, but once again, leadership is an issue. Because you ramming speed them in, 55ppm if you run rokkits you must kill for 330 points, because odds are your kanz are gone next turn. either to direct fire or morale. Seeing 55 points run off to morale thats not difficult to do for your enemy, isnt really that fair.

Mek Gunz:
Oh feth me how the mighty have fallen. I dont even care if Mek Gunz come in units, but what i do care about, is the fact they have gone UP in price WHILE having leadership 4. Kill a single Mek Gun (which isnt difficult) and have 50% chance the next will run off. This is even bigger of a problem than Killa Kanz, but the point still stands. Its not fair to have a 50% chance to see a 45ppm run off because a super easy vehicle was destroyed. If they want to stay in a unit, they should have a morale of at least 6.

Sure you could put them in lone squads, but that just takes up heavy slots, and you dont want that on a 45ppm only. As i see it, im fething done with Mek Gunz.

Dakka Jets:
Pretty good unit. But they definitely benefit more from Freebootas id say than Bad Moon. I ran them as bad moon, and even though you have 42 shots with a speed waagh (my more dakka kustom job never went off) hitting on 5s is still kind of sad, and the extra -1AP on wound rolls of 6s dont happen that often due to you hitting on 5s. I had a max of like 3 or 4 wound rolls of -3AP rather than the rest of -2AP. But if i had run freebootas, there would have been a ton of shots that could have hit to begin with. I dont know if freebootas would be better, but i definitely believe that they would. Just havent tried it yet.

Over all, pretty decent unit. Many shots misses, but with sheer weight of die and for 120 points i see uses for it.

Scrapjet:
Good with lower cost and more big shoota shots. Loss of hitting on 6s with wing missile unless you target vehicles is pretty good too. Super sad with the loss of kustom job for +4 attacks, and annoying they have to come in units, but over all i feel like it can work. We can also just run an outrider detatchment i guess.

Kommandos:
Good unit. Nice with forward deploy. Has weird synegy with stormboys if you want to make a massive turn 1 charge. But also competes a bit with stormboys for the same role that they can achieve differently. One forward deploys and deals better damage and can take more punishment in cover, where the other one just deepstrikes in. Over all, im very pleased with kommandos, and i see them being used as replacement for boys in the future, because why wouldnt you? 10 boys is only 10 points less than 10 kommandos yet you can forward deploy, +1 wound, 3 up save in ruins.

Mega Nobz
Good for 35 ppm, over priced for 45 point with killsaws. Why am i paying more for my terminators that has no invul, cant shoot properly and cant deepstrike, than anyone else does for their terminator variants?Mega Nobz with killsaws shouldnt be a day over 40 points, hell id go as far as to say that killsaws should have been 35 and the normal mega nob variant should be 32ppm. Paying the same or more as others do for their terminators has always bugged me when mega nobz can only do one thing good (killing heavies), where everyone elses can do multiple things good. With Ghaz they used to be worth it, now they are not.

Anyway, paying 35ppm is decent with powerklaws. I will not pay 45ppm for killsaws however.

Weirdboy and wurrboy:
You can cast 2 powers when above 20 models. You gain no extra casting for being near boys, even though that would be better. Id rather pay extra points to be able to cast 2 powers but they didnt like that idea apparently. I dont like the new weirdboy as it makes our casting very unreliable. Why take da jump when it goes off on a 7? Its not reliable. And even if it goes off, our charges can reroll both die rather than 1 die, meaing, even if i get off my da jump on a 7, theres still no guarantee they can get in to combat, as rolling a 9 now is an absolute bitch.

The Wurrboy is the same. no extra casting by models nearby, and his good damage powers are very short. Frazzle being 9" (which is fair due to how it works) and squiggly curse being 12". You wont be doing any casting turn 1 thats for sure, and theres not even a guarantee turn 2 unless you start in a vehicle.

Over all i have mixed feelings about some of the things in the codex. Somethings are very good others dont make any fething sense.

Stratagems at 2CP for the most part and dont really do a lot (which is fine if it werent for every other faction having access to crazy ass stratagems where we dont). it feels like everyone was over tuned stratagem wise and we have the necron treatment at that. Still, too many 2CP stratagems where we also have negative things happening. like the KFF stratagem. why am i paying 2CP when i ALSO lose it afterwards? When you pay 2CP, you dont want a negative point hitting you afterwards.

