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2020/04/04 19:53:46
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
As above really. Is being put in to white dwarf the beginning of the end for these factions?
I remember a rumour a little while ago about the clowns not selling very well and that's why they never got a second part of their range. This coupled with the WD news is not putting them in a good place IMHO. This is a real shame for myself as I was looking to move into some harlequins for my eldar. It would also marry up with the DW not being too successfull and not getting their 2nd wave either, which they didn't.
So what do others think? Could it be the death of the watch as a major faction?
Cheers, K.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/04 19:57:56
2020/04/04 19:59:00
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Its going to depend entirely on the rules that each army gets. Deathwatch are already behind the curve by more than a year as they dont have access to any of the Vanguard line from Shadowspear or the Impulsor. That means they would need the following datasheets (at a minimum):
Plus the copy-paste strats from Codex:SM they cant currently use.
Thats the minimum they need to get to pre-PA par with Marines. Add in the obvious Phobos Kill Team, new stratagems, new relics and (maybe) new rules for their "Psychic Awakening Update", there's no way that fits into a White Dwarf article. Literally the only way a WD based supplement that they've described will be viable is if it is the only thing in that edition of the magazine, which they're not ever going to do.
Bottom line?
Gee Dubs just told every Deathwatch and Harlequin player to go feth themselves with a flaming chainsaw.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/04 20:00:51
2020/04/04 19:59:43
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Jackal90 wrote: Blood angels once had rules in WD, as did sisters, they are far from dead.
Laziness doesn’t mean they are killing a faction.
Agreed so did Assassins and Sisters of Silence.
They just could not give them the space sadly :(
Personally I would happy for them to get a full Supplement like the other chosen Chapters - There is the usual Marine sub faction problem - if you give them all the cool stuff that Marines get and then their own - why do you play other Marines.
Harlequins do seem to be in a much worse place without even the HQ characters that they once had - before most other Codexs even existed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/04 20:09:55
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Phobos armour team could just be a single datasheet, the same way that "Veterans" includes everything from Terminators to bikers and "Intercessors" also has Helblasters and Aggressors in their squads.
So then it's just one page for a Phobos kill team and one page for Watch Captain and Librarian. They didn't get the Repulsor, so might not get the Impulsor. Might get the Invictor, as that seems too Aliens/Avatar to not put in the anti-Xenos force.
Two pages of strats, phobos psychic powers, page of relics. page for whatever they have instead of doctrines or a reprint of that with a WL trait or two.
Then we're at 8 pages + a bit for some fluff. You could probably add in two pages and get the individual Phobos units in their too. I think articles have been 12-15 pages in the past haven't they?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/04 20:21:37
2020/04/04 20:51:37
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Tastyfish wrote: Phobos armour team could just be a single datasheet, the same way that "Veterans" includes everything from Terminators to bikers and "Intercessors" also has Helblasters and Aggressors in their squads.
The Deathwatch codex has standalone Aggressors, Hellblasters, Inceptors, Terminators, and Bikes. Every component of the Phobos Kill Team will need its own standalone datasheet, with the possible exception of Infiltrators and Incursors.
Tastyfish wrote: They didn't get the Repulsor, so might not get the Impulsor. Might get the Invictor, as that seems too Aliens/Avatar to not put in the anti-Xenos force.
Deathwatch absolutely have the Repulsor, and the Executioner variant.
2020/04/04 21:12:51
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
kryczek wrote: As above really. Is being put in to white dwarf the beginning of the end for these factions?
So what do others think? Could it be the death of the watch as a major faction?
Cheers, K.
No. Whenever people ask if this or that faction will be killed they're never right. GW doesn't kill 40K factions. Someone will bring up squads, but seriousely, it's been what, 30 years since then? Sisters have been renewed, Genestealers are back, feral Orks got new rules and Custodes have gotten an own Codex. There might be not a fan of Deathwatch or Harlies in the rules Team right now as was the case for Orks and Chaos Space Marines for about 3 editions. Look where they're now. Even Inquisition is still around, a faction where I thought myself they might get killed with 8 th Edition. Deathwatch and Harlies will stick around, both are already completely in Plastic, hence there's simply no failcast in their ranges that needs to be updated.
2020/04/04 21:27:33
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
There is a very real chance they intended a further book that their printers in China can't complete or the delay from the lockdown in China pushes too far back. Given white dwarf is printed in the UK it allows them a quicker turn around, so they could potentially just port the stuff out of a separate PA book and into white dwarf so there isn't a 6-12 month long gap in the book series.
All this talk of it being lazy or having less content is an assumption at best. If they trim anything it'll be fluff pages, which the series isn't noted for doing well with anyway.
2020/04/04 21:52:54
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Sterling191 wrote: Its going to depend entirely on the rules that each army gets. Deathwatch are already behind the curve by more than a year as they dont have access to any of the Vanguard line from Shadowspear or the Impulsor. That means they would need the following datasheets (at a minimum):
Plus the copy-paste strats from Codex:SM they cant currently use.
