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Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The "Kirby" era never changed or ended


Roundtree was an executive at GW during that era (CFO I think?) and Kirby isn't gone. He is just his own special executive guy now. I think he is even still on the board, though not sure.


The Kirby era very definitively ended when he stepped down as CEO. I believe you are correct that he may still be on the board, but he no longer has a controlling hand in decision making. To say "We're still in the Kirby era" in the face of the complete 180 GW has pulled since the man stepped down is a bit ... daft? IDK what word I'm looking for but let's look at it like this:

Kirby era defined as:

- No community engagement at all (no social media no blog, nothing)
- They stopped doing previews ahead of time due to fear of leaks
- Weekly white dwarf with severely truncated quality but with much needed rules added to require you to buy it
- Several units reboxed in a remarkably anti-consumer method
- Massive rules bloat and point drops forcing players to buy more and more
- No play testing, no real avenue for discussion
- No tournament support
- No community support
- The finecast decision (many people THINK they understand this - most don't. I can elaborate if anyone needs)
- Some of the most blatant anti-consumer behavior we've seen
- Oh it's broken? That sucks for you.
- Here's your Admech! And also a totally separate Skitarii book. Because MONEY!
- New codexes? No! Release 8 million smaller supplements. MOAR BLOAT FOR THE BLOAT GOD!

Let's look at what we have since then:

- Multiple avenues of community contact - they even do podcasts now
- Record levels of community engagement
- Encouragement to play the game at smaller sizes
- Back to a normal WD that sometimes has optional rules in it (no more REQUIRED purchases of WD)
- Play testing for the first time ever (arguable whether or not they're doing it right - it is NOT arguable that it's a huge step forward)
- Tournament support and actively engaging the tournament scene
- Still some anti-consumer issues, but no where near what it was
- Significant effort to streamline rules for a more compact game.
- Bloat could be further removed, they aren't doing the best hob with it, but the rules have never been more organized, and they are at least making an effort here
- Oh it's broken? Ok. We will make sure to address it at the next FAQ release!


Yeah - those two eras seem pretty identical to me .....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 16:52:16


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





The game size is a super important engagement feature. I'd add the three ways to play to that list of engagement features as well.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

PenitentJake wrote:
The game size is a super important engagement feature. I'd add the three ways to play to that list of engagement features as well.


There aren't 3 ways to play, in the grimdarkness of the 21st Millennium there is only...MATCHED PLAY!!!!

Anything less is just kitchen table level anyway & only a moron would fool themselves into thinking thats how you play REAL 40k at all.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







GW put on a different face for the customer, but didn't fundamentally change.

It's got a new suit, a fancy different mask, and possibly even remodeled it's house.

Most of the things you mentioned there were "face" changes. Not fundamental organizational redesigns or anything. They still bloat the rules, they still have supplements (arguably even worse now that they are Day 1 DLC).

I will grant you that they did add:
1) playtests
2) increased release speed for dexes and FAQs.

Arguable whether the first really is different than how it used to be (people say they didn't playtest, other people say they do). But it is definitely more "public facing" now than it was. A mask, or a real change, who knows.

The second is slowing back down (yes, Covid is probably impacting it). We will have to see if everyone gets to a 9th dex before we go on to 10th before I pass judgement but for now I agree this has improved.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
GW put on a different face for the customer, but didn't fundamentally change.

It's got a new suit, a fancy different mask, and possibly even remodeled it's house.

Most of the things you mentioned there were "face" changes. Not fundamental organizational redesigns or anything. They still bloat the rules, they still have supplements (arguably even worse now that they are Day 1 DLC).

I will grant you that they did add:
1) playtests
2) increased release speed for dexes and FAQs.

Arguable whether the first really is different than how it used to be (people say they didn't playtest, other people say they do). But it is definitely more "public facing" now than it was. A mask, or a real change, who knows.

The second is slowing back down (yes, Covid is probably impacting it). We will have to see if everyone gets to a 9th dex before we go on to 10th before I pass judgement but for now I agree this has improved.


They added entire new departments of entirely new people in order to accomplish this and that's not a fundamental organizational redesign? Ok.
They redid every marketing stream, reconstructed their entire brand strategy and fundamentally changed a very large part of how they actually do business. Did ALL of it change? No. Did some of the crappier parts stay? Yeah. Sadly. But you put it like there's literally no difference between where we are now and where we were during Kirby's reign and that's just a pretty gross over-exaggeration imo.