Kustom jobs are mainly meh, some are useful. cant be used on a unit of buggies is slowed. at least let one unit then have the kustom job rather than forcing that model to be alone. uneccesary tax.
Boys in large blobs dont make sense as far as i can tell. Theres too much auto wound on 6s, +1 to wound and shinanigans and all the other nerfs direct or indirect boys received means that +1 to their cost isnt fair. Swarming the table with boys werent super useful before unless you went ghaz, now its even less feasable. Loss of Green tide is also devastating.

I agree for the most part. But meganobz aren't that bad as a min trukkboy squad with rokkits. 190 pt, yes but they can be useful on a flank. At least I hope so...

Skrapjets are more than fine - they're our best unit ATM.

**Jidmah**

Beardedragon wrote:
alright so i charged through 3 games 2 days ago, 2 games with 26x3 boys and one with more mechanized focus with buggies and tankbustas in a gargantuan squiggoth for the giggles. not interested in going over everything just a few things.

Spoiler:

Boys:

Large groups of boys? yea i dont see the use honestly. my first battle was with goffs where the next was with snakebites to maximize damage mitigation. Both armies had a painboy and KFF. That boys have Toughness 5 is in and out of itself good, the -1AP good as well which means ends up not being a problem for the +1 to their cost.

But man do i feel like boys suck now, and theres a plethora of reasons for it. for starter, the loss of +1 attack when being above 20 models means there is no reason at all move around with big groups. There are also very very few stratagems that really benefit boys being in large groups. So while we got -1AP choppas we also lost +1 attack, but also +1 attack from ghaz which now only ever works when you call a normal waaagh. Furthermore boys are much more slow now as they cant advance and charge anymore. There are also quite a few ways some factions can or outright ignore -1 or 2AP meaning on those targets, the -1AP dont help us and if that came at the loss of +1 attack above 20, then it sucks. And then the change of "ere' we go" being rerolling both die rather than 1 die is just devastating.

Back before people knew they needed to keep a decent distance to boys, but now boys will just be kited around, or very few trash infantry or chaff will be thrown your way around turn 2 to block you from making proper charges, because they know it will only happen once during the entire game. Boys being slower and hitting less, means that theres suddenly no reason not to fill out your rooster with just Kommandos that receives many more buffs for just +1 point. Or maybe Stormboys.

And then the biggest issue: Morale. if you run blobs of 30, even your Toughness 5 wont stop the enemy from killing 7 models. you now basically auto lose morale unless you wanna waste 2CP to pass it. Its not difficult to lose 7 boys especially with blast rules, so your enemy does that to two of your boys blobs and you now spend 4CP +D3 MW if you want them to stay on the field or lose 1/6th of 23 boys per squad. I s it fair to get +1 point for +1 toughness and -1AP on choppas? Sure. Is it fair when you consider all the other direct and indirect nerfs they have received? feth no. If anything id throw them down to 8 ppm again. morale issues, fewer attacks, no advance and charge regularily on a 5" movement unit is not.. a fair price at all.

I can see boys running multiple 10 man squads maybe, but not big blobs. because why would you?

Killa Kanz:
Interesting unit that can finally use stratagems, just too bad there arent any fething stratagems to pick between barring maybe more dakka if you run big shootas or ramming speed. But the combo of tellyporting in 6 killa kanz and ramming speed is now viable, and it seems to be doing fine. What angers me a little bit is that most units went up 1 toughness, but killa kanz didnt. This also means they are fighting with Deffkoptas over almost the same spot who also has Toughness 5. While Deffkoptas SHOULD be more surgical strike'ish they are almost as hardy as Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz should have toughness 6 to make them better at brawling and staying in the fight. Their damage output is decent though, but once again, leadership is an issue. Because you ramming speed them in, 55ppm if you run rokkits you must kill for 330 points, because odds are your kanz are gone next turn. either to direct fire or morale. Seeing 55 points run off to morale thats not difficult to do for your enemy, isnt really that fair.

Mek Gunz:
Oh feth me how the mighty have fallen. I dont even care if Mek Gunz come in units, but what i do care about, is the fact they have gone UP in price WHILE having leadership 4. Kill a single Mek Gun (which isnt difficult) and have 50% chance the next will run off. This is even bigger of a problem than Killa Kanz, but the point still stands. Its not fair to have a 50% chance to see a 45ppm run off because a super easy vehicle was destroyed. If they want to stay in a unit, they should have a morale of at least 6.

