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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






it sounds like marines in 8th edition have issues being terrible? I have yet to play 8th, and am not really that motivated to do so. Yet I doubt their balancing issue is a particular one unique to an edition, more like a very fundamental one.

GW is more concerned about selling more marines than less. Consider how interesting a space marine list might be with dramatically lower model count? That's the crux of the issue. They could care less about delivering an enjoyable/unique game, just a game that is enjoyable enough - relative to improving sales. In other words, the customer base should not trust them to make rules. Models yes, rules no.

So if things are actually going to improve (for all armies), there needs to be a movement for the community - and popularize a new set of rules without GWs perspective.


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
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You know it is very easy to make any unit good. Just keep lowering the cost until it is.

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Another one of these? The last one is still going.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/768146.page
   
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Regular Dakkanaut






 mew28 wrote:
You know it is very easy to make any unit good. Just keep lowering the cost until it is.


Cuz lowering cost when a unit is under powered is the default, best solution?

Yep, sounds like a GW approach.


You know, some people would like to play an infantry game that isn't epic scale 28mm.

Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

So, if you haven't played 8th & only "heard" that x is bad in it, explain to me why should I waste time listening to you on how to fix it.
Be concise.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






ccs wrote:
So, if you haven't played 8th & only "heard" that x is bad in it, explain to me why should I waste time listening to you on how to fix it.
Be concise.


Cuz patterns - over the years?
and I'm just tryin to be transparent. I could have left that out and make myself out to be something that I'm not.

Sometimes people can make great points without participating in the thing.

I'm not claiming to have a particular fix for 8th, I'm pointing out the bigger picture issue.... and attempting to stir discussion.

Don't you find it at least a possibility for a model company to justify bad lore/watered down gameplay for increased profits?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/11 07:10:24


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





 kveldulf wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
You know it is very easy to make any unit good. Just keep lowering the cost until it is.


Cuz lowering cost when a unit is under powered is the default, best solution?

Yep, sounds like a GW approach.


You know, some people would like to play an infantry game that isn't epic scale 28mm.

Yes it is the default best solution everyone wins with it. I get to make my SM army bigger, GW sells more models, SM players get usable units. Also it is extremely simple and easy to redo as needed until it is at a point you like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/11 07:23:19


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Make power armor ignore -1 AP
Make them ignore the heavy weapon rule.
Make Bolters have additional AP or damage on a 6 to represent them exploding
Make their strategems affect the whole codex rather than a unit in the codex
Cahpter tactics affect Vehicles.
Make Droppods allow you to ignore the rules for DS and you can disembark 3",

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Italy

Maybe GW wants to sell kits from other armies and since SM already sell very well they don't think that making them more performing will give the company some financial benefit.

If the current state of SM makes them sell more kits overall in their eyes the SM codex is perfect as it is. That's my take about the matter.

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Dakka Veteran





 kveldulf wrote:
So if things are actually going to improve (for all armies), there needs to be a movement for the community - and popularize a new set of rules without GWs perspective.
You need to get people looking purely to make a balanced game, with no investment in winning with 'their' factions. Which is not so easy when you consider that they need to be competitive enough to know/playtest the system competently and invested enough to do the work and do the factions justice without playing favourites.

The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




A.T. wrote:
 kveldulf wrote:
So if things are actually going to improve (for all armies), there needs to be a movement for the community - and popularize a new set of rules without GWs perspective.
You need to get people looking purely to make a balanced game, with no investment in winning with 'their' factions. Which is not so easy when you consider that they need to be competitive enough to know/playtest the system competently and invested enough to do the work and do the factions justice without playing favourites.

The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.


There’s something called a mass line. In this case it means listening to the popular complaint - chaos marine armies don’t have any actual marines in them - and then fixing the underlying problem instead of just going buff marines. It used to be that there would be a bad king, so common people would revolt and overthrow the king, and then appoint someone else king and hope they were nicer. It’s as stupid an idea as wanting to buff marines and hoping GW will do it.

GW and their release schedule are set up to put out a new edition every few years with new codexes and models. They aren’t set up to make a super satisfying playing experience, or even a painting one really.
   
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The problem is that GW has a lot of stuff that is crowded into the lower point bands and the granularity is sucking.

I think GW would do better if they doubled the cost on everything and make the game 4K as standard, and then when back and rexamined the cost on some of the now 10 point Guard options. When you can have a 10 point guard and a 9 point Conscript, and a 11 point Slightly better guard, it opens up some guanlarity in the game that it is missing right now, as a pair of 5 point models might not be the same point cost, but might be the out of line with one being better than the other.

   
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Powerful Irongut




Kvelduff I wish you’d edit the thread title.
   
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Furious Raptor







A.T. wrote:
You need to get people looking purely to make a balanced game, with no investment in winning with 'their' factions. Which is not so easy when you consider that they need to be competitive enough to know/playtest the system competently and invested enough to do the work and do the factions justice without playing favourites.

The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.


What?

The general consensus has been that non-Primaris space marines are not worth the points 40k currently prices them at. Few argue with that. Where argument largely comes from is the fact that many players don't want to see space marines just be less points per model despite this most likely being the most efficient way to go about it. And players can just wait for the Primaris Equivalent (PEQ) Model line is expanded if they want real super soldiers. I believe the reason why many players don't want to just make space marines less ppm is they already feel very underpowered compared to how have they are written in the background. I am not talking about movie marines either. Tactical Marines/Chaos Space Marines only feel a little more than twice as powerful as guardsmen model vs. model. While good, that is no where near the super-human warriors they are made out to be.

