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 Sidstyler wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Just did a lil' bit of math with our local IG player, who thought that 15 Veteran Lascannons from a full unit of Heavy Weapon Teams should be a good counter... Not counting Cover, they would hit 2 to 3 hits a turn... Whereafter their ranks would be thinned quickly by the Tau'nar's weapons.

This fukken thing right here.

Would that same squad have a chance in hell of taking down a reaver in a single turn, or a fething warlord? Would anyone really expect it to?

I wouldn't be suprised if he did.

Look at a harridans weapons and stats, now compare.
Also, spawning gargs really is a minor point as the suit can remove them with ease.

However, nids GC's are in need of an update anyway.
So comparing any nid GC to another is somewhat moot.

Will be interesting to see however if a new book keeps these rules, or if they get a tweak when going into the book.

 Jackal wrote:
Look at a harridans weapons and stats, now compare.
Also, spawning gargs really is a minor point as the suit can remove them with ease.

However, nids GC's are in need of an update anyway.
So comparing any nid GC to another is somewhat moot.

Will be interesting to see however if a new book keeps these rules, or if they get a tweak when going into the book.

I feel you buddy, besides doesn't a Harridan just carry paid-for Gargoyles rather than spawn them for free?

The Tau'nar might not be Wraithknight levels of stupidity but it is still an extremely points-efficient unit, I don't look forward to facing one.

Yea, its an open topped trans for 20 gargs that you must pay for.

Will be amusing to fight. Cc is pretty much my only way of taking it down.
Throw a GC at it so it can't stomp on me then drag it down slowly.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FW experimental rules, always overpowered.

Although their official rules do tend to be pretty balanced (often more so than GW's).

I see no experimental stamp on it

It's also not in a book yet, so still subject to change.
Though, isn't everything?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FW experimental rules, always overpowered.

Although their official rules do tend to be pretty balanced (often more so than GW's).

I see no experimental stamp on it

Me neither - those look like the rules to me. That being said, it's a bit odd for a FW model to come with its own rules, though that makes sense. At least, none of the FW models I've bought came with their own rules.

Im just glad tau got the GMC they have been needing...This guy can help tau be a top tier army.

It's hard to keep track of the tau conversation with the same topic and same points being discussed simultanously in two different threads. Wouldn't it be better to take the Forgeworld suit talk over to the forgeworld thread?

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 warboss wrote:
40k should just get rid of the whole vehicle rules system and just switch everything to T/W instead. The division of what goes where is just bonkers now (and it was never really very good ever going back to 3rd edition) and there are stark differences in utility and survivability between monstrous creatures and normal vehicles of the same pts cost. I don't play enough 7th ed apoca40k to know if that same imbalance applies to gargs and SH but I'd be shocked if it didn't given the lack of thought given to balance over the past 3 years.

In any case, people should be comparing it to the gold standard of cheese currently, the Wraithknight, and to a lesser extent the Imperial Knight.

That or scrap the glancing hits part and make it so only the shots that penetrate, destroy the vehicle?

That's how it was before.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It can shoot all of it's weapons, and at different targets.

Maybe, or maybe not.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It can shoot all of it's weapons, and at different targets.

Maybe, or maybe not.

That debate is unending, though I play ITC rules mostly and ITC allows all weapons last time i checked

 Ghaz wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It can shoot all of it's weapons, and at different targets.

Maybe, or maybe not.

A bit odd but meh either way. The pulse ordnance multi-driver (POMD), though comprised of 3 big guns, is one weapon profile and listed as a single weapon. The two tri-axisl ion cannons (TIC) are separate weapons and the vigilance defence system is a single weapon.

Grand total of 4 weapons possible to fire. So even if it's limited to two guns you fire the POMD and a TIC or the VDC or fire a two-weapon combination. It doesn't limit its damage output appreciably either way.

anyone with basic reading comprehension and the stick removed from their ass would tell you that it was meant to be like SHW and SHV. They are all in the same class of unit.

But back to the point, Holy gak, awesome vehicle. I am going to paint mine up like the Koenig Monster, even if my army is all bright red farsight enclaves.