Sure you could put them in lone squads, but that just takes up heavy slots, and you dont want that on a 45ppm only. As i see it, im fething done with Mek Gunz.

Dakka Jets:
Pretty good unit. But they definitely benefit more from Freebootas id say than Bad Moon. I ran them as bad moon, and even though you have 42 shots with a speed waagh (my more dakka kustom job never went off) hitting on 5s is still kind of sad, and the extra -1AP on wound rolls of 6s dont happen that often due to you hitting on 5s. I had a max of like 3 or 4 wound rolls of -3AP rather than the rest of -2AP. But if i had run freebootas, there would have been a ton of shots that could have hit to begin with. I dont know if freebootas would be better, but i definitely believe that they would. Just havent tried it yet.

Over all, pretty decent unit. Many shots misses, but with sheer weight of die and for 120 points i see uses for it.

Scrapjet:
Good with lower cost and more big shoota shots. Loss of hitting on 6s with wing missile unless you target vehicles is pretty good too. Super sad with the loss of kustom job for +4 attacks, and annoying they have to come in units, but over all i feel like it can work. We can also just run an outrider detatchment i guess.

Kommandos:
Good unit. Nice with forward deploy. Has weird synegy with stormboys if you want to make a massive turn 1 charge. But also competes a bit with stormboys for the same role that they can achieve differently. One forward deploys and deals better damage and can take more punishment in cover, where the other one just deepstrikes in. Over all, im very pleased with kommandos, and i see them being used as replacement for boys in the future, because why wouldnt you? 10 boys is only 10 points less than 10 kommandos yet you can forward deploy, +1 wound, 3 up save in ruins.

Mega Nobz
Good for 35 ppm, over priced for 45 point with killsaws. Why am i paying more for my terminators that has no invul, cant shoot properly and cant deepstrike, than anyone else does for their terminator variants?Mega Nobz with killsaws shouldnt be a day over 40 points, hell id go as far as to say that killsaws should have been 35 and the normal mega nob variant should be 32ppm. Paying the same or more as others do for their terminators has always bugged me when mega nobz can only do one thing good (killing heavies), where everyone elses can do multiple things good. With Ghaz they used to be worth it, now they are not.

Anyway, paying 35ppm is decent with powerklaws. I will not pay 45ppm for killsaws however.

Weirdboy and wurrboy:
You can cast 2 powers when above 20 models. You gain no extra casting for being near boys, even though that would be better. Id rather pay extra points to be able to cast 2 powers but they didnt like that idea apparently. I dont like the new weirdboy as it makes our casting very unreliable. Why take da jump when it goes off on a 7? Its not reliable. And even if it goes off, our charges can reroll both die rather than 1 die, meaing, even if i get off my da jump on a 7, theres still no guarantee they can get in to combat, as rolling a 9 now is an absolute bitch.

The Wurrboy is the same. no extra casting by models nearby, and his good damage powers are very short. Frazzle being 9" (which is fair due to how it works) and squiggly curse being 12". You wont be doing any casting turn 1 thats for sure, and theres not even a guarantee turn 2 unless you start in a vehicle.

Over all i have mixed feelings about some of the things in the codex. Somethings are very good others dont make any fething sense.

Stratagems at 2CP for the most part and dont really do a lot (which is fine if it werent for every other faction having access to crazy ass stratagems where we dont). it feels like everyone was over tuned stratagem wise and we have the necron treatment at that. Still, too many 2CP stratagems where we also have negative things happening. like the KFF stratagem. why am i paying 2CP when i ALSO lose it afterwards? When you pay 2CP, you dont want a negative point hitting you afterwards.

Kustom jobs are mainly meh, some are useful. cant be used on a unit of buggies is slowed. at least let one unit then have the kustom job rather than forcing that model to be alone. uneccesary tax.
Boys in large blobs dont make sense as far as i can tell. Theres too much auto wound on 6s, +1 to wound and shinanigans and all the other nerfs direct or indirect boys received means that +1 to their cost isnt fair. Swarming the table with boys werent super useful before unless you went ghaz, now its even less feasable. Loss of Green tide is also devastating.