And yes, Covid is absolutely the reason for most of the slow downs. I'm not one to stick up too hard for GW, but seeing how it's impacted other, more critical industries, I think it's safe to say we can't blame the current slow downs on them.

A mask or a real change to how they handle play testing? Remember when, in 5th edition, the play testers all said Grey Knights were way too OP and to not release them? No. You don't because there weren't any. But of course you DO remember when, upon release they were CLEARLY OP and GW confirmed this via community outreach and FAQ'd it so that they wouldn't be abusive through most of the edition. Oh wait no. That didn't happen either.

But hey, remember the recent adjustments they made to their tournament pack based on feedback and play testing? Yes. You do. Because that actually happened. I agree they don't have it quite right yet (GW themselves essentially admitted that the play testers flagged IH as too powerful and that corporate ignored them and released anyway), but I feel like you have to have some blinders on to not see this as an honest and real shift.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:33:29


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

Tycho wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
GW put on a different face for the customer, but didn't fundamentally change.

It's got a new suit, a fancy different mask, and possibly even remodeled it's house.

Most of the things you mentioned there were "face" changes. Not fundamental organizational redesigns or anything. They still bloat the rules, they still have supplements (arguably even worse now that they are Day 1 DLC).

I will grant you that they did add:
1) playtests
2) increased release speed for dexes and FAQs.

Arguable whether the first really is different than how it used to be (people say they didn't playtest, other people say they do). But it is definitely more "public facing" now than it was. A mask, or a real change, who knows.

The second is slowing back down (yes, Covid is probably impacting it). We will have to see if everyone gets to a 9th dex before we go on to 10th before I pass judgement but for now I agree this has improved.


They added entire new departments of entirely new people in order to accomplish this and that's not a fundamental organizational redesign? Ok.

And yes, Covid is absolutely the reason for most of the slow downs. I'm not one to stick up too hard for GW, but seeing how it's impacted other, more critical industries, I think it's safe to say we can't blame the current slow downs on them.

A mask or a real change to how they handle play testing? Remember when, in 5th edition, the play testers all said Grey Knights were way too OP and to not release them? No. You don't because there weren't any. But of course you DO remember when, upon release they were CLEARLY OP and GW confirmed this via community outreach and FAQ'd it so that they wouldn't be abusive through most of the edition. Oh wait no. That didn't happen either.

But hey, remember the recent adjustments they made to their tournament pack based on feedback and play testing? Yes. You do. Because that actually happened. I agree they don't have it quite right yet (GW themselves essentially admitted that the play testers flagged IH as too powerful and that corporate ignored them and released anyway), but I feel like you have to have some blinders on to see this as an honest and real shift.


Source on GW adding *entire new departments of entirely new people*? I haven't heard that one, and I haven't really seen evidence of it. They've probably added 2 or 3 people because they have been releasing codices faster, that's true, but that's not the same as what you said.
   
Made in us
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 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Tycho wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
GW put on a different face for the customer, but didn't fundamentally change.

It's got a new suit, a fancy different mask, and possibly even remodeled it's house.

Most of the things you mentioned there were "face" changes. Not fundamental organizational redesigns or anything. They still bloat the rules, they still have supplements (arguably even worse now that they are Day 1 DLC).

I will grant you that they did add:
1) playtests
2) increased release speed for dexes and FAQs.

Arguable whether the first really is different than how it used to be (people say they didn't playtest, other people say they do). But it is definitely more "public facing" now than it was. A mask, or a real change, who knows.

The second is slowing back down (yes, Covid is probably impacting it). We will have to see if everyone gets to a 9th dex before we go on to 10th before I pass judgement but for now I agree this has improved.


They added entire new departments of entirely new people in order to accomplish this and that's not a fundamental organizational redesign? Ok.

And yes, Covid is absolutely the reason for most of the slow downs. I'm not one to stick up too hard for GW, but seeing how it's impacted other, more critical industries, I think it's safe to say we can't blame the current slow downs on them.

A mask or a real change to how they handle play testing? Remember when, in 5th edition, the play testers all said Grey Knights were way too OP and to not release them? No. You don't because there weren't any. But of course you DO remember when, upon release they were CLEARLY OP and GW confirmed this via community outreach and FAQ'd it so that they wouldn't be abusive through most of the edition. Oh wait no. That didn't happen either.

