Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Europe's time is a long way from being up. It'll last longer than us.

On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Herzlos wrote:


On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Sovereignty, herzlos - sovereignty! duh!

This is dinlt you are talking to don't forget. Don't ever expect him to read past the sensationalist headlines. Or offer anything of substance in his arguments bar bluster, chest thumping and Har-haring. Remember, after all this is the guy who spouted:

'Probably because people were rightly focused on the important stuff: liberty, sovereignty, border control etc etc
Open skies agreements, trade deals, business concerns etc etc are neither here nor there, because a gilded cage is still a prison...'

He has no answers. And he is blInd to it. And proud of that blindness.

Deadnight wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Sovereignty, herzlos - sovereignty! duh!

This is dinlt you are talking to don't forget. Don't ever expect him to read past the sensationalist headlines. Or offer anything of substance in his arguments bar bluster, chest thumping and Har-haring. Remember, after all this is the guy who spouted:

'Probably because people were rightly focused on the important stuff: liberty, sovereignty, border control etc etc
Open skies agreements, trade deals, business concerns etc etc are neither here nor there, because a gilded cage is still a prison...'

He has no answers. And he is blInd to it. And proud of that blindness.

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.

All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.

The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.

I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.

That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Europe's time is a long way from being up. It'll last longer than us.

On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Finance and services would be a good start. I'm led to believe that we're a global leader in that.

The irony being that the UK government is doing everything it can to make it more difficult to get out of the EU properly. Quicksand maybe, but if it is then the UK dove into it head first.

Its like a runner saying the race is unfair after kneecapping themselves.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.
All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.
The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.
I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.
That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.

I'm Irish. We've had eight hundred years of your 'sovereignty' and 'freedom, liberty and rule of law'. You're talking rubbish.

Oh, and for the record - How dare you.

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.
All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.
The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.
I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.
That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.

I'm Irish. We've had eight hundred years of your 'sovereignty' and 'freedom, liberty and rule of law'. Go ram it.

How dare you.

I can only imagine the Mod reaction if I posted something this...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Sovereignty, herzlos - sovereignty! duh!

This is dinlt you are talking to don't forget. Don't ever expect him to read past the sensationalist headlines. Or offer anything of substance in his arguments bar bluster, chest thumping and Har-haring. Remember, after all this is the guy who spouted:

'Probably because people were rightly focused on the important stuff: liberty, sovereignty, border control etc etc
Open skies agreements, trade deals, business concerns etc etc are neither here nor there, because a gilded cage is still a prison...'

He has no answers. And he is blInd to it. And proud of that blindness.

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.

All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.

The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.

I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.

That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Europe's time is a long way from being up. It'll last longer than us.

On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Finance and services would be a good start. I'm led to believe that we're a global leader in that.

The West was build on slavery, conquest and oppression. That we've been kicked out of most of our empire is testament to that.

Plus if Brexit has any impact of sovereignty and self determination it'll be weakening it. We're a global society so it's in our own interest to get along with our neighbours.

I'm also not sure the far East is waiting to use our banking and services; we're outsourcing a lot of service work to India and China anyway. They also aren't interested in most of our goods. Our education, Sure, but China will overtake us there eventually too

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.
All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.
The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.
I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.
That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.

I'm Irish. We've had eight hundred years of your 'sovereignty' and 'freedom, liberty and rule of law'. Go ram it.

How dare you.

I can only imagine the Mod reaction if I posted something this...

The eu was also built on the eec which was ultimately built on a foundation of two world wars and a century of everyone being obsessed with nationalism and 'sovereignty' - especially the sovereignty they could take from everyone else (which is as much what the west was built on than anything else's - spare me the paper thin charicature of your ideals - we both know the reality of our history). In other words, petty nationalism and each nation only giving a damn about itself led to two world wars, and it was a bad idea, and probably for the best something not to repeat.