Many space marine buffs include actually increasing the points a little (I have seen mostly going back to 15ppm floated around) to go along with some of the increased buffs (often -1 AP to bolters and/or +1 wounds). Again, the point of contention with many detractors is that many of those buffs bring space marines too close to Primaris to be considered. Not that the ideas themselves are just there to make space marines the bestest ever for the points spent. There is much merit to that argument, especially when you consider GW should want Primaris to be the new hotness.

I personally would rather see space marines (and their Chaos counterparts) get some sort of buff rather than just decrease points cost and/or wait for some unknown future where the PEQ actually exists because there are more than half dozen units with a little more than a dozen wargear options and these PEQ exist is all Astartes factions (read: Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines). My biggest issue is that I play Chaos Space Marines and don't have access to PEQ units to bypass weak space marines. I don't know if and when that change either.

So, the argument has been less, 'No way! That's too powerful.' and more 'You are basically describing Primaris. Just use them instead.'

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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
A.T. wrote:
The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.
What?
Somewhat tongue in cheek, but in the last 'buff marines' thread when I pointed out that 3 wound, 2 attack marine with AP -2 weapons might be a bit cheap at 17 points the response I got was "Guardsmen are still better screening units and better at generating CP"

Then the thread started discussing things like 6" jump pack deepstrike ranges (with rerolls to charge), chapter tactics like toughness +1 or half price weapons, and stratagems giving game-long attack roll debuffs and simply disabling all weapons on an enemy vehicle.
   
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller



Ottawa

A.T. wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
A.T. wrote:
The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.
What?
Somewhat tongue in cheek, but in the last 'buff marines' thread when I pointed out that 3 wound, 2 attack marine with AP -2 weapons might be a bit cheap at 17 points the response I got was "Guardsmen are still better screening units and better at generating CP"

Then the thread started discussing things like 6" jump pack deepstrike ranges (with rerolls to charge), chapter tactics like toughness +1 or half price weapons, and stratagems giving game-long attack roll debuffs and simply disabling all weapons on an enemy vehicle.


I notice that happens a lot.

I think that's because the community hasn't come to terms that Primaris are the future and who plays top tables at ITC mean jack.

Seriously, every single one of these threads begins with essentially arguing marines should be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP on their bolters. They want Primaris but not Primaris.

Or Plague Marines but not Plague Marines. Rubrics but not Rubrics. You eventually reach a point where everyone decides that's not good enough so they come up with the craziest gak.

   
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Lemondish wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
A.T. wrote:
The last hundred threads about turning marines into game breaking supermen should tell you that crowdsourcing the job to dakka isn't going to fix 8th.
What?
Somewhat tongue in cheek, but in the last 'buff marines' thread when I pointed out that 3 wound, 2 attack marine with AP -2 weapons might be a bit cheap at 17 points the response I got was "Guardsmen are still better screening units and better at generating CP"

Then the thread started discussing things like 6" jump pack deepstrike ranges (with rerolls to charge), chapter tactics like toughness +1 or half price weapons, and stratagems giving game-long attack roll debuffs and simply disabling all weapons on an enemy vehicle.


I notice that happens a lot.

I think that's because the community hasn't come to terms that Primaris are the future and who plays top tables at ITC mean jack.

Seriously, every single one of these threads begins with essentially arguing marines should be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP on their bolters. They want Primaris but not Primaris.

Or Plague Marines but not Plague Marines. Rubrics but not Rubrics. You eventually reach a point where everyone decides that's not good enough so they come up with the craziest gak.



...I mean, I know a chunk of my position on the subject is that GW should have done the models as a resculpt of normal Marines instead of cutting the Space Marine book in half and leaving half of it with the right statline and half of it with useful wargear, with a convoluted lore explanation that was roundly ridiculed and promptly forgotten about.

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The premise of the thread is that you’re wrong, GW did exactly what they should have done for GW because they’re a profit making company, and so players should abandon the rule book and codexes and set up their local groups and major tournaments with completely separate rules with like AA and different ally rules.
   
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Eastern CT

I agree it seems unlikely that GW is going to invest much design time in improving the OldMarine rules at this stage in the game. Which isn't to say that I think they shouldn't spend any time making OldMarines viable, because not doing so would be a horrendous PR error. That said, I think points drops on OldMarine units is about the best we can expect.

I don't think the Primaris fluff is quite as hamfisted as detractors think either. I think there was more going on than just justifying the new, bigger minis. I think GW is also using it as an excuse to redesign how SM armies work. I've been playing since 3rd edition, and one of the most common complaints about Marines in all that time has been that their units are generalist units that have to function in a game that punishes generalists and rewards specialists. All the Primaris units we've seen thus far are specialist units - Intercessors specialize in holding objectives, Hellblasters specialize in high power shooting, Aggressors specialize in horde-clearing shooting, Inceptors specialize in alpha strike shooting, and Reivers specialize in...I dunno, collecting dust at this point I guess. The point is, that's more than just an excuse to revamp the model range. It's a complete re-envisioning of how the army works.

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Lemondish wrote:

I notice that happens a lot.

I think that's because the community hasn't come to terms that Primaris are the future and who plays top tables at ITC mean jack.

Seriously, every single one of these threads begins with essentially arguing marines should be 2W, 2A, with -1 AP on their bolters. They want Primaris but not Primaris.

Or Plague Marines but not Plague Marines. Rubrics but not Rubrics. You eventually reach a point where everyone decides that's not good enough so they come up with the craziest gak.



What page are any of those options as a troop choice for Black Legion in the Heretic Astartes book? I must of missed that page.

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give them better primarchs
   
 
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