But hey, remember the recent adjustments they made to their tournament pack based on feedback and play testing? Yes. You do. Because that actually happened. I agree they don't have it quite right yet (GW themselves essentially admitted that the play testers flagged IH as too powerful and that corporate ignored them and released anyway), but I feel like you have to have some blinders on to see this as an honest and real shift.


Source on GW adding *entire new departments of entirely new people*? I haven't heard that one, and I haven't really seen evidence of it. They've probably added 2 or 3 people because they have been releasing codices faster, that's true, but that's not the same as what you said.


They have added a good chunk of the web team and have expanded marketing and community outreach. They hired Mike Brandt (apologies I may have that last name misspelled - I ALWAYS misspell it) and several others to similar new positions. They hired a good grouping of people moving into 8th and again into 9th. True, they also moved around a lot of folks who were already in the company, but they got moved in to new departments. Do you honestly think a company can go from no website (other than the store site), no social media, no community outreach or digital presence at all for nearly a decade to having everything they have running now without some fundamental shifts and new people?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:20:50


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Something that changed after Roundtree took over was splitting the dev teams up so that 40k, AoS and specialist games have different teama who focus on their respecitive games. This has left Cruddace as the only known long time dev working on 40k now that Kelly is writing AoS lore, Vetock is doing LotR, and Jervis is.more of a general manager for the teams rather than being a dev.

Now we know that the teams do talk a bit while inventing new rules, but generally they work seperately from each other.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

Tycho wrote:


They have added a good chunk of the web team and have expanded marketing and community outreach. They hired Mike Brandt (apologies I may have that last name misspelled - I ALWAYS misspell it) and several others to similar new positions. They hired a good grouping of people moving into 8th and again into 9th. True, they also moved around a lot of folks who were already in the company, but they got moved in to new departments. Do you honestly think a company can go from no website (other than the store site), no social media, no community outreach or digital presence at all for nearly a decade to having everything they have running now without some fundamental shifts and new people?



Okay, I'll give you the fact that they hired people since they had literally no web presence. But why should I care that GW hired a bunch of marketers who are (frankly) terrible at *good* marketing, relying on cheap clickbait and hype tricks? None of that makes the game better and it's 100% to Unit's point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:56:23


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Tycho wrote:


They have added a good chunk of the web team and have expanded marketing and community outreach. They hired Mike Brandt (apologies I may have that last name misspelled - I ALWAYS misspell it) and several others to similar new positions. They hired a good grouping of people moving into 8th and again into 9th. True, they also moved around a lot of folks who were already in the company, but they got moved in to new departments. Do you honestly think a company can go from no website (other than the store site), no social media, no community outreach or digital presence at all for nearly a decade to having everything they have running now without some fundamental shifts and new people?



Okay, I'll give you the fact that they hired people since they had literally no web presence. But why should I care that GW hired a bunch of marketers who are (frankly) terrible at *good* marketing, relying on cheap clickbait and hype tricks? None of that makes the game better and it's 100% to Unit's point.


So I don't think you really read the entire post. Or maybe you misunderstood it?

My point was that they have made large changes that were generally just blown off by UNIT. Does the fact that they have an Instagram account make the game better? You could argue for yes and no and be right and wrong in both cases.

Does the fact that they actually talk to and engage with the community again make for a better over-all experience? Yeah, I think it does.

And while you're right that maybe having a better web presence doesn't change the game quality, you know what does? All the other changes I listed that were done hand in hand with this one in order to create an over all better, more engaging experience. Don't get me wrong! I'm not trying to white knight here. I think I did a good job of showing where they are still failing too. It's not all roses and rainbows here.

My main point was just that you have the Kirby era and you have whatever we're going to call the modern era, and it's two dramatically different companies. I think most people (myself included) like "this GW" far better.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Tycho wrote:
- Significant effort to streamline rules for a more compact game.
Well this point's not true...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
Regarding monopose models, this is the sort of thing I hate seeing:



I don't know if these actually count as monopose or not but it's the same issue either way. Four of them are fine but look at the plasmagunner - instead of holding his gun normally (like he's about to fire it) he's holding it up in the air and pointing with his off-hand.

This is fine if you've one got one unit but when you start fielding multiples the fact that every plasmagunner is holding his gun in one hand will start to get very noticeable very quickly.