The eu is not the enemy. Your island mentality is. You talk of everyone being Somalia without sovereignty. It's the other way around. Somalia is the way it is because everyone thinks their tribe is most important, is the only one that counts, that they'll be find going it alone and laughs at the idea of working together for a better future, because the idea of coming together to be a part of something bigger and collectively better than 'your tribe' is somehow a bad idea.

The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.
I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.

Prior to the eu, we had about eight hundred odd years odd of this from England/U.K., so don't dare come and tell me that the eu is somehow this big bogeyman and without it things are better. Because at the end of the day, you had a seat at the table in the eu. Something you rarely gave your colonies with all your all important 'sovereignty'.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

The West was build on slavery, conquest and oppression. That we've been kicked out of most of our empire is testament to that.

Plus if Brexit has any impact of sovereignty and self determination it'll be weakening it. We're a global society so it's in our own interest to get along with our neighbours.

A part of me wonders if a lot of this is the echo of empire. We've neve been a coloniser. We're a small nation. Not an incredibly rich one either. Because of our history, and how we have been preyed on by stronger neighbours, I wonder if Ireland's general (and historical ) enthusiasm towards the eu is partly due to an understanding that it's better for smaller generally weaker countries to stand together as a bloc, and collectively it lets us play in the big leagues. Otherwise we are prey. I think this is a sentiment generally partially echoed in a lot of the states (thinking Poland and eastern Europe mainly, but to be fair, plenty countries in the west like Spain Portugal, Italy etc can't really be called rich or powerful either -Not like the us) that are a part of the eu and this goes back to the eec' forefathers - benelux.

When I look at the uk, I see a country that still remembers its empire, and is largely quite happy to go into a union, but from my perspective only to command, and never, or only grudgingly to share.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43333274

Interesting times. Northern Ireland is back on the agenda.

Deadnight wrote:


Interesting times. Northern Ireland is back on the agenda.

According to Tusk and Varadkar Northern Ireland IS the agenda.

Nothing moves until the border (or lack thereof) is resolved.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
.....The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.

Honestly, you don't half talk some gak sometimes.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.

Actually what you're seeing is evidence of the complexity of the real world, not fantasy "just walk away" BS. Only the financially secure have little to fear from this scenario, which is why the wealthy elites like Mogg, Boris and their ilk are able to spout total bollocks. If you truly were for the people of Britain, then you would be telling that bunch of elitist establishment arseholes to stuff their fantasies up their well padded arse.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Europe's time is a long way from being up. It'll last longer than us.

On Asia; what do you propose we sell them? What do we buy at a better tariff?

Finance and services would be a good start. I'm led to believe that we're a global leader in that.

...and that is due for the greater part because of our membership of the EU. Once we're out, the value of those services is likely to be much less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

Deadnight wrote:


Interesting times. Northern Ireland is back on the agenda.

According to Tusk and Varadkar Northern Ireland IS the agenda.

Nothing moves until the border (or lack thereof) is resolved.

I can see the response from the tabloid press already, but tbf, Ireland is an EU member, and the EU is doing it's job negotiating in their interests.

I'm struggling to see how the UK Govt is going to deal with this after making themselves beholden to the DUP.

That's why they keep putting it off and why the eu are forcing the issue

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The West was built on freedom, liberty, the rule of law, and the sovereignty that you mock. Nothing else is of consequence if you don't have that foundation in place. You end up like Somalia without them.
All I see from the EU is a modern day court of Louis XIV - locking people in with expected norms and behaviours.
The modern version of this is lock people and nations in in with trade protocols, regulatory protocols, a fiscal union, and when the strait jacket is in place, spring a political union on them.
I've read the history of the EU, I've seen the quotes from past EU heavyweights. This was always their end game. A blind man can see it.
That Britain is having difficulty extracting itself from this quicksand, is proof enough for me.

I'm Irish. We've had eight hundred years of your 'sovereignty' and 'freedom, liberty and rule of law'. Go ram it.

