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Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

Second team tournement with my daemon of khorne.

I still feel that Khorne is the weakest army of 40k.

How could be fixed?

1- drop the bloodletters to 5 pts.
2- something to trigger the hellblade on a 6+ to do 2 wounds (yes we need a +1 to wound buff)
3- characters with 5 wounds, not 4.

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Ynnari and Grey Knights exist. Khorne is weak because the core design of the game makes melee weak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 05:59:16


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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ynnari and Grey Knights exist. Khorne is weak because the core design of the game makes melee weak.
Agreed, the problem with Khorne specifically is tied to an underlying issue rather than the army itself. I think resolving the shooting-melee situation first THEN revisiting Khorne if needed is a better way to go. That said, point reductions in the meantime is probably a good way to slap a band-aid on.

The daemons codex is also in that weird state WHFB 8th Daemons was where you aren't sure if GW wants united daemons to be a thing or not; the different units of different gods are component parts of an army whole that are semi-defective split up, penalizing one for going mono-god. Yet other mechanics strongly incentivize going mono-god and punish mixing them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 06:06:25


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




I have been playing Mono Chaos Daemons since before they got their own codex, and I have to say they've never felt more boring to play than 8th. We're codex "HQ and troops" to a crazy degree, and unlike virtually every other codex We are actively penalised for taking certain unit combinations in our codex! Want a single Tzeentch herald alongside your Khorne for a power? Well no Locus of Khorne for you!

Imagine the marines complaining if in the supplements if you took lets say something random like Assault Marines in a Iron Hands army - You lose your army bonus cause iron hands shoot and not melee! (Again, Im being dramatic but the point stands)

They need to drastically redo how God Bonuses work, they just SHOULD point blank if all detachments are Daemon, then possibly unlocking certain traits/relics if a whole detachment is dedicated to one god in particular.

As for points costs, I am an avid advocate of "Things need to cost more, not less". Bloodletters are 7 pts, I think they're fine. They have enough internal codex support for our troops to slaughter virtually anything on the charge with multiple Str 6 (with herald) power swords potentially doing D2, that amount of damage potential with a 5++ to boot is pretty nice.

I may have to go off and really think about this, maybe post my musings on Proposed rules instead of going too in depth here, but the issue is GW punishes you for wanting to take multiple gods and our non HQ/Troops options are pretty poor across the board regarding how 8th works (even though they're some of the best looking models in the game, Im looking at you Bloodcrushers!)
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Selfcontrol wrote:
Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.


that is not his fault but rather GW's failure, same with daemon engies.

they are propped up as "supposed alternative archetype" yet can't perform to a medicore level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 10:18:03


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




Not Online!!! wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.


that is not his fault but rather GW's failure, same with daemon engies.

they are propped up as "supposed alternative archetype" yet can't perform to a medicore level.



GW did it on purpose. The locus is just a bone thrown to the players who are still sticking to mono-demon.

It's like complaining about playing a mediocre / middle-tiers army by going full World Eaters when Codex CSM is "balanced" around the idea of using psykers to improve many, many units.

Codex CSM is also not designed to support a playstyle where the player cut himself from options that were put in the Codex for a reason. World Eaters are just there because they don't have their own Codex (yet). Hence why World Eaters are also not good (although they are not as mediocre as pure Khorne daemons).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/03 10:29:06


 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






 hellpato wrote:
Second team tournement with my daemon of khorne.

I still feel that Khorne is the weakest army of 40k.

How could be fixed?

1- drop the bloodletters to 5 pts.
2- something to trigger the hellblade on a 6+ to do 2 wounds (yes we need a +1 to wound buff)
3- characters with 5 wounds, not 4.

Bloodletter bomb is still okay, that tactic does not need a massive buff. Make ground-pounding Bloodletters better instead. Give them a Specialist Detachment or just Errata the Legion of Skulls to be more useful in that regard. Khorne needs bonuses to survivability, CP generation and mobility to be something more than a deep striking force, getting personal relics for a HQ in a Bloodletter Specialist Detachment is just a joke. With the exception of DP w. wings and Bloodletters the other units can probably get even cheaper, that being said I prefer GW doing things slow and steady, the meta changing 180 from SM meta to Bloodletter meta would not have been good. I don't know for a fact that 5 pt Bloodletters would be absolutely insane, but I think they would be extremely good.