Interesting write-up, thanks for that

**Vineheart01**

i didnt even notice that dual-saw MANz were 45pts now.
Wtf? So we pay +5pts to change a klaw for a saw, when theyre virtually identical unless we pay another 5pts for +1 attack? That is grade A gak...
There seems to be several accounts of points like that in the ork codex right now but that one has to be the worst offender. In what flippin' world is that a good trade?

edit: tbh, now im thinking kombi rokkit MANz with a klaw.
40pts to give them a rokkit profile. "But they cant move and fire it at full BS!" yes...but that also means you can dual-fire the kombi since not like the kustomshoota profile was gonna do any damage at BS5 either. One of the bizzare interactions with the whole modifiers capped at +/-1 is movement penalty counts towards that, so any heavy weapon thats gonna get a -1 might as well move since whats a -2? lol
A random squad of 3-4 meganobz with kombirokkits is only 15-20pts more, i'd take the 4D3 BS6 rokkit changes over most of our craptastic kustom jobs anyway.

**Oguhmek**

+5 points for a pair of saws could maybe make sense

Agreed, there are so many weird things like this, like paying 2CP to destroy a piece of kit I already paid points for - that KFF strategem should just be an ability of the equipment, it's not that powerful.

**Jidmah**

Orks placing first and second with new codex at Alberta Classic GT. Calgary, Alberta. 47 players. 5 Rounds

Winning list:

Spoiler:

Edit: Cleaned up list so it's not just a mess of BS tags and only left the interesting wargear.

**Kebabcito**

Was about to post the same.

Just same as my list but I prefer Big Mek with KFF for 6++ on vehicles instead of tellyporta punchy hit. And I would play some snagga Goffs por fighting middle. And I would change 1 dakkajet for 1 Blastajet.

I feel insane with this list, like never before.

**pepi55**

Afrodactyl wrote:
Boyz still have a place in the army list, they just need to be used slightly differently is all. Snaggas are good, especially in a vehicle/monster meta. Shoota boys are garbage though, especially in comparison to the army's other choices.

Please elaborate on how you think they should be used now?
Good thing I haven't modelled my shoota boiz kits yet. They will probably end up as choppa boiz or as bodies for lootas+burnas

**MrStressy**

So I had my first game with the new book yesterday, it was a doubles game with 2k of orks and necrons vs 4k of knights including some of the nasty FW ones, it was a random draw for the teams so myself and the necron player thought we were in all sorts of trouble. I wanted to try out some of the new and updated stuff and bearing in mind it was just a friendly game (but still matched play and we wanted to compete) I had a deathskulls list with some buggies, a wagon with nobz and the warboss, a squad of the squighogz with a nob on smasha, some flashgitz, a big mek with tellyporta, a pair of KMK mek guns, a wazbom blastajet with the tellyport blasta's upgrade and a Stompa, just because

Bearing in mind we hadn't built to play pure knights a lot of the units in my list weren't going to acheive a whole lot but actually we surprised ourselves and won the game handily. There were a few take aways from the game that I thought might be interesting:

The wazbom with tellyporta's was the absolute MVP, I put it in reserves (so it would last more than a turn) and when it came on it absolutely ruined what it shot at, the d3+3 damage hitting on 4's is amazing and definitely a top anti tank pick in my book

Mek Guns in units of 1 still chuck out a good amount of fire and provided they have decent LOS are a threat and are also cheap enough to sit on an objective and be annoying

The squighogz got blown off the board turn one unfortunately but the nob on smasha was great, he charged in and headbutted a badly damaged knight to death with MW's in turn two then used the strat to charge again and took a few more wounds off another one, against anything other than knights I think he is going to make a great counter charge unit

My scrapjet also got smashed early in the game but the upgraded rokkit cannon and threat of the drill in melee meant it got picked out early but still has great potential

And lastly the stompa actually did some stuff, much to my general amazement, I picked it just for the hell of it to be honest but I got a round of shooting out of it and then used the 3d6 charge strat to get into combat with a FW knight and did 45 wounds to it in combat with the frankly ludicrous flat damage 9 str 20 melee profile

It did get shot off the board in the next turn by a knight porphyrion but it was great fun to use and although nowhere near a competetive pick it felt great for it to even be on the table

Overall I think the new book definitely has play and while it feels like a lot of our flexibility has been taken away, in terms of strats and kustom jobs for example, I think there will be some builds that we will be able to put together that will catch people out and the power of a lot of our units is now inbuilt rather than being reliant on strats or synergies which has its up and down sides admittedly.

Just my two cents, I'm enjoying the discussion here as always

**Vineheart01**

@pepi55

probably referring to the lack of AP on them comparatively.