You think this codex will allow for battlesuit only armies, or do you think we'll still rely on a subcodex for that?

chaos0xomega wrote:
You think this codex will allow for battlesuit only armies, or do you think we'll still rely on a subcodex for that?

My guess is that it'll be shunted to some stupid formation that requires you to take a XV-LOLWUT PortaPotty Suit Squad of 3 as a requirement similar to how Deathwing and Ravenwing got shunted to formations only.

 warboss wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You think this codex will allow for battlesuit only armies, or do you think we'll still rely on a subcodex for that?

My guess is that it'll be shunted to some stupid formation that requires you to take a XV-LOLWUT PortaPotty Suit Squad of 3 as a requirement similar to how Deathwing and Ravenwing got shunted to formations only.

Uh, Deathwing and Ravenwing have their own CADs in the DA book?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FW experimental rules, always overpowered.

Although their official rules do tend to be pretty balanced (often more so than GW's).

I see no experimental stamp on it

It's the first iteration of the rules, and it's not physical, but a free thing online, meaning it's subject to change which is experimental enough to me. Unless FW ha really changed up the way they do things, I'll bet we'll be getting revised rules for this in a month or two.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 warboss wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You think this codex will allow for battlesuit only armies, or do you think we'll still rely on a subcodex for that?

My guess is that it'll be shunted to some stupid formation that requires you to take a XV-LOLWUT PortaPotty Suit Squad of 3 as a requirement similar to how Deathwing and Ravenwing got shunted to formations only.

Uh, Deathwing and Ravenwing have their own CADs in the DA book?

That would be what I'm referring to. Sorry that I didn't get the nomenclature correct and wrote formation instead of detachment. They went from a full army to a cutdown alternate organization where you MUST take certain things and can't take others. My deathwing army can't be fielded anymore with DA. I hope that doesn't happen with tau.

Meh, I'm looking forwards to the Tau release. Just hope it dosent make me hated by playing it..

The new walker is fine. In fact, I am very happy its NOT OP.
(also, there had been some comments by FW folks at a few cons, that the designation about walker vs. creature, is more about the perceived mobility and dynamic nature of the thing - i.e. can it easily move in different directions and shoot at 360. This makes sense from this regard. However, now they just need to work on the rules of beings vs. vehicles....which is another matter entirely).

In the context of newer power units (wraithknights, knight titans, grav star) and their point costs -this thing is actually quite modest, to be honest.

Now, of course, comparing to the old nid super heavies - it is a much different compairson - however, that is more of a factor that the heriophant is really bad, than that this thing is super good.

In fact, it has rather limited heavy (anti av14 / titan) firepower. I would have rather seen something like a few haywire cluster missiles, or other S10 rail weapons - the tau already have plenty of options for dealing with medium class threats.

Also, it looks MUCH better painted, I have to say.

I have mixed feelings on the other new stuff (a giant stealth suit...isn't that an oxymoron?) but we will see...I did not care for the riptide looks at first either.

 warboss wrote:


That would be what I'm referring to. Sorry that I didn't get the nomenclature correct and wrote formation instead of detachment. They went from a full army to a cutdown alternate organization where you MUST take certain things and can't take others. My deathwing army can't be fielded anymore with DA. I hope that doesn't happen with tau.

Deathwing and Ravenwing got both an alt. FoC and Formations, just for the record.

Also, what kind of Deathwing can't you field with the alt. Deathwing FoC? It has no requirements at all. Except, well, 2 squads of Deathwing Terminators (unreasonably for a Deathwing army?) And it can include absolutely everything remotely related to Deathwing (and even loads of not-Deathwing stuff, if you choose).

Wonderwolf wrote:

 warboss wrote:


That would be what I'm referring to. Sorry that I didn't get the nomenclature correct and wrote formation instead of detachment. They went from a full army to a cutdown alternate organization where you MUST take certain things and can't take others. My deathwing army can't be fielded anymore with DA. I hope that doesn't happen with tau.

Deathwing and Ravenwing got both an alt. FoC and Formations, just for the record.

