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Sterling191 wrote:
Its going to depend entirely on the rules that each army gets. Deathwatch are already behind the curve by more than a year as they dont have access to any of the Vanguard line from Shadowspear or the Impulsor. That means they would need the following datasheets (at a minimum):

Eliminators
Incursors
Infiltrators
Suppressors
Impulsor
Phobos Librarian
Phobos Captain

Plus the copy-paste strats from Codex:SM they cant currently use.

Thats the minimum they need to get to pre-PA par with Marines. Add in the obvious Phobos Kill Team, new stratagems, new relics and (maybe) new rules for their "Psychic Awakening Update", there's no way that fits into a White Dwarf article. Literally the only way a WD based supplement that they've described will be viable is if it is the only thing in that edition of the magazine, which they're not ever going to do.

Bottom line?

Gee Dubs just told every Deathwatch and Harlequin player to go feth themselves with a flaming chainsaw.

That's great considering DW and Quins are two of my 4 armies

ThePorcupine wrote:
It's a bodyguard unit for a new sister character. They come as one unit, so... almost assuredly cannot be taken by harlequins.

Kinda remains to be seen. Jarran Kell is a 'bodyguard unit' for Ursukar Creed, yet can be taken without him.
Ghazghkull and Makari are supposed to always be together, yet you can field them separately.

All we know with regards to Stern and her Harlequin Friend are that they can act as one unit.

Dudeface wrote:
Possibly, but I fail to see why that has any direct correlation to whether harlequins are in white dwarf means the range is going the way of the dodo.

Because its the age old circle.

Harlequins are getting squatted because they are so unpopular.
They are unpopular because GW doesn't give them good stuff (new models, better rules).
Its irrational for GW to waste time giving stuff to a tiny faction, they should just focus on the popular ones.
Having almost every release be for Marines is boring and self-defeating.
Yeah, but 70% of people play Marines, because they are intrinsically more appealing. Notice me Guilliman Senpai.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Possibly, but I fail to see why that has any direct correlation to whether harlequins are in white dwarf means the range is going the way of the dodo.

Because its the age old circle.

Harlequins are getting squatted because they are so unpopular.
They are unpopular because GW doesn't give them good stuff (new models, better rules).
Its irrational for GW to waste time giving stuff to a tiny faction, they should just focus on the popular ones.
Having almost every release be for Marines is boring and self-defeating.
Yeah, but 70% of people play Marines, because they are intrinsically more appealing. Notice me Guilliman Senpai.

We know that other NON MARINE stuff sells - otherwise they would not be releasing the new range of Ad Mech or the huge Sisters update. Strangely enough if you make new stuff for non Marine factions it sells - how is this not clear to you?

I am part of the 70% (where EXACTLY does this number come from) who plays Marines - but like many veterans I have loads of armies including Xenos. So what does that prove?

I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They made a new model for Harlequins...so that means they're getting squatted? Really?

Apparently people are upset that they'll have to pay $10 for new rules instead of $40.

The horror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
It's a bodyguard unit for a new sister character. They come as one unit, so... almost assuredly cannot be taken by harlequins.

Or they could be taken in either army. We don't know yet.

I'd say it makes them more likely to be lazy, uninspired trash rules, but hey...I play GSC, so like, no assurances that being in a book won't get you those!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

Why do you still play marines, then? Come party with the fun factions, my dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Possibly, but I fail to see why that has any direct correlation to whether harlequins are in white dwarf means the range is going the way of the dodo.

Because its the age old circle.

Harlequins are getting squatted because they are so unpopular.
They are unpopular because GW doesn't give them good stuff (new models, better rules).
Its irrational for GW to waste time giving stuff to a tiny faction, they should just focus on the popular ones.
Having almost every release be for Marines is boring and self-defeating.
Yeah, but 70% of people play Marines, because they are intrinsically more appealing. Notice me Guilliman Senpai.

Yeah, it is worth noting that, if you subscribe to the theory that competitiveness in some way equals sales, Harlequins have literally never not been one of the worst armies in the game. There was a small, brief window after Shining Spears got nerfed and before Ynnari got dumpstered that one single unit from the Harlequins' codex was taken in a competitive list, and that's been literally it since their release. They've always been one of the least played and lowest winrate factions.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

Maybe, but personal opinion of a few people isn't a sensible guideline.

If GW wanted to bring the game down to, say, 10 Factions/Codexes, the rational way to go about it would be to try to create 10 books that meet roughly 10% of the sales.

In other words, factions doing sub-10% get merged, factions doing above 10% get split up into sub-factions.


Making such choices on the basis of the fluff written by your interns, which is easily one of the least important and most easily changed aspects of the entire construct is just insane.

