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There seems to be a lot of sympathy around for Chaos, and traitors who have fallen to Chaos.

I really can't understand it.

The idea that people who make pacts with daemons and who worship gods whose sworn purpose is to butcher, spread disease, mutate and derive pleasure from every form of perverted torture are some how the 'good guys' is honestly incomprehensible to me.

I understand that the Imperium of Man is an autocratic, brutal, callous and dogmatic thing, however the idea that this makes Chaos understandable or indeed 'good' is just ludicrous.

I get that people who play Chaos like Chaos, like the fluff, like the models and probably don't like the God-Emperor or the Imperium. But I still don't get how anyone can kid themselves into thinking that Chaos are somehow the 'good guys'...

I think no one (or at least only a few) say that they are the good guys. Still there are tons of reasons why people (including myself) root for the bad guys. A quick trip to google showed me this article, which I found quite interessting:

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/why-do-supervillains-fascinate-us/

Waaaghbert wrote:
I think no one (or at least only a few) say that they are the good guys. Still there are tons of reasons why people (including myself) root for the bad guys. A quick trip to google showed me this article, which I found quite interessting:

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/why-do-supervillains-fascinate-us/

Thanks, looks fascinating. Will give it a read.

The key thing offered by Chaos is the social mobility, because at its heart it is a cutthroat meritocracy revolving around exaltation of the self no matter the cost to anyone else. If one is talented enough, one can achieve power and even immortality as a daemon prince. Of course that vast majority of Chaos followers are not talented enough or are just simply unfortunate enough to be turned to spawn due to the capricious whim of their patron god or because their bodies and minds cannot handle that extra mutation or gift.

The Imperium by contrast has very few avenues for social mobility. Stultifying tradition and rigid social classes constrain nearly everyone. The Inquisition and Rogue Trader dynasties for example are two of the few avenues for the quick witted and flexibly minded to rise.

The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.

 Big Mac wrote:
The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.

No disagreements about evil factions in the Imperium, corrupted powers and the treachery of the First Legion.

However, this doesn't exonerate Heretic Astartes. And there are renegades in the Imperium, including renegade Astartes Chapters, who haven't sworn fealty to Chaos.

40k is not about Good and Evil. It’s about Law vs. Chaos. At best factions can nudge up to neutral on the morality axis. There is no Good faction. Individuals, yes, factions no.

So given the choice of playing an evil faction, what flavor do you prefer?

That same oppressive imperium you identified is part of the issue here.

I agree that Chaos should not be seen as a 'good' force, but the oppression and suppression of the Imperium, particularly with regards to social standing, opportunities, and information, does a lot (causally) to create some of these worshippers in the first place.

The retreat into superstition meant that people are just not aware of what chaos is. So they end up worshipping and following something they don't fully understand because the reasoning is that making them aware of the reality would cause even more people to seek it, to see for themselves.

That and the religious-style superstition of the Imperial leaders themselves. But it is somewhat justified. Having access to information does not say anything about the capacity for the individual to comprehend that information. The internet is a great example of this. And of course, many of these people involved come from situations of horror and toil that we can barely comprehend, it's not that surprising that some of these would turn to something they think will give them the power and influence to change their situation.

But it is important to remember that, while there are individuals you can certainly sympathise with, as a whole Chaos is just another malign force in a galaxy full of them.

My very first faction, when I first walked into a GW store in 1999, was CSM because I liked the plague marine models . I built a chaos army, and when I won, chaos won. When I lost, chaos lost.They became my team, and all other factions, mostly loyalist marines, became the enemy.

So when I started reading 40k/30k fiction I wanted reasons to sympathise with chaos, I was already predisposed to side with them.

I don't think anyone thinks they are good guys...

This only occurs in the lore proper, with renegade characters believing that serving chaos is to serve a rightous purpose, but we as omiscient players know they are completly insane and the playthings of chaos.

I think you're confusing people loving to pretend to be the evil character in the story, or who think that faking the warp twisted bad boy is tremendously badass, but that's wildly different from finding galaxy-wide murder and deamon-allying "good".

A few thoughts:

1) You don't start worshipping nurgle by suddenly growing 30 tentacles and getting maggots in your gut and pus oozing from your eyesockets.
You start small. Most people who convert to Chaos do so through small steps and at the very start its like getting free stuff.

It starts small and many times you might not even realise its Chaos (don't forget many in the Imperium are not educated on Chaos). Once its got its claws into you and warped your mind somewhat then the real madness begins but by then for the vast majority, its far too late to pull out.

