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Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

Yes... Jar-Jar be praised, Jawas... Let them be Jawas...

Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

I am surprised it took this long to be brought up. Whenever I moved my watchers, I always made the "hoo-tini" noise

As an aside if we dont get jetbike sqauds I swear I will I will...be very upset

This one's got a bad motivator, what are you tying to pull?

 Volkov wrote:

Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

I am surprised it took this long to be brought up. Whenever I moved my watchers, I always made the "hoo-tini" noise

As an aside if we dont get jetbike sqauds I swear I will I will...be very upset

Prepare to be very upset good sir.

Maybe ward is trying to redeem himself by NOT provideing us with jetbikes?

You won't get jet bikes, your space marines of the ward dynasty, you'll get dark jet bikes which will be maintained by dark watchers in the dark.

Theophony wrote:
You won't get jet bikes, your space marines of the ward dynasty, you'll get dark jet bikes which will be maintained by dark watchers in the dark.

They'll have Shrouded, right?

I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

Forge-World made the Scimitar Pattern Space Marine Legion Jetbike just recently. So, from my guess, they won't include them into the DA codex. Pretty strange reasoning but that is my take on it. I want jet bikes too but I'm not getting my hopes up for my mother Jetbikes! ... !

Giving people what they clamour for would set up a dangerous precedent of actually delivering on fanbase feedback.

Can't have that, mate.

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

You're crazy if you think there is desire for Jetbikes across the board, there's plenty of Dark Angels players who give a crap about not retconning that particular fluff.

Also, I've seen numerous people make groups of plasma/bolt pistol dual wielding veterans just because they could, so I don't think those "quasi-chaplains" as you call them are nearly as undesirable as you are making out.

I'd also be surprised if Forgeworld jetbikes are what prevented GW from making DA jetbikes, if they thought jetbikes would really be a huge seller they would have made them part of the proper GW line because forgeworld is still niche and will never sell as much of a product as having it in every GW store and a standard codex will.

They may give us Jet bikes, if only to separate us from the Codex further.

I'll be happy if there are no jetbikes. I am not a big fan of GW's "more is better" policy, I think it dilutes the good ideas/designs they have come up with in the past. For example, Dante's design made him stand out and gave the Blood Angel range contrast and something unique. Now we have Sanguinary Guard which just spams the concept, with Sanguinor (heresy!) to top it all off. Thunderwolf cavalry are in the same basket ("we heard you like wolves, so we put a wolf on your wolf, being followed by a wolf, with wolf fur covering half of his wolf iconography"). If DA get jetbikes, the 'special-ness' of Sammael goes out the window. Half-interrogators all duel wielding pistols: c'mon, seriously? Plasma-spam, if it is as widespread as the rumours suggest, is also in the same basket. Plasma weapons and jetbikes do not define the Dark Angels Chapter, and should not be used for that purpose. If that is the crutch that GW leans on, instead of a rich and edifying background, I will be greatly saddened

The Dark Angels I love are brave, loyal without conscience, proud but unforgiven, opinionated and strategically gifted. I want the new Codex units to reflect this, with enough subtlety to respect me as a veteran collector of Dark Angels.

If it doesn't, well... I'll just keep playing and collecting my way

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

You're crazy if you think there is desire for Jetbikes across the board, there's plenty of Dark Angels players who give a crap about not retconning that particular fluff.

\o_ Here's one DA player who hates the idea of jetbikes. It would be lame if the only way to tell Dark Angels apart from other chapters is that they have jetbikes or other extra special bling toys.

Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

 blood lance wrote:
Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

According to the current DA book, there aren't even that many. Sammael's entry specifically says it's the ONLY one left.

Except for all the successor chapters who have their own not-Sammael...

 Ozymandias wrote:
Except for all the successor chapters who have their own not-Sammael...

Nah, they get landspeeder duplicates.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
This one's got a bad motivator, what are you tying to pull?

