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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No. Not at all. False equivalence. The base of infantry is far larger and far different in nature than mary sue spess mahreens. In fact, the guard is where this kind of stratification is appropriate. Marines already live eat and drink war. There's nowhere to go.

It really isn't a false equivalence. Deathwatch are the equivalent of Scions for Marine elites and Imperial Guard Vets. You can argue against it all you want, you'd just be dumb to do so. Grey Knights were the fighting force of Malleus Inquisitors, and were specialized in what they do. Ergo, they make sense.
It doesn't mean GW handled them very well (that certainly doesn't happen often), but here we are. Cutting down on unneeded options, and consolidation of unit entries would help. Primaris just being add-ons for example to Killteams makes a lot of sense.

Then I'm dumb. Because I think DW and GK are beyond absurd and unnecessary factions. I don't care about the details, really. It's all about MOAR elite. Marines are already so insanely rare that they should be the rarest forces. And they are already so rare that they don't matter.

And it's absolutely a false equivalence given the numbers of marines that GW claims and the numbers of guardsmen.

Remind me Martel, why do you play Space Marines?

I own them. That's about it. The fluff circa 1994 interested me, but it has gotten progressively dumber and dumber.

Martel732 wrote:
I own them. That's about it. The fluff circa 1994 interested me, but it has gotten progressively dumber and dumber.

Oh yes, those pesky grey knights who were part of said fluff in 1994 and earlier.

I don't care if they were part of it. They shouldn't have been. They are a stupid concept. Well, stupider than normal for GW.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they were part of it. They shouldn't have been. They are a stupid concept. Well, stupider than normal for GW.

So you enjoyed the narrow bit of fluff you read in 1994, decided the rest was stupid and cursed the rest?

I suppose that's pretty accurate. GK are stupid, but as long as they didn't show up on the table, they didn't matter at least.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No. Not at all. False equivalence. The base of infantry is far larger and far different in nature than mary sue spess mahreens. In fact, the guard is where this kind of stratification is appropriate. Marines already live eat and drink war. There's nowhere to go.

It really isn't a false equivalence. Deathwatch are the equivalent of Scions for Marine elites and Imperial Guard Vets. You can argue against it all you want, you'd just be dumb to do so. Grey Knights were the fighting force of Malleus Inquisitors, and were specialized in what they do. Ergo, they make sense.
It doesn't mean GW handled them very well (that certainly doesn't happen often), but here we are. Cutting down on unneeded options, and consolidation of unit entries would help. Primaris just being add-ons for example to Killteams makes a lot of sense.

Then I'm dumb. Because I think DW and GK are beyond absurd and unnecessary factions. I don't care about the details, really. It's all about MOAR elite. Marines are already so insanely rare that they should be the rarest forces. And they are already so rare that they don't matter.

And it's absolutely a false equivalence given the numbers of marines that GW claims and the numbers of guardsmen.

It's about function and rank, not about numbers. Therefore it is not a false equivalence. Sorry but you lost. Plus as I already said, there's some easy streamlining that can be done. For example, Deathwatch Vanguard are their own unit that can take Inceptors as an add-on for example.

Martel732 wrote:


Then I'm dumb. Because I think DW and GK are beyond absurd and unnecessary factions. I don't care about the details, really. It's all about MOAR elite. Marines are already so insanely rare that they should be the rarest forces. And they are already so rare that they don't matter.

And it's absolutely a false equivalence given the numbers of marines that GW claims and the numbers of guardsmen.

Why and how do fictional numbers matter in that?

If GW retconned the 40K universe so that there're a Billion Grey Knights on each planet and only 100 Guardsmen exist in the entire galaxy, would that change anything?

Whether an army is "elite" in the entirely made up stuff in the front pages before the datasheets and stratagems and all that or whether they are the most numerous thing ever is completely irrelevant to both the game play and the logistics and logic of sales/business.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Remind me Martel, why do you play Space Marines?

sunk cost fallecy. martel's invested in a BA army already and can't justify investing in a new army he likes more,

Sunny Side Up wrote:
You cannot decide who or what gets a book or doesn't get a book by the stuff the lore-writers write in there. They are literally the bottom of the food chain.

If 7 out of 10 people play/buy Space Marines, 7 out of 10 Codexes ought to be Space Marines.