2) The Imperium treats humans like machines. Almost quite literally you can have your body tossed aside, some of your brain scooped out and your head made into a servitor or other computing component for the great Imperium machine. Working classes in hive cities work insane work shifts in environments that have never heard of the concept of health and safety. Giving them only just enough time to eat, drink, reproduce and return to work again. There's almost no chance that you will EVER rise up from that state in life; you've no social mobility, no power, no influence, you are nothing to the Imperium.

Meanwhile the upper ranks are a hive of villainy and backstabbing. Ancient power houses that hold vast wealth who are constantly at war with each other for more wealth and influence. Perhaps your house fell on hard times; bad investments, ships lost in the warp; now you're desperate and willing to take shady risks to get advantage. It might start out a few bits of information that lead to greater profit for you; a few hints; then a bit more and a bit more; before you know it you're hiding feathers sprouting from your shoulders. But that's ok its just a minor issue you're super rich now and powerful and gaining more power.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I don't think anyone thinks they are good guys...

This only occurs in the lore proper, with renegade characters believing that serving chaos is to serve a rightous purpose, but we as omiscient players know they are completly insane and the playthings of chaos.

I think you're confusing people loving to pretend to be the evil character in the story, or who think that faking the warp twisted bad boy is tremendously badass, but that's wildly different from finding galaxy-wide murder and deamon-allying "good".

I understand what you're saying, but there was literally a thread on here not that long ago titled: "Chaos are the good guys." Here it is, in fact: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779241.page


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 Overread wrote:
A few thoughts:

1) You don't start worshipping nurgle by suddenly growing 30 tentacles and getting maggots in your gut and pus oozing from your eyesockets.
You start small. Most people who convert to Chaos do so through small steps and at the very start its like getting free stuff.

It starts small and many times you might not even realise its Chaos (don't forget many in the Imperium are not educated on Chaos). Once its got its claws into you and warped your mind somewhat then the real madness begins but by then for the vast majority, its far too late to pull out.

2) The Imperium treats humans like machines. Almost quite literally you can have your body tossed aside, some of your brain scooped out and your head made into a servitor or other computing component for the great Imperium machine. Working classes in hive cities work insane work shifts in environments that have never heard of the concept of health and safety. Giving them only just enough time to eat, drink, reproduce and return to work again. There's almost no chance that you will EVER rise up from that state in life; you've no social mobility, no power, no influence, you are nothing to the Imperium.

Meanwhile the upper ranks are a hive of villainy and backstabbing. Ancient power houses that hold vast wealth who are constantly at war with each other for more wealth and influence. Perhaps your house fell on hard times; bad investments, ships lost in the warp; now you're desperate and willing to take shady risks to get advantage. It might start out a few bits of information that lead to greater profit for you; a few hints; then a bit more and a bit more; before you know it you're hiding feathers sprouting from your shoulders. But that's ok its just a minor issue you're super rich now and powerful and gaining more power.

All pertinent and true, but this is not the issue I have. My issue is with players (outside of the lore/universe) arguing that servants of Chaos are 'good'.


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 Snake Tortoise wrote:
My very first faction, when I first walked into a GW store in 1999, was CSM because I liked the plague marine models . I built a chaos army, and when I won, chaos won. When I lost, chaos lost.They became my team, and all other factions, mostly loyalist marines, became the enemy.

So when I started reading 40k/30k fiction I wanted reasons to sympathise with chaos, I was already predisposed to side with them.

This makes a lot of sense, actually. The tribal 'team' factor may well go a long way to explaining this. Thank you for sharing your experience, it has certainly improved my understanding.


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 Nevelon wrote:
40k is not about Good and Evil. It’s about Law vs. Chaos. At best factions can nudge up to neutral on the morality axis. There is no Good faction. Individuals, yes, factions no.

So given the choice of playing an evil faction, what flavor do you prefer?

I have heard this a lot, and there is certainly a fair amount of truth in it. Morally is subjective to a very great degree, but I think it is possible to compare factions in-universe. For example, the Tau are clearly more positive than say the all-consuming Tyranids or torture-loving Drukhari.

I guess I just find it odd that so many see Chaos more favourably than the Imperium (which I fully admit contains many flaws and evils without question).

Aren't Tyranids a form of immortality though? If you're absorbed by them your substance and memories become part of a muli-galactic super organism!