And this, I will remind you, is a unit that can potentially have 4 plasmagunners. There are no variant models with plasmaguns so if you make four then your Command Squad is going to start looking less like elite warriors and more like children on a school trip.


It's especially funny to me, because I've been playing with 28 of those buggers recently. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


There aren't 3 ways to play, in the grimdarkness of the 21st Millennium there is only...MATCHED PLAY!!!!

Anything less is just kitchen table level anyway & only a moron would fool themselves into thinking thats how you play REAL 40k at all.


2nd millenium.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 00:37:48


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




GW's practices are still anti-player.

The rules are just as bad as any edition of 40k I've played- maybe more, with the extra verbiage that makes reading them a headache.

There are previews, and faster releases.

With errata on or soon after release.

GW sells points changes.


3 Ways To Play is entirely useless. "Narrative" play needs, what, special scenarios? (It would help if GW broadened their idea of "narrative" The story is whatever happens during the game, and it's much more engaging when that happens naturally. That gives you cool moments- like my RWBK sergeant jinking through a full round of fire from an IK, then zooming onto an objective to tie the game. Open Play is patronizing, really. Do they actually think we feel the need for express permission to do whatever we want with our toys? Geez.

"No model no rules" happened. Instead of, maybe. manufacturing minis for them instead! Or, heavens, including all the bits for all combinations of wargear in the kit?

If you want to chat during a GW twitch stream, you must pay $4.99 a month for the privilege. Yes, people will complain, be toxic, blah blah blah. That is what mods are for. This creates a dynamic of "preaching to the choir."

The greatest change is GW discovered marketing. The Community Team is is not well informed because GW inter-departmental communication sucks. WarCom, twitter, twitch, etc. etc. But all you hear from marketing is trite drivel loaded with hyperbole and forced game/lore references. It's complete "hello, fellow kids!"

Community engagement is one-way. A great example of communication between company and players is Reaper's twitch streams.

It is apparent that GW remains terribly out of touch with what players want (I mean rules, not minis like SOB) and their industry. They haven't a clue. Yet, somehow, LOTR and WHUWs are good games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 02:51:57


 
   
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On scions and plasmaguns: to combat that issue, I ended up converting the plasma weapons from hellblasters using the grenade launcher arms from the scion kit. They won't be confused with plasma cannons (scions can't equip them) and they look pretty ace. Best part is, I can pawn off the plasmaguns to players who don't mind having pointy plasma dudes. The rest of the hellblasters got bolt pistols and chainswords to make assault intercessors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 02:57:06


 
   
Made in us
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tycho wrote:
- Significant effort to streamline rules for a more compact game.
Well this point's not true...


Ok. I was talking about the BRB as it relates to now vs the Kirby era. Have they lost control of the bloat again? Yup. I even listed that as something they were struggling with. But you can't possibly tell me the core rules for 8th/9th are not more streamlined than they were in 6/7th.

And honestly, bloat is still a thing yeah, but it's nowhere near what it was ... Not when the core rules for 8th fit on fewer pages than just the USRs for 7th

That's essentially the definition of a more compact game and streamlined rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 03:48:03


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Blastaar wrote:

3 Ways To Play is entirely useless. "Narrative" play needs, what, special scenarios? (It would help if GW broadened their idea of "narrative" The story is whatever happens during the game, and it's much more engaging when that happens naturally. That gives you cool moments- like my RWBK sergeant jinking through a full round of fire from an IK, then zooming onto an objective to tie the game. Open Play is patronizing, really. Do they actually think we feel the need for express permission to do whatever we want with our toys? Geez.


Well, troll is as troll writes.

I do my damned best to cut tourney players slack and talk about how they're an important part of the community and their concerns are often valid, even though I do genuinely feel that the meta-chasing mentality possessed by many competitive players is far more responsible for their dissatisfaction than anything GW has done.

But if you want to dismiss people and the elements of they game they enjoy, I suppose it's your prerogative. My Penitent Vanguard is too busy fighting to redeem the honour of their fallen mission to really miss you while you're away from the table struggling to memorize everyone else's list of strategems and smashing the buttons off your calculator to squeeze just .16 more damage per point or whatever twisted ratio will get you a tourney win.