What could the Legion of Skulls WL trait have been instead of
*Add 1 to your Warlord’s Attacks characteristic. In addition, while there are any enemy CHARACTERS within 6" of your Warlord, add another 1 to your Warlord’s Attacks characteristic.?
*My idea would be "Roll a D6 at the end of each turn adding +1 for each KHORNE DAEMON model that was destroyed within 6" of your Warlord, if you roll 8+ you gain 1 CP."

The relic? From
*Roll one D6 at the end of the Fight phase if any enemy models were slain by the bearer that phase, adding 2 to the result if any of the slain models was a CHARACTER; on a 4+, the bearer regains D3 lost wounds. to
*Add 1 to the Toughness characteristic of LEGION OF SKULLS units within 6" while they are the target of a Shooting attack. In addition, add 1 to the Wounds characteristic of the bearer.

The Stratagem? From
*Use this Stratagem in your Charge phase. Pick an enemy unit that was charged by a LEGION OF SKULLS unit from your army this phase. You can add 2 to charge rolls for other LEGION OF SKULLS units from your army that declare a charge against the same enemy unit (and do not declare charges against any other enemy unit) until the end of the phase. to
*Use this Stratagem at the start of your Movement phase. All LEGION OF SKULLS units from your army must Advance if possible and if they do they must move closer to closest enemy model, any units that do this Advance 8" instead of D6".

It is not that I don't think anti-Character Relics and WL traits should exist for Khorne, I just think they should have been in the codex and the Legion of Skulls is the ideal place to make a foot-slogging Khorne list viable without making deep-striking Khorne too powerful despite Khorne units being geared to that playstyle. Most Daemon WL traits are a joke in my opinion. The Immense Power WL trait giving +1 Strength just isn't anywhere up to par with modern WL traits. If one was concerned with putting too much of Greater Daemon's power budget into powerful WL traits I'd say you could have two-tiered WL traits with one basis effect and a bonus effect for Heralds. I think tournament lists have shown that the mono-god bonuses are well-designed. You shouldn't lose out on a tonne when you go multi-god.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 11:15:52


 
   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




Selfcontrol wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.


that is not his fault but rather GW's failure, same with daemon engies.

they are propped up as "supposed alternative archetype" yet can't perform to a medicore level.



GW did it on purpose. The locus is just a bone thrown to the players who are still sticking to mono-demon.

It's like complaining about playing a mediocre / middle-tiers army by going full World Eaters when Codex CSM is "balanced" around the idea of using psykers to improve many, many units.

Codex CSM is also not designed to support a playstyle where the player cut himself from options that were put in the Codex for a reason. World Eaters are just there because they don't have their own Codex (yet). Hence why World Eaters are also not good (although they are not as mediocre as pure Khorne daemons).


Many of the god's units only function optimally with the locus, you're encouraged to build mono-god detachments, which leaves you either CP starved or with miss-matched units if you try to get 3 gods (since max 3 detachments usually) in generally imo.
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




you're encouraged to build mono-god detachments,


Which is fine.

Mono-god detachments =/= mono-god army.

The OP plays a mono-god army. It sucks. Hard. The Codex is not designed to be played with a mono-god army. The name of his Codex is Chaos Daemons, not Khorne Daemons.

This is why I took the example of World Eaters. "Mono" World Eaters is also bad because Codex CSM is not designed to be played without having access to several key features such as psychic powers. Now taking a World Eaters detachment and another CSM Detachment to gain access to psychic powers ? That's good.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Seems like the biggest problem with mono-KD as an army is the two extra units of bloodletters you have to take ground-pounding who just aren't going to accomplish a heck of a lot.

You're going to spend most of your CP on your 30-man letterbomb, deep striking in with some kind of support character and using the 3d6 charge strat to get in and the double-fight stratagem as long as they're not wiped or have nothing left to attack after their first round. Maybe a daemon prince for the rr 1s aura.

You definitely want 3x skull cannons to remove armor threats, a couple of bloodthirsters and bloodcrushers as distraction carnifexes, and probably some small units of hounds or furies to score.

The most deadweight is those two footslogging units you have to take to get to a battalion.

Taking a super el cheapo detachment of RnH cultists or Nurgle Daemons to supply CP would probably help out immensely.