But yea I think Chaos are popular because bad guys are cool. It's trendy to be a rebel, and Chaos marines are the ultimate anarchists with spikes and electric guitars!
I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of selling their soul to Chaos in exchange for a tentacle arm...

 Big Mac wrote:
The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.

Indeed, the IoM lumps in "scary tentacle" chaos with 'you can take our lives but you'll never take our FREEDUMMM!' chaos. Earth 2019 might be considered a chaos world due to our tech and corruptible world (according to them).

Chaos has the rights to bear arms, scorpion tails and bloodletter heads. How can you stand up to tyranny without that?

 Kroem wrote:
But yea I think Chaos are popular because bad guys are cool. It's trendy to be a rebel, and Chaos marines are the ultimate anarchists with spikes and electric guitars!
I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of selling their soul to Chaos in exchange for a tentacle arm...

I think that's why not-quite-canon Malal keeps popping up so much in fan discussions. It's the god for people who want to be the rebels to the faction of rebels. It's rebellion squared! What's cooler and edgier than a villain who hunts other villains? I'm still surprised that GW seems to have no interest in recycling that concept.

In any case, the Imperium makes it easy to root for the bad guys. When you can't call the good guys "good" with a straight face, you don't feel that conflicted about siding with the bad guys. In a more clear-cut, black and white setting, you'd feel guilty if you wanted the villains to win but in 40k? The universe would end up worse, but not by that much, so why not have fun?

nareik wrote:
Chaos has the rights to bear arms, scorpion tales and bloodletter heads. How can you stand up to tyranny without that?

Vote Chaos: Absolute rights and "equal"oppurtunity employment guaranteed, Also Sky 's the limit if you have the capability.



May or may not require your soul to be sold, horns to be grown, and or the selling of souls of others. Further Chaos is not responsible for any and all issues oyu have, you have henceforth signed this on your own accord.

The emperor already destroyed all hope that humanity could achieve progress and enlightenment - he essentially considered himself and his creations to be above humanity, and was fully just using humanity as a tool to achieve his own goals.

He just did it in a way that was shiny, clean and gold, so you're inclined to view him as a good guy.

Chaos is not just the negative, violent aspects of emotion. It is all emotion. Where the imperium represents repression of feeling in favor of hierarchy, tradition and faith, chaos represents unfettered feeling with all the freedom that provides.

The chaos faction I play, which is the Thousand Sons, are on more of a true quest for knowledge and understanding than any of the dogmatic tech-priests of the corpse emperor. They don't fear what they don't understand, they seek it out and work to comprehend it.

I think Chaos would be far more interesting and complex if it promised free will to its followers. (Whether or not it actually delivered on its promise.)

But it doesn't do that. It assimilates, just like the Imperium does. And it hardly seems to hide its assimilating nature. Whether you turn into a spawn or ascend to daemonhood, you become nothing but an extention of the Dark Gods' will.

I'm pretty new to Warhammer but from the lore I've seen, the Emperor is the WORST! You say that its ludicrous to think of chaos as the good guys, and I think its ludicrous when I hear people say sincerely, the emperor protects.

I in no way think Chaos are the good guys, I'm not super big on any of them either, I like Orks! But, that being said, I will root for them against the imperium because the emperor sucks!

The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?

Chaos feed everyone they capture to their gods; imperium sacrifice minor psykers in the pretense of keeping the Emperor alive on his golden throne so that his psychic lighthouse is lit for travel in the warp.

 Big Mac wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?

Chaos feed everyone they capture to their gods; imperium sacrifice minor psykers in the pretense of keeping the Emperor alive on his golden throne so that his psychic lighthouse is lit for travel in the warp.

That doesn't appear to be true, on either count.

Chaos forces don't sacrifice everyone. That's actually self evident, since there are still people on chaos world wandering about. Additionally, we've seen 'chaos societies' that, while a little squickier in how they track and discipline people (tagging people with parasites instead of computer chips, using warp-critters as tracking hounds), are not particularly worse than Imperial worlds (and better than some).
That doesn't make chaos good or noble or better, but its best to discuss it in terms of what actually goes on, not propaganda.

On the other side of things, we factually know that there are (or were) alternatives to the Emperor chowing down on the souls (not just lives, but souls) of thousands each day. When you have alternatives to atrocities, not using them is a further crime and atrocity.

It was noted earlier, that 40k is not about good vs evil, but order vs disorder.