And I've said it before, the folks who post here about Open play really do seem to be happier than both of us, and my mind isn't yet closed enough to assume there's nothing they might know which we don't. I'm glad GW cares about players like them and players like me. Clearly all that matters to you is you, so enjoy the next meta-watch article, and may you find within it whatever it is you need to be happy... That is, assuming such a thing is even possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 04:08:02


 
   
Made in us
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tycho wrote:
- Significant effort to streamline rules for a more compact game.
Well this point's not true...


They've made a significant effort to streamline the rules, but if you make the rules shorter without considering why they exist you end up having to write a longer game to keep people playing. The most bloated games in the world are the ones that the writers set out to make a simple and easy set of core rules, and then discovered that beyond a certain point the simple, easy core rules become really dull, and they need to stack extra mechanics on top of them to keep the game going.

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ryzouken wrote:
On scions and plasmaguns: to combat that issue, I ended up converting the plasma weapons from hellblasters using the grenade launcher arms from the scion kit. They won't be confused with plasma cannons (scions can't equip them) and they look pretty ace. Best part is, I can pawn off the plasmaguns to players who don't mind having pointy plasma dudes. The rest of the hellblasters got bolt pistols and chainswords to make assault intercessors.


Half of the plasma guns on my Scions came from Grey Hunter/Blood Claw kits.

On that subject It was a bit annoying the way they had the Scion holding the plasma gun but the kits was definitely not monopose.

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I think people are seriously misrepresenting just how bad late Kirby era was. If 40k 8th had hit under Kirby you wouldn't have had points, or even power levels, and may well have been saddled with random initiative (for reference, top of each round the players roll off and the winner decides who goes first that round). And that is just the tip of the iceberg for AoS' deficiencies at launch.

Expensive prices? We are just now hitting a point where the most expensive new releases match what GW was putting out in 2015. No, it doesn't mean there is no problems with now, just that ohhh boy was Kirby era worse.

The company launched a white Dwarf model that was just exclusive packaging on a years-old standard hero figure!

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page


I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history. 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We are just now hitting a point where the most expensive new releases match what GW was putting out in 2015.
Come again?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The company launched a white Dwarf model that was just exclusive packaging on a years-old standard hero figure!


That was done after AoS launched I'm pretty sure, which means it was a Rountree era decision.

Also the amount of people praising GW for doing some very basic gak a table top game company in 2021 is astounding to me. NuGW is the best example of The Emperors New Clothes I've ever seen.


 
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

 Sim-Life wrote:
Also the amount of people praising GW for doing some very basic gak a table top game company in 2021 is astounding to me.

Is "what other companies already do for years" relevant to a person who doesn't play / isn't interested in their game?

Is not acknowledging improvement (combined with a "took you long enough" or "whatever, company XY does this even better") a healthier take?

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Austria

That time was bad, very bad from a gamers point of view

Yet GW did not get back to the "from Gamers for Gamers" stuff that was there before Kirby took over

3 ways to play as an argument for new-GW is stupid
this 3 ways to play have been there since the very beginning of 40k, just because it was not heavily advertised and not a lot of people used it does not mean it was not there

Scenarios with asymetric victory conditions for narritive play (attacker/defender), or OpenPlay were normal Friday Night Store Events in 3rd/4th.

GW has now just accepted that the Game is important to sell models and you need to active support the game to get things going

The Scenario based System with no points equal to some historical Wargames that JJ wanted just does not fit with the easy access on/off pick up games people see as the biggest strength of GW
(on the other hand there are people out there who will not use any system that has point costs for models for reasons, just check out some reviews for Lasalle 2nd Edi rules were the designer advertised it with points to have matched play like games, and those people consider themselves the "real" wargamers)


What we have now:
using non-GW heads/weapons on GW models is forbidden for official GW events

Unit options are exactly for what is in the Box, not just simply adding a Wargear option to the unit no one is going to use because there is a model with a knife around, but only allow the options that come with 1 box

GW has build up some goodwill with their marketing but is slowly turning around to the bad times of Kirby again


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Also the amount of people praising GW for doing some very basic gak a table top game company in 2021 is astounding to me.

Is "what other companies already do for years" relevant to a person who doesn't play / isn't interested in their game?

you can praise a car manufactorer for finally adding a safty belt for the driver seat (and only the driver seat) in 2021, although it is industry standard for 40 years now but because you don't drive cars from other companies it is not relevant what the industry standard is and you have to be really excited about this new things

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 06:42:42


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 kodos wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Also the amount of people praising GW for doing some very basic gak a table top game company in 2021 is astounding to me.