How dare you.

I can only imagine the Mod reaction if I posted something this...

Well I’ve notified them of it, including by PM.

Stick to the topic, if you hit the triangle goodo but don't keep on about it in thread that isn't useful.

 Future War Cultist wrote:


Well I’ve notified them of it, including by PM.

I apologise, but I found dinlt's post horrendously offensive and inconsiderate, let alone inaccurate. Regardless, post has been edited FWC.

jouso wrote:

According to Tusk and Varadkar Northern Ireland IS the agenda.
Nothing moves until the border (or lack thereof) is resolved.

It's an interesting development though. I think most of us here will agree that this is a hugely contentious issue with regard to brexit. The gfa cannot be left to fail. In my mind, this is more important. It's one issue than cannot be thrown under the bus.

They attempted to kick it into the long grass and deal with it later; now we're being told nothing moves until this is sorted. Proper hard ball moment from the eu.

The question is though, what will the response be? What can the response be? Northern Ireland voted to stay by a large margin. May is being propped more up by the dup who are holding her to leave at all costs. where can there be any give? The image that comes to mind is Blake Bortles down to his last throw against the patriots at the NFL play offs - hands on head, head shaking, no play to make. He just knew he was out of options other than a Hail Mary.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Finance and services would be a good start. I'm led to believe that we're a global leader in that.

You mean the area that is already losing jobs as banks are moving to EU in preparation since UK will be losing their banking passport to EU?

Well, if nothing else, today marks the retirement of the phrase 'Brexit dividend'. Except in the negative sense, such as -

there is no such thing as the Brexit dividend

or

there never was any such thing as the Brexit dividend

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I can only imagine the Mod reaction if I posted something this...

It'd be much the same as their reaction each time I post at all. But I have to admit, I did exalt his post.


I hate to suggest this here, but, what's to stop the UK from pulling back from Brexit and saying 'let's stay in until we figure this out'?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I can only imagine the Mod reaction if I posted something this...

It'd be much the same as their reaction each time I post at all. But I have to admit, I did exalt his post.


I hate to suggest this here, but, what's to stop the UK from pulling back from Brexit and saying 'let's stay in until we figure this out'?

Whether or not May calls for a new election?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I hate to suggest this here, but, what's to stop the UK from pulling back from Brexit and saying 'let's stay in until we figure this out'?

The referendum isn't binding, so legally there's nothing that is making the government continue negotiations. They could just say 'screw it, we'll stay in the EU' if they wanted.

But backing out now would make Britain even less stable, and for a country with large finance and insurance sector that's major advantage is its international connectedness and stability, adding in even more instability could be pretty close to fatal. And the referendum was put up by a Conservative government, if a Conservative government was to suddenly turn its back on the result of that poll they'd be slaughtered in the election.

 sebster wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I hate to suggest this here, but, what's to stop the UK from pulling back from Brexit and saying 'let's stay in until we figure this out'?

The referendum isn't binding, so legally there's nothing that is making the government continue negotiations. They could just say 'screw it, we'll stay in the EU' if they wanted.

But backing out now would make Britain even less stable, and for a country with large finance and insurance sector that's major advantage is its international connectedness and stability, adding in even more instability could be pretty close to fatal. And the referendum was put up by a Conservative government, if a Conservative government was to suddenly turn its back on the result of that poll they'd be slaughtered in the election.

Which is one of the reasons we're stuck with it, for conservative party unity. But now we've invoked article 50, it's not even guaranteed that we could stop it without agreement from the EU. I imagine if we were to change our minds, the rebate would be gone as part of the agreement for us to remain, at the very least.

Basically, the conservatives have made a total pigs ear of this whole thing, I imagine that they are going to get a good kicking at the next election when the effects of their gross mismanagement of the country are really starting to be felt.

 sebster wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I hate to suggest this here, but, what's to stop the UK from pulling back from Brexit and saying 'let's stay in until we figure this out'?