Also, what kind of Deathwing can't you field with the alt. Deathwing FoC? It has no requirements at all. Except, well, 2 squads of Deathwing Terminators (unreasonably for a Deathwing army?) And it can include absolutely everything remotely related to Deathwing (and even loads of not-Deathwing stuff, if you choose).

Spoiler:

[img]

Storm Eagle and two ravenwing bike squadrons... on top of losing first turn deepstrike.

What a great model. I don't agree at all with the "too many guns" complaint. It's got two gun arms, a pair of turrets, and its main weapon on the shoulders/back. It's got less guns than a lot of other similarly styled walkers, and none of the weapons on this looked "tacked-on". They all look organic and work with the "flow" of the model.

If I played Tau, I'd get one in a heartbeat. Between this and the upcoming Tau books, it's going to be hard to resist taking up the army.

Darth Bob - I'm in the same boat as you.
But I went out and got farsight, 12 crisis suits, 3 broadsides and 2 riptides.
These have been sat in a draw in box's once they were released.

This might get me to start working on them again.

The Tau suits appeal to me, but their lore doesn't. The new Crisis Suits could conceivably convince me otherwise though, especially if the codex turns out well (i.e. balanced to 7.5 standards).

davethepak wrote:
The new walker is fine. In fact, I am very happy its NOT OP.
(also, there had been some comments by FW folks at a few cons, that the designation about walker vs. creature, is more about the perceived mobility and dynamic nature of the thing - i.e. can it easily move in different directions and shoot at 360. This makes sense from this regard. However, now they just need to work on the rules of beings vs. vehicles....which is another matter entirely).

In the context of newer power units (wraithknights, knight titans, grav star) and their point costs -this thing is actually quite modest, to be honest.

Is it really? Modest? You get two Wraithknights for the price of one Tau Big Guy. Wraithknights got T8, 12 wounds 3+ saves. Tau'nar has T9, 10 wounds, 2+ saves, and invulnerable save. The WK can opt for the shield as well, but it's a 5+ save, not a 4+ save. On top, the Tau has the barrier shield vs bad D hits. Survivability wise, they're relatively equal, but if you consider everything the Tau is is still clearly harder to kill than two Wraithknights.

What about the guns? Two Wraithknights bring 4x single shot D sticks. That's pretty meh to be honest, and everyone knows it. The Tau suit on the other hand brings a massive amount of flexible firepower. If the Wraithknights go with the Suncannons to get the invulnerable save (to even in a small way compare with the survivability) then their firepower will only amount to about the Ion cannons, which is just where it gets started. The Tau suit clearly has more firepower than two Wraithknights.

Since the Tau suit is a GMC gun platform it doesn't really lack speed to get where it wants to.

I'm not trying to make an argument about 'what is better' or 'if something is broken' but I think with even a passing look we can see that the Tau suit compares very well with the Wraithknight, points efficiency wise, and to make a statement that the Tau titan is just a 'modest' version of the current power units is clearly ignorant of the facts.

If this thing cost 900 points, you'd have a point, that it's "probably useful in some situations but not that great". However, it doesn't. It costs only 600 points. More survivable than any other big models at the price, and with equal or better guns.

I keep looking at this thing and seeing GMC and all I can inmagine is:

 Therion wrote:

davethepak wrote:
The new walker is fine. In fact, I am very happy its NOT OP.
(also, there had been some comments by FW folks at a few cons, that the designation about walker vs. creature, is more about the perceived mobility and dynamic nature of the thing - i.e. can it easily move in different directions and shoot at 360. This makes sense from this regard. However, now they just need to work on the rules of beings vs. vehicles....which is another matter entirely).

In the context of newer power units (wraithknights, knight titans, grav star) and their point costs -this thing is actually quite modest, to be honest.

Is it really? Modest? You get two Wraithknights for the price of one Tau Big Guy. Wraithknights got T8, 12 wounds 3+ saves. Tau'nar has T9, 10 wounds, 2+ saves, and invulnerable save. The WK can opt for the shield as well, but it's a 5+ save, not a 4+ save. On top, the Tau has the barrier shield vs bad D hits. Survivability wise, they're relatively equal, but if you consider everything the Tau is is still clearly harder to kill than two Wraithknights.