It used to basically be choppa boyz = 3 melee attacks, shoota boyz = 2 ranged 2 melee. Considering WS is 3 that extra melee was likely to hit as often as 1 of those shooting shots.
And they used to be identical otherwise. Now theyre not, choppas are ap1. And their dakka profile wont realistically kick in for them since its so dang short unless you either divebomb a trukk up the field or use the strat (which is 100% reserved for warbikers imo)

I dont think shoota boyz are totally worthless but they definitely lost most of their appeal vs choppa boyz purely because choppa boy swings, while only in melee, are more likely to do something.

**pepi55**

koooaei wrote:
I'm talking from a competitive pov. If you're not comparing boyz to what's brought to the table in competitive games, what's the point of comparing them at all - just pick a squad to your liking and you'll be fine in non-competitive games.

Boyz don't have enough choppingness and durability to oppose marine lists with dreads but vs necrons can be semi-ok at chopping scarabs that will likely try to tie you up t1 and occupy the board.

I get its from a competitive pov. I meant that the GK for example pay more to get more. I think its more fair to compare boiz to troops in a similar price range and compare their intended goal with said troops. I think tactical marines are like 12ppm which come close to the price of a boy/snagga.
so in that case you would be comparing the tasks of a min-sized boy unit to about 7.5 tactical marines and how these tasks compare to eachother as well as how effective the troops are at completing those tasks.

obviously comparing boys to DE/admech/GK troops (which you will probably meet most often in competitive environments) is a lost cause as has been stated often enough already.
Im just interested in the off chance your local meta isnt competitive armies only and if boys are still bad in such an environment.
You can still be competitive with non-competitive armies. you will probably just win less.

I'm talking from a competitive pov. If you're not comparing boyz to what's brought to the table in competitive games, what's the point of comparing them at all - just pick a squad to your liking and you'll be fine in non-competitive games.

Boyz don't have enough choppingness and durability to oppose marine lists with dreads but vs necrons can be semi-ok at chopping scarabs that will likely try to tie you up t1 and occupy the board.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
@pepi55

probably referring to the lack of AP on them comparatively.

It used to basically be choppa boyz = 3 melee attacks, shoota boyz = 2 ranged 2 melee. Considering WS is 3 that extra melee was likely to hit as often as 1 of those shooting shots.
And they used to be identical otherwise. Now theyre not, choppas are ap1. And their dakka profile wont realistically kick in for them since its so dang short unless you either divebomb a trukk up the field or use the strat (which is 100% reserved for warbikers imo)

I dont think shoota boyz are totally worthless but they definitely lost most of their appeal vs choppa boyz purely because choppa boy swings, while only in melee, are more likely to do something.

Even I can see shoota boyz are simply bad compared to other boy options. I was expecting some kind of change in strategy with boyz in general.

**addnid**

The one thing going for boyz is the 2d3 mortal wounds from tankbusta bomb strat. Sadly kommandos also have the keyword. But you can really hit something tough and damage it badly with that strat. I used it twice in my three games with the new codex, to rather good effect !
I still think they are a tax unit and we may be better off with 50 points grot mobs as taxes

**the_scotsman**

koooaei wrote:
pepi55 wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Snaggas are even worse cause they're more expensive and still don't do anything.
It's painful to compare our infantry to what de, admech and gk got.

But why are we comparing to DE, admech and GK?
DE and admech are simply too cheap from what I understand so that battle is already lost until some kind of price change.
GK are comparable to custodes from what I know (dont have their codex to double check) and it sounds like youre comparing 9ppm units to units with ridiculous costs.

Im interested to hear how they compare on average against other armies.
I haven't heard a comparison against spehs mahreens and necrons yet. How do boys compare to those?
I know about MEQ wounds and stuff but I think 10 boys can handle a single squad of SM troops right?
Against necrons I myself only played 8th codex so im also curious how the new boyz can handle necrons.

I'm talking from a competitive pov. If you're not comparing boyz to what's brought to the table in competitive games, what's the point of comparing them at all - just pick a squad to your liking and you'll be fine in non-competitive games.

Boyz don't have enough choppingness and durability to oppose marine lists with dreads but vs necrons can be semi-ok at chopping scarabs that will likely try to tie you up t1 and occupy the board.

Actually taking a second here....let's look at Trukk Boyz in a t1 tempo list or normal boyz in a trukk in a t2 tempo list vs the current competitive meta drukhari wyches in a raider.

Drukhari wyches in a raider: 195pts atm for 10 unadorned wyches in a dark lance raider with no upgrades, assuming Cult of Strife and for ease of comparison Attacks drugs, though I know a lot of people roll 2 for drugs.