For the D&D enthusiasts out there, I would consider myself to be Chaotic Good. I dislike and distrust large institutions, prefer to handle my own affairs, and have a John MacLean approach to most things. Walk tall and carry a big stick. I sometimes encourage my eldest child to bend more rules and be less rigid in his thoughts and actions. Like his Mom, he deeply prefers orderly existence.

I also make frequent sacrifices (time, financial, stress) to help others without any expectation of reward. Just my helpful, caring nature. I have volunteered for many charitable organizations, but I tend to do so in a haphazard way, when and as the feeling takes me.


Soooo... what does that have to do with Chaos being the “good guys?” Some people consider Order (capital “O”) to be a moral imperative. I do not, as I consider Order to be nothing but arbitrary nonsense most of the time. In my mind, I believe Responsible Freedom (two capitals!) to be the true moral imperitive. “A person is free, that is willing to live with the consequences of their actions”. You can rob a bank, or try to. Nothing is stopping you. You’re free to do so, if you’re willing to live with the consequences of *probably* going to jail and / or being killed in the attempt.

Now, that’s going dark just for the sake of it. I find people with like-minded ideals tend to peruse noble causes. We don’t like to be fettered with restrictions on our actions, as it makes it more difficult to improve the world around us.

So, in Chaos, were I to attempt to pursue a noble cause, I wouldn’t have the endless bureaucracy of the Imperium fighting against my every breath. Yes, that’s how people fall to Chaos. They see the clearer path and don’t know about the traps along the way. They see a path allowing Responsible Freedom, even if that path is ultimately likely to lead to corruption.

 greatbigtree wrote:
It was noted earlier, that 40k is not about good vs evil, but order vs disorder.

For the D&D enthusiasts out there, I would consider myself to be Chaotic Good. I dislike and distrust large institutions, prefer to handle my own affairs, and have a John MacLean approach to most things. Walk tall and carry a big stick. I sometimes encourage my eldest child to bend more rules and be less rigid in his thoughts and actions. Like his Mom, he deeply prefers orderly existence.

I also make frequent sacrifices (time, financial, stress) to help others without any expectation of reward. Just my helpful, caring nature. I have volunteered for many charitable organizations, but I tend to do so in a haphazard way, when and as the feeling takes me.


Soooo... what does that have to do with Chaos being the “good guys?” Some people consider Order (capital “O”) to be a moral imperative. I do not, as I consider Order to be nothing but arbitrary nonsense most of the time. In my mind, I believe Responsible Freedom (two capitals!) to be the true moral imperitive. “A person is free, that is willing to live with the consequences of their actions”. You can rob a bank, or try to. Nothing is stopping you. You’re free to do so, if you’re willing to live with the consequences of *probably* going to jail and / or being killed in the attempt.

Now, that’s going dark just for the sake of it. I find people with like-minded ideals tend to peruse noble causes. We don’t like to be fettered with restrictions on our actions, as it makes it more difficult to improve the world around us.

So, in Chaos, were I to attempt to pursue a noble cause, I wouldn’t have the endless bureaucracy of the Imperium fighting against my every breath. Yes, that’s how people fall to Chaos. They see the clearer path and don’t know about the traps along the way. They see a path allowing Responsible Freedom, even if that path is ultimately likely to lead to corruption.

This is helpful stuff, and I understand what you're saying (although personally I disagree and believe order is important - I'm with your son and his mother!). As I mentioned before, though, it is possible to be a renegade (i.e. working outside of the confines of Imperial bureaucracy/rule) without falling to Chaos. And indeed ALL who fall to Chaos become corrupted.


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 Haasbioroid wrote:
I'm pretty new to Warhammer but from the lore I've seen, the Emperor is the WORST! You say that its ludicrous to think of chaos as the good guys, and I think its ludicrous when I hear people say sincerely, the emperor protects.

I in no way think Chaos are the good guys, I'm not super big on any of them either, I like Orks! But, that being said, I will root for them against the imperium because the emperor sucks!

The Orks are probably the most honest faction in the 40k universe! Although I have only recently returned to playing, I have been reading and following for years and years. I really don't think the Emperor is the worst, but I guess that'll always be down to personal opinion.