Something like this:

Battalion Detachment (Khorne Daemons)

Bloodletter of Unfettered Fury
Bloodletter of Unfettered Fury
Daemon Prince (Khorne, Crimson Crown)

20x Bloodletters, Banner+Instrument
20x Bloodletters, Banner+Instrument
20x Bloodletters, Banner+Instrument

3x Bloodcrushers
3x Bloodcrushers

4x Khorne Hounds

Spearhead Detachment (Khorne Daemons)

Bloodletter of Unfettered Fury

Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

Battalion Detachment (Renegades and Heretics)

Renegade Commander
Renegade Commander

Renegade Militia/mutants
Renegade Militia/mutants
Renegade Militia/mutants

Grab some Necromunda corpsegrinders or AoS khorne cultist dudes for those RnH to keep it looking fluffy.

All 3 squads of 'letters spend 1Cp for the banner of blood and 1cp for deep strike. The militia, cannons and hounds pull objective scoring duty and the cannons try to focus enemy armor that can't be killed by melee easily.

New meta list? For sure not. Does it throw an interesting enough curveball to surprise people? Honestly I think it does. It's basically like running a bunch of the melee-only knights with a gaggle of genestealer cultists. 3D6+1 charge with a full reroll is super reliable to get in to combat, and I'd expect to see at least one bloodthirster and the prince in there too turn 2, depending on how shooty your opponent is. 3x T7 3+5++ W16 models who can rotate ion shields is a fairly tall order for most opponents.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




As many have said, the problem with Daemons is that they are Codex HQ+Standard. You need lots of CP for your units to work, so you are inclined to take as many Battalions as possible. This again means you will have lots of Standard units, and if you want them to be of any use, you need to make them big and spend your CP on them. Also you need to fill your HQ slots, either with Heralds, which will again drain your CP because you want to Deep Strike them with your Standards, or with Greater Daemons which will take a big chunks of your points, as you will have to take 3+ of them, if you want some of them to do anything in a game. Also Standards cover anything which Daemons can do: If you want killy units get Bloodletters or Daemonettes, if you are looking for staying power you will get Plaguebearer, if you want a mix of both Horrors are for you.
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Give us back codex Khorne Daemonkin. That would be a start.

And Kharn's butcherhorde for giggles - one trick pony that it was.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

You don't need a Daemonkin book to build a Daemonkin army in 8th Ed., though.

One R&H detachment, one Daemon Detachment, one Heretic Astartes detachment.

Bosh.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts* painted (updated 11/01/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)
* as of Chapter Approved: 2018. Not a typo.

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

Selfcontrol wrote:
Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.


This is not a mistake, this is a challenge.

With the end of 8th ed (9th ed will be there soon) and the new SM/CSM codex took the bonus of Khorne and give them to the space marine (+1 attack on charge). Playing well, Bloodletters go through a Thunderwolf cavalry like an hot knife in butter.

On the other hand, you need to run accros the table to secure objectif again people playing the castle or doing Overwatch on 4+.

PS: they did a good job in AOS, why not starting a good job for 40k

 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 hellpato wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Your first mistake is to play mono-demon.

You are not playing Codex Daemons of Khorne. You are playing Codex Chaos Daemons.


This is not a mistake, this is a challenge.

With the end of 8th ed (9th ed will be there soon) and the new SM/CSM codex took the bonus of Khorne and give them to the space marine (+1 attack on charge). Playing well, Bloodletters go through a Thunderwolf cavalry like an hot knife in butter.

On the other hand, you need to run accros the table to secure objectif again people playing the castle or doing Overwatch on 4+.

PS: they did a good job in AOS, why not starting a good job for 40k


it is a lot easier to make an all-melee army work in AOS, where a waepon with long range is 24". Though I do sympathize - IMO daemons are one of the most boring factions out there, though. I guess it depends on what kind of game people are playing, but I'm guessing most opponents feel like theyre castling vs khorne daemons.

   
Made in bo
Fresh-Faced New User



Bolivia

Give Bloodletters GUNS!

Seriously. Some gun that SPLATS when it hits, ripping apart its target. No magic, pure deamon tech....

No reason why not, khorne is about the rage, not necessarily the hand to hand combat that they´ve been boxed into.

The plastic troops need updating, the mono body pose gets boring after the first 30 you make, all the variants on head and arms are done.

No reason why they can´t have those daemonic guns in fantasy, either....
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Laffin wrote:
Give Bloodletters GUNS!...


Flinging flaming brass skulls is part of the Khornate aesthetic, why not firing flaming brass bullets?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




This why a chaos cults and Renages codex would be good because then you could build a mono god army across 3 codexes if your committed to one god.