Each wych is A5, S3 Ap-1 D1, T3 6++ or 4++ in melee. they get Blade Artists on 6 to wound for AP-2, and on turn 2 when they'll be jumping out and attacking they move 12"+advance and charge (assuming Strife) after the transport moves 14" turn 1.

Wyches get the following wounds: 15 GEQ, 6.8 MEQ, 3.84 VEQ (6.06 VEQ if you want to incorporate the turn 1 shot from the Raider's Dark Lance into the calculus)

12 boyz in a trukk with a big choppa nob for points parity are 183pts.

Assuming you're going to be using the waaagh on the turn they do their business, and assuming Goffs for the turn 2 tempo and Trukk Boyz for the turn 1 tempo:

Trukk Boyz: 18 GEQ, 9.1 MEQ, 6.2 VEQ (19 GEQ if you want to incorporate the trukk's big shoota)
Goff Boyz: 21.2 GEQ, 14 MEQ, 7.8 VEQ

the trukk is 33% less durable vs lascannons, meltas, and other traditional anti-tank guns, but twice as durable vs autocannons heavy bolters and the like. In terms of durability you'd think the wyches with the invuln have them beat, but assume that a squad of Intercessors theyve charged into decides to interrupt and fight back into the 4++ invuln - 6.8 wyches die vs 5.5 boyz, and the boyz can shove the last wound on the nob as a little bonus. In shooting? it's not even a contest, basically every gun kills many more points of wyches as opposed to boyz. A lowly GEQ squad with a flamer that decides to overwatch wyches makes 66% of their value back

sure, the wyches have No Escape to potentially stop a fall back, but the numbers for Goff Boyz are pretty dang close to 'anything you'd reasonably expect to find on the board in 9th ed will be real close to wiped" territory.

And the movement range is a little bit more difficult - for the turn 2 tempo Strife wyches you get an average threat range of 33" vs 31" for the Goff boyz and 28" for the trukk boyz (assuming the Goff trukk advances t1) but the wyches don't have the option for a turn 1 tempo use case.

Part of the reason naked wyches are so nasty competitively is how difficult it is to remove a good amount of their points value in the (often) one turn you get to shoot at them vs the value of yours they then take away when they crash turn 2.Part of me kind of wonders how goff boyz in trukks would stack up to that - trukks are easier to take down than raiders by the average competitive list currently stacking melta and D3+3 but the goffs stack basically every bit of their damage potential into what's inside the trukk, while wyches in raiders keep 1/3 of their anti-vehicle punch in the transport itself.

Goff nobz/manz may be a better pick for the turn 2 tempo into the current meta though since goff nobz can chop T6 vehicle targets apart just with weight of S6 Ap-1 attacks and goff manz can kill god.

...Part of me kind of wonders how a goff equivalent to the current DE meta raider rush list with a Big Krumpas KFF morkanaut in a SH aux detachment would work.

**CthuluIsSpy**

So I have about 60 slugga boys and 30 shoota boyz.
Is it better to go all mechanized and put everyone in trucks, or do I just mechanize the slugga boyz and have the shoota boyz in a big mob? Or do I just not take shoota boyz at all?
I'm trying to work out what's the most efficient way to run my collection.

**Grimskul**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I have about 60 slugga boys and 30 shoota boyz.
Is it better to go all mechanized and put everyone in trucks, or do I just mechanize the slugga boyz and have the shoota boyz in a big mob? Or do I just not take shoota boyz at all?
I'm trying to work out what's the most efficient way to run my collection.

Sadly, I have a bunch of shoota boyz as well and it looks like you should just leave them on the shelf this edition (after I painted like 60 of them too! *shakes fist angrily*)

Slugga boyz are best off as trukk boyz, and since you're limited to one per detachment, you're basically capped at a ceiling of 30sh slugga boyz as trukk boyz. You could also have non-trukk boyz as well, but I would assume that they should be goffs in most instances barring a specific army type you're aiming for.