I guess. As I said, it's a mystery to me how and why marines are such a huge percentage of their business. As time has gone on, they've becoming a dumber and dumber faction.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. As I said, it's a mystery to me how and why marines are such a huge percentage of their business. As time has gone on, they've becoming a dumber and dumber faction.

Why were humans always the most popular race in wow? People like self-insert factions that they feel like are like them but unrelentingly awesome.

It also cannot be overstated how much always being in the starter box helps. I've seen close to probably 200 new people come and go into the hobby since mid-5th when I started, and I would say 3 out of 4 start with one of the two factions that happens to be in the starter box at the time. Sunk Cost Fallacy is an extremely real thing, and the most common way I see people quickly burn out of the hobby is buying up a 2,000 point marine army super fast to try and play the same size games everyone else is, then having a big pile of gray plastic that they don't *really* like, but that they bought into becaue they were already 75$ into it when they started, and they lose interest and leave.

I did my faction research, but that was in 1994. The quarantine is showing me how much I don't miss playing this.

the_scotsman wrote:
Why were humans always the most popular race in wow? People like self-insert factions that they feel like are like them but unrelentingly awesome.

It also cannot be overstated how much always being in the starter box helps. I've seen close to probably 200 new people come and go into the hobby since mid-5th when I started, and I would say 3 out of 4 start with one of the two factions that happens to be in the starter box at the time. Sunk Cost Fallacy is an extremely real thing, and the most common way I see people quickly burn out of the hobby is buying up a 2,000 point marine army super fast to try and play the same size games everyone else is, then having a big pile of gray plastic that they don't *really* like, but that they bought into becaue they were already 75$ into it when they started, and they lose interest and leave.

Blood Elves cannot stop laughing.

Totally agree with you on the starter box though. The fact its always been Marines means almost every new generation of players starts out with a huge percentage playing Marines. Which does cause some people to burnout - but as you say, when they have a load of kits, it seems weird to start from scratch with something else.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

That's a terrible idea, both Deathwatch and Grey Knights have a strong variation in flavour from regular marines. Granted, a solo codex for each could be changed as they don't need a plethora of units, that could be trimmed down but good luck facing the backlash after doing that.

Marines were OK until they made all the extra add on codexes (was not necessary), but still need to keep BA, DA and SW separate due to kits. You could I guess combine the latter 3 into one book I suppose, just as you could combine Grey Knights and Deathwatch.
Now, you could contain many of the factions into one book, but what does that achieve except for it being a much larger book?

The major problem is when you have spent so much time expanding the universe onto the tabletop, it's hard to go backwards without pissing off the villagers.
I'm on the fence with Harlequins (and I have a decent sized Harlie army), I love the concept, the miniatures, the rules (their masques, WTs, strats and relics are better than any of the other Aeldari forces) but they lack the units of a full force.

I think Harlequines would be fine if the Craftworld army was more complete in terms of modern updated sculpts. When the core theme of the army infantry - aspect warriors - are nearly all finecast; it really eats into the army in general.

Eldar needs a big update for the Craftworld.

This to me suggests that starting a side army like Harlequins just isn't the right time to devote resources to making them bigger and better when the "core faction" needs that attention first.


Heck I've wanted an Exocides army from GW for years, but even I would feel really bad if GW went that path soon before updating the main army.






Tyranids did it right in that the core army is basically all pretty updated. Biovores/pyrovores and lictors/deathleapers are the only elite style models left with finecast. Meanwhile there's only one hero (Red Terror*) left in finecast.
So adding in Genestealer cults with a massive wave of new models worked fine. Sure it would have been nice to get new termagaunts without split heads; or a new fancier Genestealer purestrain release etc... but by and large the time was ripe to take the army and expand a sub-faction into a full army from it.



*technically that is about 50% of the named heroes for Tyranids at present though... and 100% of the unique character models (swarmlord is part of the tyrant kit)

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but couldn't Deathwatch really just be done with a single upgrade sprue box for primaris marine kits? What is there in their general concept to warrant a major release in the first place?

People were assuming that all of the Vanguard kits were going to be in Deathwatch.

 BertBert wrote:
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but couldn't Deathwatch really just be done with a single upgrade sprue box for primaris marine kits? What is there in their general concept to warrant a major release in the first place?

God no, ugh! The veteran kit is far more interesting than the Primaris add on. In reality, they don;t need much...you have the kill teams and their insertion vehicle, the Corvus Blackstar. Now that they have added a Primaris kill team, without a real delivery vehicle, the cat's out of the bag. At this point, might as well add a Phobos kill team (Incursors, infiltrators, suppressors, reivers) and then put the snipers on the side. Plus the new transport, and the army is fleshed out even more.