Squeezing 70% of your customers on one book while lavishing a vastly greater amount of books, shelf-space, writers-time, art-work development, etc.. on the other 30% doesn't make sense.


If lore wise this offends you, just re-jig your private 40k universe that everything with a book has equal military numbers in the 40K-universe, wether its Orks, Grey Knights, Astra Militarum or Iron Hands. Problem solved.

7 out of 10 people play space marines because GW pushes space marines down everyone's throats. Their entire marketing plan revolves around getting people who want to start out the hobby to get space marines. Want to get into the hobby and not sure where to start? Here are a million starter boxes that all feature space marines. New to the hobby? Don't worry these are all easy to build don't even need glue really just cut and snap. Want an easy to build/paint army? Here are a million videos showing you how to build/paint/convert space marines. Want an easy to play army? Here are some of the best and easiest to use rules in the game for space marines.

Now that 70% of your player base owns one faction if you want a quick cash grab release something for that faction. That is the reason space marines get so many releases. GW is not stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Remind me Martel, why do you play Space Marines?

Martel is angry and upset that the blood angels aren't an OP uber winning army but he's too invested to justify changing so he wants marines all squatted so he can justify changing his army.

........ the idea of just e-baying the damned thing seems to have escaped him.

Thats funny because Blood Angels are one of the best armies right now lol.

That's not why I think they are dumb. Winning has become almost irrelevant now. I think I'd rather lose every game than ever execute a tripoint ever again.

I've considered trashing them before. Ebay is too good for them. 80% of my stuff is from 5th. 6 preds, 6 razors, etc. All trash now.

"GW is not stupid."

Well, they are. Just not in this way.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not why I think they are dumb. Winning has become almost irrelevant now. I think I'd rather lose every game than ever execute a tripoint ever again.

I've considered trashing them before. Ebay is too good for them.

"GW is not stupid."

Well, they are. Just not in this way.

yeah god forbid making money and giving someone who likes the army a way to get more mini's. Martel. it's become clearer and clearer to me that you just don't like 40k anymore, why not find a game that appeals to you? instead of bitching whining and moaning about a game you clearly dislike.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not why I think they are dumb. Winning has become almost irrelevant now. I think I'd rather lose every game than ever execute a tripoint ever again.

I've considered trashing them before. Ebay is too good for them. 80% of my stuff is from 5th. 6 preds, 6 razors, etc. All trash now.

"GW is not stupid."

Well, they are. Just not in this way.

So because you hate the current state of 40k, nobody else should ever be remotely happy with the things they like?

That makes a whole lot of sense.

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not why I think they are dumb. Winning has become almost irrelevant now. I think I'd rather lose every game than ever execute a tripoint ever again.

I've considered trashing them before. Ebay is too good for them. 80% of my stuff is from 5th. 6 preds, 6 razors, etc. All trash now.

"GW is not stupid."

Well, they are. Just not in this way.

So because you hate the current state of 40k, nobody else should ever be remotely happy with the things they like?

That makes a whole lot of sense.

I mean, to be fair, there's so much that needs to be fixed that just accepting the game as is would be pretty lame.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I mean, to be fair, there's so much that needs to be fixed that just accepting the game as is would be pretty lame.

Everyone has bones to pick with the ruleset. There's a massive difference between enjoying the overall experience of playing the game despite those bones, and hating it so much that you try to deny the enjoyment others derive from 40k (while somehow still claiming to be an active player).

Narrative should have fully fleshed out armies as we have now. For matched play and competitive, sure, consolidate the heck out of all the books, less book keeping to do.

As much as marines need to be on the chopping block, I have a whole list of others that could go too.

Cut GSC, give them a few units in a nids book. Roll all Aeldari into one. Cut Tau. Cut admech. Cut Necrons. Cut Knights and Custodes. Chaos all in one book, fewer options. How we doing Martel, Slayer? Getting close to what you want?

Marines, chaos, Orks. Nids, Aeldari....done!

Good faith arguments abound. The game could use consolidation. That doesn't mean axing entire lines. Making paint colors equal free rules buffs has created an impossible mess to balance.

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not why I think they are dumb. Winning has become almost irrelevant now. I think I'd rather lose every game than ever execute a tripoint ever again.