**the_scotsman**

Looking at current competitive drukhari lists, which obviously work based on the numbers they're pulling in, they take just about enough ranged anti-tank firepower to deal ~15 unsaved wounds to a standard vehicle profile (enough to kill 1 vehicle with a 5++ or other shenanigans that are typical in competitive play) and then they take about 5 raiders worth of melee units designed to crash and deal damage (Split between Strife wyches with +1S or +1A drugs and min Incubi squads to kill MEQs) and then usually theyve got some trueborns to do extra anti-tank and a few scoring wildcard units like min scourges, min mandrakes, min hellions/reavers, etc that live at the intersection of fast, cheap, and usually INFANTRY for actions. The killing portion of the list is a turn 2 tempo crash and the way it wins games consistently is how much you've got running around besides the crash that can keep scoring while your opponent is occupied trying to not get murdered by a bunch of roided-up knife ladies and edgy boi aspect warriors.

The question I'd have is: how close can we get to aping that style successfully with goffs, boyz, nobz (or some other anti-MEQ unit), komandos and stormboyz to make a large-ish number of mounted up boyz a working model for a list? can a warboss get anywhere near the kind of pain a relic'd up succubus can lay down, or would it be better to spring for squigbosses?

**Beardedragon**

While it makes sense that Mega Nobz dont have invulnerable saves, BS3, deepstrike and a large amount of customizable options, it still begs the question, why we're paying as much for them as anyone else. The lack of all these things made me question mega nobz pricing in the last codex, and they make me question the pricing in this one too. They received better buffs before from ghaz, and they have uses now, just like they had uses then. By no means are they unplayable or terrible, but they are also not as efficient as what others get for the same price. Of course they have been outright buffed from before, being tougher, faster and cheaper. But to be fair, with the lack of deepstrike, ballistic skill 3, invul and customization, i dont feel like even 35ppm is enough, it should be lower. between 30-32ppm. The double killsaw upgrade should be between 35-37ppm. Unlike others terminators, ours wont stay on the board after they have done their thing. we can wreck vehicles but only in CC, our shots wont hit anything. wrecking tanks and high toughness targets is literally our only thing. Staying power isnt one of them, as no ork unit really has staying power, barring being cheaper, thus we gain durbility through body counts. they are more duable than nobz and boys obviously, but if the enemy wants them gone, they will be gone. And it wouldnt be difficult, with the loss of invul saves.

The +1 damage is also 2 CP now, which is sad. they were a good source of str 10, dmg 3 attacks with killsaws for 1CP, now.. well i guess you can field more of them by being cheaper.

Normal terminators are versatile, they deepstrike in, shoot something, charge something else. Ours drive up vehicles that can be destroyed, wont be really shooting anything and can only target heavy vehicles out of fear of not wasting their potential when hitting on 3s and 4s. Although the new price tag of 35 points means we "might" be able to make rokkits work on MANZ, and if we dont, we dont risk losing as much as its "only" 35ppm. But then again, 35 from 40 ppm isnt really a big difference. i do not know about the rikkits yet i havent tried. But is the 5ppm difference between MANZ and lets say, blightlord terminators, really worth an invul, deepstrike, BS3 and customization options? Personally all those differences, even if we have T5, dont make us only 5 points cheaper, it should be more.

I hear people wanna put MANZ in trukk boys companies and while thats decent, it wont be a good turn 1 charge. Who the hell puts their T8 tanks and vehicles on the frontline, well knowingly that a trukk of MANZ could reach them turn 1? They will most likely be hidden behind chaff infantry.

Trukk boy MANZ are better suited driving up waiting for turn 2 before moving on. but that also puts them at risk at getting the trukk destroyed before that can happen. Trukk boys MANZ seem risky and dont seem like it would reward you with anything other than MANZ in the enemys frontlines that would get killed the same or next round. If i wanted to go this route, maybe one would be better off putting them in a battlewagon.

Also NOBZ, normal nobz, should not be 17ppm. kitting them with double killsaws cost like 38 point, at that point you might as well buy mega nobz. Nobz are too expensive as well. However, they have better uses as Trukkboys. With either Big Choppas or Double choppas. because they WILL die after they have done their thing. driving them up could kill a decent amount of chaff from the enemy, and stopping them from reaching the neutral victory point on one side.

Still, 35ppm is still a good price, better than before. except for the 1 extra CP to 1+dmg our new MANZ with powerklaw at least are better. faster, tougher, cheaper. But the killsaw upgrade for +10 points is absolutely mental. I wont be using it. I was just hoping that maybe GW would make mega nobz even cheaper, to put them more in line with what we DONT have that other termies do. what we lack cant be made up with just 5ppm from lets say, blightlord terminators.