But I was going to Tashi Station to pick up some power converters!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 blood lance wrote:
Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

According to the current DA book, there aren't even that many. Sammael's entry specifically says it's the ONLY one left.

Actually, the codex doesn't say it is the only one left. It uses a lot of weasel words such as "one of the last", "nigh extinct technology" and other things that give them a lot of wiggle room. In the end I don't give much of a crap in either direction anymore. I just don't want another rehash of the original 1996 codex. I own that one, I love it, and I wont be buying yet another version of it. I want the Dark Angels to get made distinct from standard codex formations. Whether they do that with jet bikes or another unique unit or two matters little to me.

But let's be clear adding jet bikes back is a retcon of a retcon. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing the return of the RT-era RW background of a company-wide orbital bike drop come back (and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

 Ronin_eX wrote:
(and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

Only the Ward haters say that because they forget that the entire Studio has a say on the fluff and that the fluff has to be ok'd by a "Fluff Master" that makes sure nothing makes it in that the Studio as a whole doesn't want.

It's just denial that the entire Studio wants the fluff to be this over the top.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
(and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

Only the Ward haters say that because they forget that the entire Studio has a say on the fluff and that the fluff has to be ok'd by a "Fluff Master" that makes sure nothing makes it in that the Studio as a whole doesn't want.

It's just denial that the entire Studio wants the fluff to be this over the top.

What the is a Fluff Master and where can I find him or her.

But seriously I don't know why people do not understand that. Said codex fluff does have to be approved as well as edited by the editor.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Said codex fluff does have to be approved as well as edited by the editor.

I'm not so sure about the use of editing or editors.

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

I was pretty sure that has been standard procedure at GW for a long time?

I am just hoping that FW comes out with the regular sized jetbikes.

Well I am a ravenwing player first and Dark Angels second. I have played Ravenwing since the appendix of the 3rd Edition rulebook, and well 16 years later, I am kind of wanting more than bikes, attack bikes, and landspeeders. For the jetbike nay-sayers all I can say is; then play codex space marines. I am in the camp that Dark Angels aren't really that divurgent and 'could' be rolled into C:SM with maybe 2 special characters. Space Marine bike armies are better than Ravenwing anyway. I liked the direction Blood Angels took in that they made them a distinct army from Space Marines. Yes wargear like bloody blood fists of bloodiness had to be invented to achieve that, but oh well such is life. Dark Angels should be different then Space Marines, and ret-conning is necessary to achieve that. I wasn't bashing the plasma pistol wielding chaplains, I was just commenting that you need not think outside the box when you still have ideas within.

I'm actually liking the sound of splitting up the specialist companies in to multiple groups (and extending the Inner Circle to actually be seen concretely on the game table outside of just being what we call our characters). Ever since 3rd Edition rolled around and the concept of DW and RW armies became our thing, one thing has always been abundantly clear. And that is that mono-unit armies are boring.

Now, from the sounds of things, GW have realized this and also realized that a lot of Dark Angels players identify as, umm, wingers. Whether they claim to play Greenwing, Deathwing or Ravenwing. This go around actually sounds like it caters to those players while also giving the mixed-arms approach a lot of possible build options.

As Deathwing player who has had a love affair with terminators since he started playing in 2nd Edition, I am really hoping the multiple Deathwing units is a thing. I'd love to be able to build a Deathwing army without composing it from a single troop type and a handful of vehicles. 4th tried to force mixed-arms tactics on everyone by making DA a one-trick pony (and failed because it never made the greenies an important part of the trick). Here is hoping this one will cater to Ravenwing, Deathwing, Greenwing and mixed-DA players alike by being flexible and varied.

As it is some of the Ravenwing rumours sound great (even some focus on Speeders again, something kind of left to the wayside after 3rd Edition gave away our unique vehicle). If Jetbikes end up being some kind of elite unit in there I will be happy. If not then I will still be fine with the other potential rumours like the Nephilim and Black Knights.