Thats the minimum they need to get to pre-PA par with Marines. Add in the obvious Phobos Kill Team, new stratagems, new relics and (maybe) new rules for their "Psychic Awakening Update", there's no way that fits into a White Dwarf article. Literally the only way a WD based supplement that they've described will be viable is if it is the only thing in that edition of the magazine, which they're not ever going to do.
Bottom line?
Gee Dubs just told every Deathwatch and Harlequin player to go feth themselves with a flaming chainsaw.
A lot of the Phobos units do not have interchangeable shoulder pads - either as they are partially covered by a camo cloak or they are on a mono pose sculpt. As with the gravis captain this probably means even if some of these units are updated into Deathwatch, they will not all make the cut as GW is all about the no model no rules. My guess is no new units, instead a doctrine style ability, a relic/warlord trait and some copy paste strats.
2020/04/04 22:13:29
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Dudeface wrote: All this talk of it being lazy or having less content is an assumption at best. If they trim anything it'll be fluff pages, which the series isn't noted for doing well with anyway.
I mean, an assumption of laziness is hardly unfounded. Remember when they copy-pasted the Assassins article wholesale?
No, of course not because nobody cared...
2020/04/04 22:18:28
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
I feel it's worth pointing out that getting a ""proper supplement"" does not mean that the faction will be well-treated.
Hey, Ynnari players, how would you like to buy a full-priced book which is just a reprint of the abysmal rules we vomited out in WD?
Hey, Dark Eldar players, how would you like to pay £20 for a name-generator?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/04/04 22:21:19
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
vipoid wrote: I feel it's worth pointing out that getting a ""proper supplement"" does not mean that the faction will be well-treated.
Hey, Ynnari players, how would you like to buy a full-priced book which is just a reprint of the abysmal rules we vomited out in WD?
Hey, Dark Eldar players, how would you like to pay £20 for a name-generator?
But only if you sacrifice another hq unit/Mobility option
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/04/04 22:21:30
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
vipoid wrote: I feel it's worth pointing out that getting a ""proper supplement"" does not mean that the faction will be well-treated.
Hey, Ynnari players, how would you like to buy a full-priced book which is just a reprint of the abysmal rules we vomited out in WD?
Hey, Dark Eldar players, how would you like to pay £20 for a name-generator?
Only marines have had any Supplements - what 7 of them? Plus several PA camapign books that preteneded not to be Marine Supplements.
The crappy Eldar book was a so called campaign.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Ill be honest. I would have rather had my 1ksons PA rules in a WD. That way I wouldn't have had to spend $40 on the disappointment that was Ritual of th Damned.
2020/04/04 22:35:35
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
40K has too many factions as it is. These minor off-shoot factions only exist to drag money out of people via codices, and a handful of additional models. It shouldn't be a stretch that anyone going into a niche of a niche army should be aware of this. These factions should have remained as part of a larger codex.
2020/04/04 22:39:52
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
vipoid wrote: I feel it's worth pointing out that getting a ""proper supplement"" does not mean that the faction will be well-treated.
Hey, Ynnari players, how would you like to buy a full-priced book which is just a reprint of the abysmal rules we vomited out in WD?
Hey, Dark Eldar players, how would you like to pay £20 for a name-generator?
Only marines have had any Supplements - what 7 of them? Plus several PA camapign books that preteneded not to be Marine Supplements.
The crappy Eldar book was a so called campaign.
I have a different name for it:
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/04/04 23:32:23
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
The Salt Mine wrote: Ill be honest. I would have rather had my 1ksons PA rules in a WD. That way I wouldn't have had to spend $40 on the disappointment that was Ritual of th Damned.
Agreed. $10 for my legion's four pages of rules would have been preferable to $40.
2020/04/04 23:46:22
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
So ritual of the damned? Not great for 1ksons... But the absolute frickin bomb for GK, and did for DA what everyone is claiming won't be done for DW.
Harlequins dying? I mean, you saw the new Harlequin model, right? To be fair, I only assumed it was harlequin because it has the same kind of shielding as the Solitaire does. Also because PA 9 will likely contain harlequins.
And by the way, just because DW and Harlies are gonna be in WD, that doesn't mean they aren't gonna get anything in PA.
I mean, for cryin out loud, SoS were in PA, and they got a] a new model in Aleya [though I admit she could be way better] and B] they're going to be in PA AND Talons of the Emperor is back!
By the way, if you're a naysayer, ask yourself this: did you ever post or believe that SoB would get nothing from PA?
Cuz if the answer is yes, here's a nice big plate of crow courtesy of Ephreal Stern. Eat up, and do enjoy. Maybe next time, you'll have a little bit of faith.
