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Though his legion is feted as Undivided and he's shown no particular leaning to any one of the gods, I have read in a few places that Be'lakor and Lorgar are the only true Undivided princes. Despite being far more intellectual and subtle than Angron, if the previously two mentioned characters are the only Undivided princes, then it strikes me that Khorne is the god closest to Perturabo in terms of temperament and war-making. Perturabo is a rage and bitterness-filled warlord whose tactics often involve blunt and relentless attacks (after much intelligence gathering) that are similar to how those used by many Khornate fighters, and the goal of IW campaigns is often brutal extermination in contrast to the long term corruption that many other forces seek out. There are shades of the other gods in Perturabo and the IW, and the legion does make use of sorcerers and the abilities of other gods. But like the Crimson Slaughter who is technically Undivided but whose style of warfare overwhelmingly makes use of Khornate tactics, Perturabo and the Iron Warriors might not be as doctrinaire as the groups like the World Eaters and the Brazen Beasts but who also favor straight-forward attacks and mass slaughter. Angron might be the axe-wielding juggernaut who kills anything within range, but Perturabo might represent a more intellectual approach to Khornate warfare, analyzing every single aspect and probability of a battle in the exacting and mathematical way that only Perturabo can so as to maximize the success of a campaign and the amount of blood that is spilled. What do you think?

I've never head of Perturabo having any allegiance to Khorne, and the Iron Warriors in general are generally staunchly undivided, with only a few "lost" and generally expendable brothers devoted to Khorne.

Mostly he's largely just left unmentioned and undefined. It's an interesting idea, but for the most part I think GW has been content to mostly just leave him as a background option.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've never head of Perturabo having any allegiance to Khorne, and the Iron Warriors in general are generally staunchly undivided, with only a few "lost" and generally expendable brothers devoted to Khorne.

Mostly he's largely just left unmentioned and undefined. It's an interesting idea, but for the most part I think GW has been content to mostly just leave him as a background option.

That's true, it's never been mentioned. I was thinking of it being more subtle than Angron and something known only to Perturabo after his ascension, and Khorne himself.

I've seen it speculated elsewhere in Dakka that Peturabo is a DP of Nurgle, given his previous collaboration in producing the technovirus, which would work on the game table as well with those FNPs working just as well for cybernetics. Same thread put Lorgar as most likely a DP of Slaanesh based on their contact in the Eye of Terror.

I personally like the idea of undivided princes, I think their patrons might just be another powerful daemon or a spur-of-the-moment collaboration between two or more chaos gods. I'm less interested in the vision of chaos gods as concrete entities and more like a congealed suite of characteristics represented by their followers. Which leaves exciting room for interpretation - the beef between the Purge and Death Guard on Vigilus is a great example. So by your description I think Peturabo does embody the more martial aspects of combat that we can associate with Khorne.

I think the background on him is sufficiently non-dense that there is room for really fun discussion and interpretation. My personal preference is that Lorgar and Peturabo are both undivided daemon princes that were powered up by specific gifts from specific gods and daemons through time that eventually turned them into daemons princes through their own force of will, giving themselves slightly more autonomy than say Magnus or Mortarion.

I absolutely hate that GW took away the options for having Undivided Princes

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Though his legion is feted as Undivided and he's shown no particular leaning to any one of the gods, I have read in a few places that Be'lakor and Lorgar are the only true Undivided princes. Despite being far more intellectual and subtle than Angron, if the previously two mentioned characters are the only Undivided princes, then it strikes me that Khorne is the god closest to Perturabo in terms of temperament and war-making. Perturabo is a rage and bitterness-filled warlord whose tactics often involve blunt and relentless attacks (after much intelligence gathering) that are similar to how those used by many Khornate fighters, and the goal of IW campaigns is often brutal extermination in contrast to the long term corruption that many other forces seek out. There are shades of the other gods in Perturabo and the IW, and the legion does make use of sorcerers and the abilities of other gods. But like the Crimson Slaughter who is technically Undivided but whose style of warfare overwhelmingly makes use of Khornate tactics, Perturabo and the Iron Warriors might not be as doctrinaire as the groups like the World Eaters and the Brazen Beasts but who also favor straight-forward attacks and mass slaughter. Angron might be the axe-wielding juggernaut who kills anything within range, but Perturabo might represent a more intellectual approach to Khornate warfare, analyzing every single aspect and probability of a battle in the exacting and mathematical way that only Perturabo can so as to maximize the success of a campaign and the amount of blood that is spilled. What do you think?

Originally (Slaves to Darkness) more of the legions were aligned with various chaos gods (Night Lords were explicitly Khorne, with his skull run on their banner and shoulder pads (which were red with black bats, mostly) and the original Alpha Legion symbol was similar to Slaanesh's rune. But that was quickly discarded. The legions and their primarchs have been rigidly undivided except for the obvious 4. That's survived despite GW trying to completely kill of the idea of Undivided otherwise (mostly, I think for IP/copywrite purposes).

Just finished Angel Exterminatus and in that book several characters are tempted by various Chaos powers, notably Khorne bloodlust and Slaanesh sensation seeking, but eventually resist.

I could also see Tzentch playing up to the IW paranoia and suspicions, and Nurgle for their dour resiliency.

Perturabo is one of those "Chaos as a tool" Primarchs.

I hope we get more on the Obliterator Virus.

I remain extremely interested in seeing any IW/Petty/Obliterator Cult fluff turn up. I always really liked oblits yet they have never been expanded on fluff-wise afaik.