What really bugs me about the whole Deathwatch/Harlequins switch, is how in the heck does GW deem that Custodes, Fabius Bile and assassins need a book (Death Guard I understand), but Deathwatch and Harlequins don't? Adding a Phobos kill team looks like an absolute no brainer to increase sales of those kits. Harlequins are a little trickier, but could have easily be slotted in with the Pariah book with maybe access to using the new sidekick for Stern.

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

That's a terrible idea, both Deathwatch and Grey Knights have a strong variation in flavour from regular marines. Granted, a solo codex for each could be changed as they don't need a plethora of units, that could be trimmed down but good luck facing the backlash after doing that.

Marines were OK until they made all the extra add on codexes (was not necessary), but still need to keep BA, DA and SW separate due to kits. You could I guess combine the latter 3 into one book I suppose, just as you could combine Grey Knights and Deathwatch.
Now, you could contain many of the factions into one book, but what does that achieve except for it being a much larger book?

The major problem is when you have spent so much time expanding the universe onto the tabletop, it's hard to go backwards without pissing off the villagers.
I'm on the fence with Harlequins (and I have a decent sized Harlie army), I love the concept, the miniatures, the rules (their masques, WTs, strats and relics are better than any of the other Aeldari forces) but they lack the units of a full force.

Why exactly is it a terrible idea? The game is saturated with power armor. Cut some if out. Start with the most Mary Sue.

Neither DW nor GK should have existed to being with, imo.

 BertBert wrote:
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but couldn't Deathwatch really just be done with a single upgrade sprue box for primaris marine kits? What is there in their general concept to warrant a major release in the first place?

They've always been kind of the "anti-xenos gadgetry" marine subfaction. To me, they've always had more of an interesting core concept than other factions that are fully fledged codex-having specialboys, like the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, who have about as many unique units as you'd expect a pretty much codex-compliant chapter to have - i.e, a few slightly distinct tweaks and flourishes on their elite units with a largely unchanged marine core.

Do they need a whole CODEX? ....nah, probably not honestly. You could faithfully fit what's cool about the DW into an Inquisition/Imperial Agents codex. Just give them access to most marine supporting units like tanks, transports and basic HQs, and then special hyper-customizable datasheets for Kill Teams and Watch Masters/Captains with the special DW gizmos.

Then again, I think you could probably capture most of what's unique about SW, BA, and DA into a kind of customizable elite marine unit creator. Pick a template unit (Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Vanvets, Company Vets, Sternguard, Company Vets on Bikes) and have a number of special weapons and abilities you can choose to represent the elite units and tactics used by your chapter. "They're vanvets, but they have shiny 2+ armor and scary masks!" "They're terminators, but they can take plasma cannons and they ignore morale!" "They're company vets, but they..." honestly I don't know what makes a wolf guard different from a company vet. Wolf hats?

Why are there such limited anti-Xenos gadgets? There are so few marines, they should all already have this stuff.

The snowflake marines could simply be a few pages in a main codex. Or kill a couple of them off.

Martel732 wrote:
Why are there such limited anti-Xenos gadgets? There are so few marines, they should all already have this stuff.

The snowflake marines could simply be a few pages in a main codex. Or kill a couple of them off.

beacuse before Belligerent Carl was allowed to get away with everything, only the secretive, out of the public eye marine chapters had weird xenotech stuff.

now, Carl is just like "HEY EVERYONE LOOK I MADE THIS COOL AI GIZMO FOR PRIMARIS MARINES! IT USES TAU PULSE TECHNOLOGY AND NECRON GAUSS STUFF AND I DESIGNED THE AI USING TYRANID WARP FUEL" and the inquisition just gives him the old thumbs-up.

 harlokin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 solkan wrote:


I'll challenge you to provide other examples of a "GW expects you to convert the model" situation that isn't a Chaos Knight.

At the risk of belabouring the point, also requiring conversion are Archon with Blast Pistol (or Agoniser), Haemonculus with Hexrifle, and Succubus with Blast Pistol.

can't you just be glad they took all those other troublesome conversion requiring deldar HQ options away

found the entries to remove for the next DE codex

It's funny cos it's true

Ya know, you could have it worse, you could get Corsaired



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Possibly, but I fail to see why that has any direct correlation to whether harlequins are in white dwarf means the range is going the way of the dodo.

Because its the age old circle.

Harlequins are getting squatted because they are so unpopular.
They are unpopular because GW doesn't give them good stuff (new models, better rules).
Its irrational for GW to waste time giving stuff to a tiny faction, they should just focus on the popular ones.
Having almost every release be for Marines is boring and self-defeating.
Yeah, but 70% of people play Marines, because they are intrinsically more appealing. Notice me Guilliman Senpai.

Ding Ding Ding.
We have a winner.

Well, that's how wars are really fought. But still doesn't explain why marines didn't have all the stuff before.