The referendum isn't binding, so legally there's nothing that is making the government continue negotiations. They could just say 'screw it, we'll stay in the EU' if they wanted.

But backing out now would make Britain even less stable, and for a country with large finance and insurance sector that's major advantage is its international connectedness and stability, adding in even more instability could be pretty close to fatal. And the referendum was put up by a Conservative government, if a Conservative government was to suddenly turn its back on the result of that poll they'd be slaughtered in the election.

And how happy you would think EU would be for UK wasting EU's money like that? 2 year time limit was invented for a reason.

Even if they stay UK's standing would drop to bottom anyway. Why put much weight on opinions of a member who's hardly stable member and has history of wasting EU's time and money.

We should not ignore the degree to which Brexit is bad news for the rest of the EU.

If the decision was reversed now,a lot of the EU would be happy for the EU not to leave.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We should not ignore the degree to which Brexit is bad news for the rest of the EU.

If the decision was reversed now,a lot of the EU would be happy for the EU not to leave.

Everyone would be relieved if May backtracked.

The status of the UK as a major European political reference and its standing within the EU has been irreversibly damaged, though.

Yeah I think it's a pretty safe bet the eu would let us stay in as-is. They may ask us to reimburse the money wasted though.

If we leave and re-join then we'll lose all our opt outs.

I don't think the EU would ask to be re-imbursed the money "wasted".

Such a demand would put a big lot more lead into the Brexiteer pencil and be completely counterproductive in regards to getting the UK back in.

However I think it is very unlikely the UK will reverse course. I think it is far more likely the UK will re-apply in 10-15 years, and get back in with a much worse deal than we have now.

It will be interesting to see how the new blood coming into politics affects the EU negotiating position, the new parties in Italy seem much less inclined to inflict some sort of punishment on England for leaving.

I remember people postulating that leaders in Europe would want to inflict a harsh Brexit on us to subdue Euroscepticism in their own countries, but if European leaders start becoming Eurosceptic themselves that completely flips that equation!

 Kroem wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the new blood coming into politics affects the EU negotiating position, the new parties in Italy seem much less inclined to inflict some sort of punishment on England for leaving.

I remember people postulating that leaders in Europe would want to inflict a harsh Brexit on us to subdue Euroscepticism in their own countries, but if European leaders start becoming Eurosceptic themselves that completely flips that equation!

Or more cynically (and likely) eurosceptic parties will want a harsh Brexit to point out how bad the EU is (as there is no country with a leave sentiment big enough as of yet besides the UK). Its exactly what Le Pen, Wilders and UKIP did in the EU, feth about and then point out and say "look how the EU feths about". Realtically Eurosceptics have nothing to gain by having the EU moderate its tone, how could they use that to bash the EU with?

Plus self interest, in the end money talks, Italy might have to pay the EU more if the EU is less harsh.

Well, the point of the UK Parliament's report is that if it comes true, it won't be the EU giving the UK a hard time as we will be getting it from world circumstances anyway.

In other words, the best deal the EU can possibly give us, short of EU membership, is going to leave us worse off than now.

If this is what happens, the Hard Brexiteers won't be in any place to blame the EU for the fallout.

The Brexiteer's Guide to trade deal negotiating.

1. Drop Trou
2. Bend over
3. Grab your ankles
4. Hope for the best.

Damian Hinds to cut workload to tackle teacher shortage

It is refreshing to see a government minister admit they have got it wrong and promise meaningful changes.to address the situation.

I am very sick of hearing a news report in which the government is blamed for underfunding the NHS or similar, and "a government spokesperson" rebuts it with a specious bit of crap like "the NHS is treating more patients that at any time in history."

It's is very dangerous, because when I hear that kind of bollocks I can't help major eye-rolling and I get a lot of my news from Radio 4 while driving to work and back.

To get back to Damian Hinds, let's see if what he has promised is going to come about in reality.