I've considered trashing them before. Ebay is too good for them. 80% of my stuff is from 5th. 6 preds, 6 razors, etc. All trash now.

"GW is not stupid."

Well, they are. Just not in this way.

So because you hate the current state of 40k, nobody else should ever be remotely happy with the things they like?

That makes a whole lot of sense.

I never said that. Not even close. I said I'd rather lose games than tripoint.

Martel732 wrote:


I never said that. Not even close. I said I'd rather lose games than tripoint.

I'm going to direct you to the last three pages where because you dont like particular armies you've gone on a crusade to get them deleted.

Stop lying.

Oh, yes that. Yes, I think some armies need the axe. GW didn't seem to care too much about that argument with Bretonnians, now did they? And they made more sense than GK or DW.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, yes that. Yes, I think some armies need the axe. GW didn't seem to care too much about that argument with Bretonnians, now did they? And they made more sense than GK or DW.

And you're right back to telling people they're not allowed to have fun. Well done.

They can have fun. Just not with GK or DW. Ideally.

Martel732 wrote:
They can have fun. Just not with GK or DW. Ideally.

"If I cant have fun, then no one can". That's basically what you're saying. If their inclusion is so offensive to you......dont waste time/energy/thought on them.

Hell, I hate the Tau but I'm not advocating their deletion.

Get off of you high horse and just understand that not everyone has the same motivations/desires as you do. Go piss in your own cornflakes instead of others.

It's not like GW actually going to do this. It's just what I would do.

I'm not having fun because of the rules. These factions are just additional aggravation. I'm so sick of power armor across the table. Especially MOAR ELITE THAN SPESS MAHREEENS mary sue power armor.

Dudeface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they were part of it. They shouldn't have been. They are a stupid concept. Well, stupider than normal for GW.

So you enjoyed the narrow bit of fluff you read in 1994, decided the rest was stupid and cursed the rest?

You'd be surprised how many people have done exactly that. Or maybe not. It's a pretty common occurrence though.

BrianDavion wrote: Martel. it's become clearer and clearer to me that you just don't like 40k anymore, why not find a game that appeals to you? instead of bitching whining and moaning about a game you clearly dislike.

Well, that would be the sensible thing.

Quitting a game you don't like isn't some kind of failure or mark of shame or anything. It's good for one's mental health, to remove stress and strain. Plus, as well as potentially giving a little bit of cash back, you now have more free space and time that you can spend on literally anything else.

That's meant as no insult or jab. Just a suggestion.

Martel732 wrote:They can have fun. Just not with GK or DW. Ideally.

What a sociopathic take.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not like GW actually going to do this. It's just what I would do.

I'm not having fun because of the rules. These factions are just additional aggravation. I'm so sick of power armor across the table.

You mean any power armour that isn't yours?

If people like those power armoured factions, that's none of your business. Getting rid of some won't change that people like power armour. You'll just drive those people to playing other kinds of power armour.

Eh, DW and Harlequins will get an update eventually. It does certainly suck for DW and Harly players, though, and I don't blame their annoyance.

"If people like those power armoured factions, that's none of your business."

It kind of is, because I'm the one those ludicrous factions are inflicted upon.

Selling now would be a terrible idea. After quarantine, maybe. I feel bad selling people garbage units though. My 5th ed stuff should really just be trashed.

As for my power armor, i've advocated that gw should have had nids eliminate ba as a faction.

Martel732 wrote:
"If people like those power armoured factions, that's none of your business."

It kind of is, because I'm the one those ludicrous factions are inflicted upon.

Boo hoo? What, you're going to dictate what factions other people should play?
By all means, decline games against factions you don't like, that is your right - but if your reasoning is "I hate power armour even though I collect a power armoured faction other people should play what I demand them to", let's just say I'd be glad I wasn't playing you.

I feel bad selling people garbage units though.

If they're happy to buy it, that's not really a problem. Many people are happy to buy units/factions that might not be competitive. If I was still collecting pre-Primaris units, price depending, I'd be interested.

My 5th ed stuff should really just be trashed.

Easier than just donating it away for free? If you insist.

Who the feth is gonna use a razorback now? Seriously.

I dont demand anything. I will however call a faction stupid as feth. The gw store guy loves it when i do that.

At any rate, i hope harlequins dont get marginalized like dw deserves to.