**Afrodactyl**

pepi55 wrote:
Afrodactyl wrote:
Boyz still have a place in the army list, they just need to be used slightly differently is all. Snaggas are good, especially in a vehicle/monster meta. Shoota boys are garbage though, especially in comparison to the army's other choices.

Please elaborate on how you think they should be used now?
Good thing I haven't modelled my shoota boiz kits yet. They will probably end up as choppa boiz or as bodies for lootas+burnas

So I'm currently using three mobs of trukk boys, with 10 models apiece and the Nob has a Klaw. My list is very much weighted as an alpha strike type list, so I've tried to put as many early threats as possible on the board.

The boys race up the field and do one of a handful of things;
1. Get obliterated
2. Get ignored and do nothing
3. Kill something (something that's probably damaged by another unit)
4. Tag something and take it out of the game for a turn

Depending on the flow of the game, all of these are probably a bonus for me.
1. It means those attacks haven't been used against my kommandos, stormboys, buggies, etc, so they are free to cause chaos.
2. It means that they're still there next turn to keep some momentum going by attacking, taking or contesting an objective, etc.
3 and 4. I've finished off or tied up an enemy unit, so I'm starting to limit the damage I'm receiving on the following turns and can put pressure on objectives.

Boys aren't the best choice in the book by a huge margin, but they are still an effective force multiplier tool and pressure unit. We talk about how easy it is to wipe boys and trukks off the table, but when there's so many targets of similar profiles bearing down on the opponent they start needing to make some decisions about target priority.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't a horrendous unit nor an amazing one. But we've always done best when we pick an army type and stick with it, and grots don't mesh with how my list wants to close the gap quickly. Between my trukk boys, kommandos and stormboys I have a lot of fast moving infantry that can take objectives, beat heads, or hide and be action monkeys as the situation requires.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Are lootas and burnas viable?
I know lootas got something of a nerf (why does a fire support unit have a dakka weapon?) but apparently burnas got improved?

**the_scotsman**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are lootas and burnas viable?
I know lootas got something of a nerf (why does a fire support unit have a dakka weapon?) but apparently burnas got improved?

Burnas are one of the better uses of your one-per-detachment Specialist Mob (at least, IMO). Pyromaniacs makes them an 11pt model with a flamer that re-rolls the number of shots, and is one of our more cost efficient anti-chaff options.

Their main problem is, our tax units like Boyz are best at anti-chaff, and we have a lot of incidental anti-chaff firepower and melee capability, leading to a lessened need for dedicated units to take down the fairly rare light infantry models.

Basically any ranged weapon infantry unit (shoota boyz, lootas, tankbustas, flash gits) is kind of outperformed by a competing unit that's just..those same weapons strapped onto a vehicle (Warbikers, squigbuggies, scrapjets, Boomdakka Snazzwagons)

**Kebabcito**

I honestly don't understand the point in those burnas in the list without Trukk. They may go with grots with 'orrible gitz due that the -1 to hit doesn't matter. But I don't know where.

For protecting the deployment zone, I think there are better units by far.

**the_scotsman**

EDIT: Sorry, misunderstood the post.

**koooaei**

Kebabcito wrote:
I honestly don't understand the point in those burnas in the list without Trukk. They may go with grots with 'orrible gitz due that the -1 to hit doesn't matter. But I don't know where.

For protecting the deployment zone, I think there are better units by far.

There are 2 explanations that I see. They hide behind buggies and simply cna:'t be shot at. Or the meta is very terrain-heavy. I've played on tourney boards and I can say there's lots of hiding places.

Taking into consideration he's taken 5(!) Squigbuggies and 2 dakkajets, I think the latter is the case.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Burns also patch up buggies a bit

**gungo**

koooaei wrote:
Snaggas are even worse cause they're more expensive and still don't do anything.
It's painful to compare our infantry to what de, admech and gk got.

Snaggas only benefit is they can ride on a Killrig
The 6++ and +1 to hit on vehicles/monsters is kinda useful…
But not worth the cost upgrade.
I only take them because Killrig can transport them and that saves me from buying a mostly useless trukk for the boys.

**Vineheart01**

yeah thats my opinion too.
Snaggas feel pointless as they are BARELY better than boyz and boyz arent that great to begin with, but the rig is awesome and all it can transport period is beastsnaggas so...might as well pay the extra 30pts for snaggas vs boyz to jump inside it instead of paying for a trukk.

**CthuluIsSpy**

The rig looks silly though, which means that your opponent gets a victory point.
Fashion 40k is a thing