Stolen from the 1d4chan page on Nurgle:

Nurgle is also the god of other stoic emotions, such as: empathy, kinship, happiness, struggle, love, tradition, inevitability, mercy and memory. While Tzeentch seeks to twist fate and change reality, Nurgle teaches to accept entropy and rot and persevere despite it, with solace and happiness. His followers will vigorously spread the joyous teachings of Papa Nurgle and if those living fleshbags won't listen, they'll be shown all the pleasant ways for them to experience the unending cycle of death and rebirth.
In the 1984-esque cold grimdarkness of outer space, where life sucks and everyone's a dick, Nurgle cares. And he loves you. He brings you family, love and the time to embrace that love fully and become one with it. He accepts you for who you are, as long as you stay that way. Also don't wash, don't shave, don't change your underwear. You're great the way you are. He knows that you have been abandoned by your past lovers, friends and family. He knows that you need the feeling of belonging, security and stability in your life. He will embrace you if you trust him to bring you an eternal, painless existence. Just ignore the pus and the smell coming from the forming folds inside and outside your body.

Honestly I think a factor is the mary-sue threads running through marines. It makes people want to see them fail, and even fosters resentment over time (model release rates obviously exacerbating this). 40k is very good at creating a desire to see Chaos win just because it will knock marines down a peg.

This is of course, one factor among multiple.

Well, why do people turn to murder? Why do people turn to drugs? Why do revolutions happen, and sometimes turn out to be worse? Why do people pay good Money to woo peddlers promising snake oil miracle cures?

Why does anyone consciously join any kind of cult (I mean Branch Davidson type stuff here. Let’s not get into religion beyond that).

Desperation. The manipulations of someone smarter who knows how to pull strings etc.

With Chaos Cults, it’s much the same. Those yearning for political change fall to Tzeentch. Those praying to be spared from disease fall to Nurgle. Those seeking escape from drudgery through narcotics, music, art etc fall to Slaanesh. Those that want to punish their oppressors fall to Khorne.

There’s also the strong argument that the vast majority of Cultists never advance far enough to even know what they’re involved in until it’s way, way too late, and the Astra Miltarum are curb stomping them.

To fall to Chaos is to be really quite human. Nobody goes to bed one night a normal, rational human being, then just wakes up a junkie, or a political extremist, or an anti-medicine type, or serial killer. All of those take time. Baby steps down the road to damnation.

And in 40k and AoS, there’s the actual influence of actual Gods and actual rituals to forcibly corrupt the innocent.

That’s why.


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Consider the fallen Primarchs.

Angron, Magnus and Perturabo could all have been saved if The Emperor had given a damn. Horus and Fulgrim were forcibly turned.

Curze, Mortarion, Alpharius and Lorgar? Who knows.

But none just shrugged their shoulders and went ‘yay Chaos’.

None of them. All were a combination of factors.

 Darian Aarush wrote:
But I still don't get how anyone can kid themselves into thinking that Chaos are somehow the 'good guys'...

They don't see the evil up front. They become evil by degrees.


There are a number of half truths and lies you have to swallow before you become something like this.

Historical grievances- real or imagined, become exaggerated and motive attributed. (The Imperium hates you, that's why your life is hard)
An enemy is defined and dehumanised, stripped of rights (The Ecclesiarch and his priests are the enemy, they are the oppressors, violence against them is justified.)
The ideology positions itself in opposition to the established 'evil' (Chaos offers you freedom and opposes their corruption)
Evil acts become acts of justice (Flay the Ecclesiarch and force his congregation to watch!)
Definition of the enemy broadens as required (The congregation are complicit! All corpse worshippers must be shown the true path.)

Suddenly you are standing above a mutilated body holding a knife dripping with blood and can't understand why someone is calling you the bad guy.
Graphic real life example:

Chaos represents freedom in the far future in which there is only war.

Half of "Renegades and Heretics" is just Renegades. People that have abandoned the Imperium, whether they believe in the Ruinous Powers or not, to seek a better life without the suffocating boot of fascism upon their throats day in and day out.

There's basically no arguing that Heretic Astartes past the 32nd Millennium Mark are anything less than flying rodent gak murder hobos with varying flavors of abhorrent nastiness.

However, most cultists and Heretics are just trying to find a better way forward.

Traitor Legions even had some motivating factors back in the annals of the 31st before everything went tits up.

The Iron Warriors are a pretty good example. They were dealt a gak hand, made the best of it, had their nose ground in the dirt for it, and then when they had the gall to raise their head and shout "no more" they were branded as traitors, beaten within an inch of their lives and fled, shattered and broken, to fester and rot for millenia until nothing was left but an empty husk of a legion working feverishly on twisted revolting daemon-creations to wreak their just vengeance upon the Imperium. They definitely aren't good guys but you can see why they're a little bit upset at the world and at this point are just content to watch it all burn to ash.