This is an issue that hoes way back, the old ork codex had animosity between clans but you couldn’t just play a bad moon army. None of the imperial armies have this issue.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ynnari and Grey Knights exist. Khorne is weak because the core design of the game makes melee weak.
Agreed, the problem with Khorne specifically is tied to an underlying issue rather than the army itself. I think resolving the shooting-melee situation first THEN revisiting Khorne if needed is a better way to go. That said, point reductions in the meantime is probably a good way to slap a band-aid on.

The daemons codex is also in that weird state WHFB 8th Daemons was where you aren't sure if GW wants united daemons to be a thing or not; the different units of different gods are component parts of an army whole that are semi-defective split up, penalizing one for going mono-god. Yet other mechanics strongly incentivize going mono-god and punish mixing them.

You can balance shooting/melee all you want, on a fundamental level an army that focuses on one thing at the expense of others will always struggle. You can't fix an army like khorne without functionally breaking the shooting phase, kind of like how Tau are able to function by essentially ignoring the melee phase thanks to a combination of fly and the greater good.

So yeah I wouldn't ever hold any hope of mono khorne being strong until you give them access to ranged pyskers or dedicated fire support weapons, aka ruin the whole point of them being khorne in the first place.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Why do guns ruin Khorne? Close combat might be favored, but martial skill also shows in shooting.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Granted the Skull Canon model is erm,iffy.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

mrFickle wrote:
This why a chaos cults and Renages codex would be good because then you could build a mono god army across 3 codexes if your committed to one god.


You can do this now, FWIW. Maybe for not much longer, because the rules for Renegades & Heretics are likely to get cut in the new FW books 'cause the Renegades minis are OOP and "no models no rules", but it is currently possible. You need Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts* painted (updated 11/01/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)
* as of Chapter Approved: 2018. Not a typo.

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

Give something to heal your caracters…. like a bloodpriest

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Excommunicatus wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
This why a chaos cults and Renages codex would be good because then you could build a mono god army across 3 codexes if your committed to one god.


You can do this now, FWIW. Maybe for not much longer, because the rules for Renegades & Heretics are likely to get cut in the new FW books 'cause the Renegades minis are OOP and "no models no rules", but it is currently possible. You need Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.


Thanks for the info I was not aware. But I am assuming that doesn’t provide a key word structure with stratagems that make it worth while taking army from 1 god. I mean if you wanted a slaneesh army and took demons CSM and cultists fro the 3 different boos would there be by benefit to that during a game (as if your army had come from one codex) or is it just for your own pleasure?

   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





 Excommunicatus wrote:
You don't need a Daemonkin book to build a Daemonkin army in 8th Ed., though.

One R&H detachment, one Daemon Detachment, one Heretic Astartes detachment.

Bosh.


You do in order to accumulate blood points, or whatever they were called, so you can summon stuff or augment your army.

It was more this mechanic I was alluding to.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





mrFickle wrote:
This why a chaos cults and Renages codex would be good because then you could build a mono god army across 3 codexes if your committed to one god.

This is an issue that hoes way back, the old ork codex had animosity between clans but you couldn’t just play a bad moon army. None of the imperial armies have this issue.


IIRC there isn't actually anything preventing you from using the KHORNE keyword for a detachment, right? You don't get any detachment bonuses, but the khorne daemons detachment bonus is pretty lackluster, the Renegades and Heretics don't get a detachment bonus, and the world eaters detachment bonus is pretty unnecessary for khorne bezerkers to be deleting units left and right.

That way, you could use the cheaper Renegade units to fill slots that are troublesome to fill with khorne daemons, and berzerkers and cultists to fill your troop slots.
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






the_scotsman wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
This why a chaos cults and Renages codex would be good because then you could build a mono god army across 3 codexes if your committed to one god.

This is an issue that hoes way back, the old ork codex had animosity between clans but you couldn’t just play a bad moon army. None of the imperial armies have this issue.


IIRC there isn't actually anything preventing you from using the KHORNE keyword for a detachment, right? You don't get any detachment bonuses, but the khorne daemons detachment bonus is pretty lackluster, the Renegades and Heretics don't get a detachment bonus, and the world eaters detachment bonus is pretty unnecessary for khorne bezerkers to be deleting units left and right.

That way, you could use the cheaper Renegade units to fill slots that are troublesome to fill with khorne daemons, and berzerkers and cultists to fill your troop slots.

Renegades cannot get the Khorne keyword.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Yup, covenant khorne is not khorne.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It’s too complicated. Too much focus goes on armies of the imperium, there’s so much easy choice. More attention needs to be on the chaos and xenos
   
 
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