Remember, even the Church broke down and started using crossbows.

At any rate, there's like 3-5 power armor armies I'd squat before Harlequins.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why are there such limited anti-Xenos gadgets? There are so few marines, they should all already have this stuff.

The snowflake marines could simply be a few pages in a main codex. Or kill a couple of them off.

beacuse before Belligerent Carl was allowed to get away with everything, only the secretive, out of the public eye marine chapters had weird xenotech stuff.

now, Carl is just like "HEY EVERYONE LOOK I MADE THIS COOL AI GIZMO FOR PRIMARIS MARINES! IT USES TAU PULSE TECHNOLOGY AND NECRON GAUSS STUFF AND I DESIGNED THE AI USING TYRANID WARP FUEL" and the inquisition just gives him the old thumbs-up.

Wow, which unit has that? Because I want to add it to my army. I just got bolters, grenades, plasma, flamers, lasers. missiles and oddly machine guns in my Primaris army. I like them well enough, but it is really is just standard Imperial arms. What you describe sounds great. I must have missed it though.

Martel732 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the game needs fewer factions, but this is not the way I'd do it. I'd roll all marines into one book and squat the DW and GK for starters.

I have no idea why marines are so popular. They are quite boring, really.

That's a terrible idea, both Deathwatch and Grey Knights have a strong variation in flavour from regular marines. Granted, a solo codex for each could be changed as they don't need a plethora of units, that could be trimmed down but good luck facing the backlash after doing that.

Marines were OK until they made all the extra add on codexes (was not necessary), but still need to keep BA, DA and SW separate due to kits. You could I guess combine the latter 3 into one book I suppose, just as you could combine Grey Knights and Deathwatch.
Now, you could contain many of the factions into one book, but what does that achieve except for it being a much larger book?

The major problem is when you have spent so much time expanding the universe onto the tabletop, it's hard to go backwards without pissing off the villagers.
I'm on the fence with Harlequins (and I have a decent sized Harlie army), I love the concept, the miniatures, the rules (their masques, WTs, strats and relics are better than any of the other Aeldari forces) but they lack the units of a full force.

Why exactly is it a terrible idea? The game is saturated with power armor. Cut some if out. Start with the most Mary Sue.

Neither DW nor GK should have existed to being with, imo.

They SHOULD exist, just not the way that GW is doing them. Cut out the stuff we don't need (Deathwatch don't need Primaris outside maybe as an add on to regular squads, Grey Knights don't need a bunch of fliers, etc), combine them with Sisters and what we have of the Inquisition. It would still be a smaller codex than the main Marine one, and I already have ways to cut on that too.

I don't think they should exist. Marines are already shameless mary sues. Now we have the EVEN MOAR elite Mary Sues. Marines already are stupid rare.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think they should exist. Marines are already shameless mary sues. Now we have the EVER MOAR elite Mary Sues. Marines already are stupid rare.

Under the same logic, Scions shouldn't exist because they're just more Elite versions of Vets, which are more elite versions of Infantry, which are more elite versions of Conscripts.

No. Not at all. False equivalence. The base of infantry is far larger and far different in nature than mary sue spess mahreens. In fact, the guard is where this kind of stratification is appropriate. Marines already live eat and drink war. There's nowhere to go.

Martel732 wrote:
No. Not at all. False equivalence. The base of infantry is far larger and far different in nature than mary sue spess mahreens. In fact, the guard is where this kind of stratification is appropriate. Marines already live eat and drink war. There's nowhere to go.

It really isn't a false equivalence. Deathwatch are the equivalent of Scions for Marine elites and Imperial Guard Vets. You can argue against it all you want, you'd just be dumb to do so. Grey Knights were the fighting force of Malleus Inquisitors, and were specialized in what they do. Ergo, they make sense.
It doesn't mean GW handled them very well (that certainly doesn't happen often), but here we are. Cutting down on unneeded options, and consolidation of unit entries would help. Primaris just being add-ons for example to Killteams makes a lot of sense.

As a newly converted Harlequin player, I'm glad I don't have to fork out £25 for what will probably be a few pages of new rules, at best.

Only thing one desires of the faction is a proper heavy unit - something with decent range and punch. Maybe a Death Jester variant with a proper missile launcher.

SamusDrake wrote:
As a newly converted Harlequin player, I'm glad I don't have to fork out £25 for what will probably be a few pages of new rules, at best.

Only thing one desires of the faction is a proper heavy unit - something with decent range and punch. Maybe a Death Jester variant with a proper missile launcher.

I've said it once and I'll say it again - they've always described horrible, nightmarish constructs as well as Harlequins guarding the Black Library. If that's not a goldmine for a seriously F'ed up looking wraithbone clown monster, I don't know what is.

Gimme Gimme GW.