What about the guns? Two Wraithknights bring 4x single shot D sticks. That's pretty meh to be honest, and everyone knows it. The Tau suit on the other hand brings a massive amount of flexible firepower. If the Wraithknights go with the Suncannons to get the invulnerable save (to even in a small way compare with the survivability) then their firepower will only amount to about the Ion cannons, which is just where it gets started. The Tau suit clearly has more firepower than two Wraithknights.

Since the Tau suit is a GMC gun platform it doesn't really lack speed to get where it wants to.

I'm not trying to make an argument about 'what is better' or 'if something is broken' but I think with even a passing look we can see that the Tau suit compares very well with the Wraithknight, points efficiency wise, and to make a statement that the Tau titan is just a 'modest' version of the current power units is clearly ignorant of the facts.

If this thing cost 900 points, you'd have a point, that it's "probably useful in some situations but not that great". However, it doesn't. It costs only 600 points. More survivable than any other big models at the price, and with equal or better guns.

Thanks for a serious answer back - it is refreshing in this day and age.

I can agree, that if you look at all the "other" shots the suit has, they can indeed seem valuable, and within that context, it does seem to put out more firepower than the wraithknights.

My perspective is this - rarity of firepower, especially high power or D.

I play many armies, and to be honest, I have never had a problem with D weapons - I have had problem with the uneven access to them - and its even worse now.

Marines have D weapons in many titans, and in the melee weapon for the knight titans.
Eldar have them everywhere.
Tau have only (prior to this) the tigershark, which is a single shot, and VERY expensive.
Nids ....have none.
Chaos has a few (but not as many as imperial or eldar).

Additionally, while tau are quite shooty ....their shooting has some fascinating access restrictions. For example, only pathfinders can get the rail rifle. Only crisis suits/BS can get S7 missiles, and ONLY the hammer head, which does not come in squadrons can get the S10 railgun. What this does, is places a fairly big restriction in acquiring reliable firepower for use against super heavy opponent.

Enter the tau titan:
A big single shot D blase (nice!)
A bunch of S7 / 8 Shots (not bad). (or 9/2 shots...las cannons).
Durability (very nice).

Durable frame, has a D weapon, lots of supporting weapons, nice.

Now, what does it bring to the table that Tau did not already have....
Durability - not bad, but as a garg, it is VERY susceptible to Grav weapons. The invl shield helps.
A single shot d weapons.

thats it. The other weapons are nice...but what were the tau missing? D weapons. This has one single shot. I would trade all those secondary weapons (I can do that kind of damge with ionheads and riptides) for a couple more D shots.

This is why I say ...modest. The writh knights, have 4 d shots. Compared to this things 1. The D shots were what the tau were desperately lacking (in my humbler opinon) so this is the big comparison.
Don't get me wrong, the other guns are nice....

If it had four D shots, and those weapons - I would call it OP. But since it only has one ....I call it modest - within the context of what it bring to the table.

Hopefully this perspective makes sense - I can respect yours (and again, thank you for a sincere polite opposing view...a rarity these days) - but I just wanted to give some context to mine.

now, of course, I would not want to face one with a tyranid army....but my tyranid bio titans (I have three....) don't want to face a squad of centurions either...but that is more an issue with the bugs than anything else...

davethepak wrote:

 Therion wrote:

davethepak wrote:
The new walker is fine. In fact, I am very happy its NOT OP.
(also, there had been some comments by FW folks at a few cons, that the designation about walker vs. creature, is more about the perceived mobility and dynamic nature of the thing - i.e. can it easily move in different directions and shoot at 360. This makes sense from this regard. However, now they just need to work on the rules of beings vs. vehicles....which is another matter entirely).

In the context of newer power units (wraithknights, knight titans, grav star) and their point costs -this thing is actually quite modest, to be honest.