Is "what other companies already do for years" relevant to a person who doesn't play / isn't interested in their game?

you can praise a car manufactorer for finally adding a safty belt for the driver seat (and only the driver seat) in 2021, although it is industry standard for 40 years now but because you don't drive cars from other companies it is not relevant what the industry standard is and you have to be really excited about this new things

Your comparison is weak. GW not having a Youtube channel does not endanger me or my fellow players when playing their game.

And yeah, if for whatever reason you HAVE to drive that manufacturer's cars, because otherwise in some places you would not get to use a car at all (=no communities for other games, as many posters reported in the past), then I would be freaking nuts about finally getting seatbelts lol. Not exactly helping your point.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 07:00:38


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a_typical_hero wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Also the amount of people praising GW for doing some very basic gak a table top game company in 2021 is astounding to me.

Is "what other companies already do for years" relevant to a person who doesn't play / isn't interested in their game?

Is not acknowledging improvement (combined with a "took you long enough" or "whatever, company XY does this even better") a healthier take?


When the argument is "GW actually hasn't changed much at all" then yes. I don't think they deserve praise. The things that other companies do that MATTER like free rules, community engagement and attempting to make a game good are things GW very half-heartedly attempt to do.

Rules are more expensive than ever, their Warhammer Community page and social media is basically being used as advertising and rarely addresses the communities concerns. Meanwhile they take money they COULD use to improve the game by hiring playtesters or actually good rules writers to buy up fan creator projects, alter their creations to suit their corporate sensibilites and launch crap like proprietary apps for a streaming service no one asked for or wanted. Meanwhile the game ping pongs around in terms of balance as GW slaps things with a sledgehammer every 8 months or so hoping this time it'll work and if it doesn't they'll just dump some more models and a couple extra rules on the problem that they'll charge you $40 for.

Meanwhile you have other companies like Wyrd who have free rules, a free crew building app with all the model rules for free, an official forum for the community to center around and frequent erratas and rules changes, frequently hold community events etc etc

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 08:07:42



 
   
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Meanwhile you have other companies like Wyrd who have free rules, a free crew building app with all the model rules for free, an official forum for the community to center around and frequent erratas and rules changes, frequently hold community events etc etc



Many companies do that

PP, DUST, infinity etc...

Just not GW, however with the advances in 3d printing within the next 5 years that may be all they will have left.



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Racerguy180 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
The game size is a super important engagement feature. I'd add the three ways to play to that list of engagement features as well.


There aren't 3 ways to play, in the grimdarkness of the 21st Millennium there is only...MATCHED PLAY!!!!

Anything less is just kitchen table level anyway & only a moron would fool themselves into thinking thats how you play REAL 40k at all.


Bah. The three ways to play in 8th were a joke, it was three versions matched play with your choice points or PL.
However, in 9th there are three actual different ways to play the game: Crusade, Matched Play/Grand Tournament Pack(defined missions and secondaries) and something I don't really want to call open play - essentially just playing some mission without secondaries or agendas. In addition, you have real support for four different game sizes.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We are just now hitting a point where the most expensive new releases match what GW was putting out in 2015.
Come again?


Actually he's correct. 5 man Stormcast boxes for 45€, Varanguard, 3 big horse bois for 80€, the full Fyreslayers line, etc... Release prices for AoS stuff was just insane

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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2013-2015 was the last time Nids have seen new kits and after looking a bit for their prices at the time, they were already at levels of the 2021 releases like Heavy Intercessors. Or even worse in some cases.

2015 prices

$51 for three Tyranid Warriors
$70 for three Hive Guards
$63 for Zoanthropes/Venomthropes
$80 for Harpy/Crone
$73 for Maleceptor/Toxicrene
$63 for Tyrannocyte/Sporocyst


(I found the prices in USD on a older blog post from 2015)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 15:45:47


 
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The price of Tyranid Warriors is a travesty. I wish they were given true terrifying rules and make them xeno custodes troops costing each one something like 40-50 ppm. I love them, and I always wanted to make a heavy tyranid warrior army, but I won't.

Because paying 42,50€ for a box of 3 20ppm miniatures just hurts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 18:00:05


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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