I mean, if not, I hear Stern really likes fire.
[Sorry that last part sounded so personal and mean... I've just had a really, really long day of listening to bad opinions, and I probably shouldn't be rage posting. Not healthy.]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/04 23:48:20
2020/04/05 00:11:32
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
40K has too many factions as it is. These minor off-shoot factions only exist to drag money out of people via codices, and a handful of additional models. It shouldn't be a stretch that anyone going into a niche of a niche army should be aware of this. These factions should have remained as part of a larger codex.
Here here.
We'd be better off going back to the slim half-priced codex' for off-shoots again. Where they say stuff like "Tactical squad: Refer to Codex Space Marines" for all of the cross-over, and have some special rules / a few unique squads in them.
There's no need to make stuff like Deathwatch, Storm Troopers, or Blood Angels their own flippin' codex... Also, notice how it's almost entirely Imperium, specifically Marines, who get this stuff?
40K has too many factions as it is. These minor off-shoot factions only exist to drag money out of people via codices, and a handful of additional models. It shouldn't be a stretch that anyone going into a niche of a niche army should be aware of this. These factions should have remained as part of a larger codex.
Here here.
We'd be better off going back to the slim half-priced codex' for off-shoots again. Where they say stuff like "Tactical squad: Refer to Codex Space Marines" for all of the cross-over, and have some special rules / a few unique squads in them.
There's no need to make stuff like Deathwatch, Storm Troopers, or Blood Angels their own flippin' codex... Also, notice how it's almost entirely Imperium, specifically Marines, who get this stuff?
Yeah.
The problem with that is since you don't have to play every faction, or even against any faction, you can already get what you want by simply not buying stuff you don't like. If your suggestions were taken, however, some people would not be able to play what they love.
If you think there's too much emphasis on space marines, I can see that- I even kinda agree. It's just that my solution to the problem isn't "let's take away something that already exists and that somebody somewhere loves;" my solution is "Let's make more of the things that the game currently lacks."
I happen to really like those small Imperial factions, because I'm a story-based campaign player. If I have 5 small detachments from different factions, rather than one big army, I can tell a better story. Since those factions can ally, I can also use my collection to play 40k, at various scales.
If y'all get your way, Inquisitor Dagmarl of the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters of his Chamber Militant will not be able to call upon Inquistor Krale of the Ordo Malleus and his Grey Knights once they learn that the cult they're investigating has summoned daemons. Of course, if we happen to discover that it's a genestealer cult, we can summon Inquisitor Calyx of the ordo xenos and her deathwatch kill team. We haven't finished all the investigation missions yet, so I'm not sure which way it's going to go.
Why would you want to take all of that away from me when all you have to do to solve your problem is just not buy grey knights or death watch.
If you think there's too many Imperial factions, why don't you ask for a Kroot Dex or an Eldar Exodite Army, or try to get our DE Characters back, instead of pissing all over the insane variety of complex stories, allegiances and betrayals that can take place in campaign play exactly because of those interlocking factions you hate so much.
Hell, ask for a version of 40k that is the equivalent of Kill Team Arena, where designers limit unit choices, strategems or other special rules in the name of balance.
That way all the competition folk can enjoy themselves in a tiny little world where there aren't too many different combinations for them to prepare for, while the players who don't care about winning can continue to wonder how the Imperial Guard is going to feel when the have to let this strange new AdMech Ornithopter land at their airbase while the Eclesiarchy is watching, because it's a well known fact that Cardinal Drayus sees the AdMech as barely tolerable heretics, and he's got a whole mission of sisters to enforce his will.
TLDR; Don't like Deathwatch, eh? Cool. Don't buy'em. Everybody wins.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/05 03:53:25
2020/04/05 03:45:36
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
I hope so. Neither group warrants being their own faction. They should be elite units/detachments in the Eldar and Marine codices respectively.
Throw Grey Knights, Inquisition and Custodes into that pot as well. Wouldn't cry if every chapter off-shoot got rolled into the Marine dex either frankly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/05 03:50:25
2020/04/05 04:37:05
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
BlaxicanX wrote: I hope so. Neither group warrants being their own faction. They should be elite units/detachments in the Eldar and Marine codices respectively.
Throw Grey Knights, Inquisition and Custodes into that pot as well. Wouldn't cry if every chapter off-shoot got rolled into the Marine dex either frankly.
Okay, it looks like you're a chaos player, so would you suggest putting Thousand Sons and Death Guard back into CSM?
I don't even play marines, but this game would be stupid boring if there was only one flavour.
It would be like going back in time 30 years; I played back then, so I've been there. It sucked. Do you know what I spent more time doing? Wishing I had as many options as I have now.
Don't like it, don't buy it.