Now here is hoping they also take the time to fix some of the background and actually add a little more to it (Wolves and BA get a lot of time spent on initiation, I want to know how the DA go about it for once). In the end I want us to get a codex that makes me go "wow" again and reminds me of the first time I opened Angels of Death. I want a codex that brings the magic back and ends the stagnant design we have been getting since our first codex dropped. And even if only half of these rumours are true, it sounds like we may get it (at the very least these rumours sound exciting, unlike those for 4th Edition where the big things were getting bolt pistols and grenades on our troops for free... oh and combat squads).

 Volkov wrote:
Well I am a ravenwing player first and Dark Angels second. I have played Ravenwing since the appendix of the 3rd Edition rulebook, and well 16 years later, I am kind of wanting more than bikes, attack bikes, and landspeeders. For the jetbike nay-sayers all I can say is; then play codex space marines. I am in the camp that Dark Angels aren't really that divurgent and 'could' be rolled into C:SM with maybe 2 special characters. Space Marine bike armies are better than Ravenwing anyway. I liked the direction Blood Angels took in that they made them a distinct army from Space Marines. Yes wargear like bloody blood fists of bloodiness had to be invented to achieve that, but oh well such is life. Dark Angels should be different then Space Marines, and ret-conning is necessary to achieve that. I wasn't bashing the plasma pistol wielding chaplains, I was just commenting that you need not think outside the box when you still have ideas within.

I can understand that if you focus on the Ravenwing component of the army, it would be good to have more variety. Ravenwing has consistently been given more variety with every new Codex. For example, in 2nd Ed. we only had one type of Landspeeder (AC and HB) and one type of Attack Bike (MM). Look at how the army has grown since then!

Sensible ret-conning doesn't bother me, a single Codex can only explore so much and is limited by what the miniature range can achieve. New units don't bother me, everyone likes new stuff. Ward and the dedicated team of writers/editors at GW do not bother me. Turning something special and unique into a joke does bother me. Blood Angels were distinct before everyone had armour like Dante. Space Wolves were distinct before they were riding wolves. My greatest concern is that people can no longer celebrate the distinctions between Chapters, unless it is explicitly modelled in an over-the-top way. It is unimaginative.

My opinion is that GW could do better with the DA narrative than just taking a good idea and spreading it thinly until it runs out.

...And I'll start playing the SM codex when the Dark Angels are forgiven, thank you very much

Well said Ronin, well said


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I can understand that if you focus on the Ravenwing component of the army, it would be good to have more variety. Ravenwing has consistently been given more variety with every new Codex. For example, in 2nd Ed. we only had one type of Landspeeder (AC and HB) and one type of Attack Bike (MM). Look at how the army has grown since then!

Sensible ret-conning doesn't bother me, a single Codex can only explore so much and is limited by what the miniature range can achieve. New units don't bother me, everyone likes new stuff. Ward and the dedicated team of writers/editors at GW do not bother me. Turning something special and unique into a joke does bother me. Blood Angels were distinct before everyone had armour like Dante. Space Wolves were distinct before they were riding wolves. My greatest concern is that people can no longer celebrate the distinctions between Chapters, unless it is explicitly modelled in an over-the-top way. It is unimaginative.

My opinion is that GW could do better with the DA narrative than just taking a good idea and spreading it thinly until it runs out.

...And I'll start playing the SM codex when the Dark Angels are forgiven, thank you very much

I see what your saying. But Blood angels weren't that distinct. The only unit they had that Space Marines did not were the command squad with jump pack, and the Baal predator. Space wolves were always way out there, whether they are riding wolves are not. I guess my hope is that the DA become less Codex Astartes oriented, and a much different army play-style then smurfs. DA are also in a unique position of really being 3 armies in one, and expanding one doesn't have to happen at the expense at another. So give us plasma chaplains and jetbikes, and lion riding terminators...ok scratch that last one. But DA variety right now is stifled, and I think it could really be expanded.