Is it really? Modest? You get two Wraithknights for the price of one Tau Big Guy. Wraithknights got T8, 12 wounds 3+ saves. Tau'nar has T9, 10 wounds, 2+ saves, and invulnerable save. The WK can opt for the shield as well, but it's a 5+ save, not a 4+ save. On top, the Tau has the barrier shield vs bad D hits. Survivability wise, they're relatively equal, but if you consider everything the Tau is is still clearly harder to kill than two Wraithknights.

What about the guns? Two Wraithknights bring 4x single shot D sticks. That's pretty meh to be honest, and everyone knows it. The Tau suit on the other hand brings a massive amount of flexible firepower. If the Wraithknights go with the Suncannons to get the invulnerable save (to even in a small way compare with the survivability) then their firepower will only amount to about the Ion cannons, which is just where it gets started. The Tau suit clearly has more firepower than two Wraithknights.

Since the Tau suit is a GMC gun platform it doesn't really lack speed to get where it wants to.

I'm not trying to make an argument about 'what is better' or 'if something is broken' but I think with even a passing look we can see that the Tau suit compares very well with the Wraithknight, points efficiency wise, and to make a statement that the Tau titan is just a 'modest' version of the current power units is clearly ignorant of the facts.

If this thing cost 900 points, you'd have a point, that it's "probably useful in some situations but not that great". However, it doesn't. It costs only 600 points. More survivable than any other big models at the price, and with equal or better guns.

Thanks for a serious answer back - it is refreshing in this day and age.

I can agree, that if you look at all the "other" shots the suit has, they can indeed seem valuable, and within that context, it does seem to put out more firepower than the wraithknights.

My perspective is this - rarity of firepower, especially high power or D.

I play many armies, and to be honest, I have never had a problem with D weapons - I have had problem with the uneven access to them - and its even worse now.

Marines have D weapons in many titans, and in the melee weapon for the knight titans.
Eldar have them everywhere.
Tau have only (prior to this) the tigershark, which is a single shot, and VERY expensive.
Nids ....have none.
Chaos has a few (but not as many as imperial or eldar).

Additionally, while tau are quite shooty ....their shooting has some fascinating access restrictions. For example, only pathfinders can get the rail rifle. Only crisis suits/BS can get S7 missiles, and ONLY the hammer head, which does not come in squadrons can get the S10 railgun. What this does, is places a fairly big restriction in acquiring reliable firepower for use against super heavy opponent.

Enter the tau titan:
A big single shot D blase (nice!)
A bunch of S7 / 8 Shots (not bad). (or 9/2 shots...las cannons).
Durability (very nice).

Durable frame, has a D weapon, lots of supporting weapons, nice.

Now, what does it bring to the table that Tau did not already have....
Durability - not bad, but as a garg, it is VERY susceptible to Grav weapons. The invl shield helps.
A single shot d weapons.

thats it. The other weapons are nice...but what were the tau missing? D weapons. This has one single shot. I would trade all those secondary weapons (I can do that kind of damge with ionheads and riptides) for a couple more D shots.

This is why I say ...modest. The writh knights, have 4 d shots. Compared to this things 1. The D shots were what the tau were desperately lacking (in my humbler opinon) so this is the big comparison.
Don't get me wrong, the other guns are nice....

If it had four D shots, and those weapons - I would call it OP. But since it only has one ....I call it modest - within the context of what it bring to the table.

Hopefully this perspective makes sense - I can respect yours (and again, thank you for a sincere polite opposing view...a rarity these days) - but I just wanted to give some context to mine.

now, of course, I would not want to face one with a tyranid army....but my tyranid bio titans (I have three....) don't want to face a squad of centurions either...but that is more an issue with the bugs than anything else...

It's a worthy point, but we don't have the whole picture. In a vacuum, this Tau Titan is worth every point it costs, and more. It's one of the most points efficient units in the game, making it a must take. Now, what you're saying is true in the context of the old Tau codex (Tau could use more D shots), but what about the new codex? We don't know it yet, but considering the treatment the Eldar got, it's not hopelessly optimistic to assume that there's D weapons available to the 'normal' Tau units now too. All types of Rail weapons being the obvious candidates.

We'll just have to wait and see how it all shakes out.