2020/04/05 05:19:22
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
GW rules writers probably just forgot those factions existed and are currently scrambling because all the books have been sent to the printers already.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/05 05:37:48
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
BlaxicanX wrote: I hope so. Neither group warrants being their own faction. They should be elite units/detachments in the Eldar and Marine codices respectively.
Throw Grey Knights, Inquisition and Custodes into that pot as well. Wouldn't cry if every chapter off-shoot got rolled into the Marine dex either frankly.
Okay, it looks like you're a chaos player, so would you suggest putting Thousand Sons and Death Guard back into CSM?
I don't even play marines, but this game would be stupid boring if there was only one flavour.
It would be like going back in time 30 years; I played back then, so I've been there. It sucked. Do you know what I spent more time doing? Wishing I had as many options as I have now.
Don't like it, don't buy it.
Yeah...I'm going to disagree and call you on some bs. They were able to have more units in 2nd edition than later editions (until recently). In fact in 3rd/4th etc. they actively went backwards and removed heaps of content from previous codices. So, yes, you could easily put Deathguard and Thousands back into the CSM codex. It wouldn't be any bigger than the current Space Marine codex.
Genestealer Cult could easily be put within a proper Tyranids codex as well. Grey Knights never needed to be an army, and they should have actually fething done the proper Imperial Agents faction, etc.
2020/04/05 05:49:59
Subject: Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
Given how thin phoenix rising is I can't see any justification for the quins not being included, but then I can't see the justification for the thinness of the drukhari content in particular either.
2020/04/05 07:13:04
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
40K has too many factions as it is. These minor off-shoot factions only exist to drag money out of people via codices, and a handful of additional models. It shouldn't be a stretch that anyone going into a niche of a niche army should be aware of this. These factions should have remained as part of a larger codex.
Here here.
We'd be better off going back to the slim half-priced codex' for off-shoots again. Where they say stuff like "Tactical squad: Refer to Codex Space Marines" for all of the cross-over, and have some special rules / a few unique squads in them.
There's no need to make stuff like Deathwatch, Storm Troopers, or Blood Angels their own flippin' codex... Also, notice how it's almost entirely Imperium, specifically Marines, who get this stuff?
Yeah.
The problem with that is since you don't have to play every faction, or even against any faction, you can already get what you want by simply not buying stuff you don't like. If your suggestions were taken, however, some people would not be able to play what they love.
If you think there's too much emphasis on space marines, I can see that- I even kinda agree. It's just that my solution to the problem isn't "let's take away something that already exists and that somebody somewhere loves;" my solution is "Let's make more of the things that the game currently lacks."
I happen to really like those small Imperial factions, because I'm a story-based campaign player. If I have 5 small detachments from different factions, rather than one big army, I can tell a better story. Since those factions can ally, I can also use my collection to play 40k, at various scales.
If y'all get your way, Inquisitor Dagmarl of the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters of his Chamber Militant will not be able to call upon Inquistor Krale of the Ordo Malleus and his Grey Knights once they learn that the cult they're investigating has summoned daemons. Of course, if we happen to discover that it's a genestealer cult, we can summon Inquisitor Calyx of the ordo xenos and her deathwatch kill team. We haven't finished all the investigation missions yet, so I'm not sure which way it's going to go.
Why would you want to take all of that away from me when all you have to do to solve your problem is just not buy grey knights or death watch.
If you think there's too many Imperial factions, why don't you ask for a Kroot Dex or an Eldar Exodite Army, or try to get our DE Characters back, instead of pissing all over the insane variety of complex stories, allegiances and betrayals that can take place in campaign play exactly because of those interlocking factions you hate so much.
Hell, ask for a version of 40k that is the equivalent of Kill Team Arena, where designers limit unit choices, strategems or other special rules in the name of balance.
That way all the competition folk can enjoy themselves in a tiny little world where there aren't too many different combinations for them to prepare for, while the players who don't care about winning can continue to wonder how the Imperial Guard is going to feel when the have to let this strange new AdMech Ornithopter land at their airbase while the Eclesiarchy is watching, because it's a well known fact that Cardinal Drayus sees the AdMech as barely tolerable heretics, and he's got a whole mission of sisters to enforce his will.
TLDR; Don't like Deathwatch, eh? Cool. Don't buy'em. Everybody wins.
I dont get why people want to remove stuff they dont like? the shoe could easily fit on the other foot. Nobody is forcing you to spend money on something you dont like(no matter what internal motivation they may have).
Now if you're looking at this from the lens of competitive "feth you" play the easiest thing is to advocate for a tourney ruleset(cuz matched isnt "competitive"/"balanced"/whatever) directly from GW.
Rather than pissing in someone elses cornflakes, understand that just cuz the way you play, is not the only way.
DW should just have access to the entire Marine codex with a little keyword rule stating that they can use anything w the Astartes keyword but add X% points.
2020/04/05 07:20:38
Subject: Re:Is WD the death of the DW and a killer for the clowns?