There was an Obliterator in one of the Vigilus short stories, Dark Uprising.

Vorak Nar lumbered at the Warpsmith’s side, but gave no answer beyond a guttural rumble. The Obliterator never did. It was one of the reasons that Haxul prized its company, aside from the terrible carnage it unleashed upon his foes. Acidic drool spilled from the massive arcano-cyborg’s grilled mouth, hissing as it dripped down the monster’s hulking fleshmetal exoskeleton.
----
Vorak Nar’s wordless growls became louder and more insistent, as its sunken eyes stared out across the smoke-wreathed hall. The Obliterator’s torso peeled back with a sickening tearing sound, and a red-hot plasma cannon emerged, its fleshmetal surface wet with gory slime.
----
Vorak Nar ignored the pathetic mortals who swarmed around it, and raised its mecha-organic cannons to fire at the swirling mass of warp-stuff. Plasma fire and autocannon rounds lit up the chamber, shredding rockcrete walls and toppling gantries of rusted steel. But it was like shooting at water. The disembodied host swept down upon the Obliterator, encircling it in a whirlwind of roiling energy. Vorak Nar was smashed to the ground, landing with force enough to shake the entire hall. The Obliterator rocked and convulsed, still firing its weapons madly even as the incorporeal storm tore it apart.

‘No!’ roared Haxul, enraged at the loss of such a valuable asset.

Poor guy never even got a speaking role. I always liked that Honsou's companion in Dead Sky, Black Sun was a sane chaos dreadnought. I'd like to think that there are some sane obliterators out there, mainly because they were created by the Iron Warriors and so there must be some kind of way to control them.

There's nothing in the story to indicate they don't have intelligence or a way to communicate, just that they don't because they're too concerned with blowing stuff up.

I wouldn't mind seeing the mutilators go, though. Not only because I think the model is pretty goofy, but just that Obliterators should also be Mutilators. If you can make a lascannon, why can't you make a knife?

Surely to ascend to the position of demon prince requires a choas god to ascend you. So to be an undivided prince you need all the gods to play a role in your ascension. But they don’t like each other so how would the cooperate like that.

I’m not saying there aren’t undivided princes but I don’t understand how

Perturabo explicitly invoked Nurgle's power to create a plague on the forge world of Toil, and this was long after he became a DP. So, if GW really are holding to him not being Undivided, then he really has to be a Nurgle DP.

It also fits with his personality. Remember that Nurgle isn't just the god of disease. He's literally made out of fear, despair, bitterness and apathy, the antithesis of the hope, ambition and inquisitiveness represented by Tzeentch. Perturabo is someone who had all his Tzeentchian qualities repressed and crushed out of him, leaving him ripe for Nurgle's influence.

mrFickle wrote:
Surely to ascend to the position of demon prince requires a choas god to ascend you. So to be an undivided prince you need all the gods to play a role in your ascension. But they don’t like each other so how would the cooperate like that.

I’m not saying there aren’t undivided princes but I don’t understand how

Prior to undivided DPs being retconned out it was usually by doing some big impressive ritual/mass sacrifice/etc. There was also an example given around 3rd Ed of a ‘suicide pact’ daemon prince where a group of people would spend their whole lives living in a certain ritualised way before killing themselves simultaneously and merging into a single ‘daemon prince’ (technically a very minor Chaos God, but small enough to manifest as a single DP).

There were also daemon princes of Chaos gods other than the big 4, who were technically still devoted to a single god but were considered ‘undivided’ in rules terms.

Tbh though if anyone is an exception to the ‘no undivided DPs’ rule it would be the daemon primarchs. Frankly primarchs were pretty close to daemon princes even when mortal (in terms of inherent warp power, albeit in a fleshy rather than pure warpstuff body) so it probably didn’t need much to tip them over the edge so to speak.

Perturabo ascended due to the Iron Cage incident which was a pretty well designed sacrifice-by-combat of large parts of both his own and his greatest rival’s legions. IMO it’s not surprising the emotional and soul energy focused in it elevated him to full daemonhood even without an individual patron. Worth noting Peturabo directly witnessed Fulgrim drain life energy in a big ritual to ascend himself to daemonhood (albeit with a patron), given his character would make sense for Purturabo to have developed and improved that when designing the Iron Cage and ascending himself.

mrFickle wrote:
Surely to ascend to the position of demon prince requires a choas god to ascend you. So to be an undivided prince you need all the gods to play a role in your ascension. But they don’t like each other so how would the cooperate like that.

I’m not saying there aren’t undivided princes but I don’t understand how

Gods are not necessarily required, and anyway there are other gods out there in the warp, even if that were required. GW has just focused on the 4 for IP reasons. A character certainly wouldn't need all four to be granted the status of daemon prince- the game they play is far more complex than that with multiple layers, deals and treachery.

There are various rituals and events that various people have used to raise themselves up/down to the status of daemon prince.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Perturabo explicitly invoked Nurgle's power to create a plague on the forge world of Toil, and this was long after he became a DP. So, if GW really are holding to him not being Undivided, then he really has to be a Nurgle DP.

That's an oversimplification, or perhaps thinking of chaos in far-too-orderly a fashion. Invoking a god's power doesn't require being their sworn servant. Sometimes its an artifact, or a ritual, or just a trade of favors. Some times its a do this for me, and I'll do that for you sort of trade, sometimes its a betrayal, or a simple taking advantage of circumstances. Sometimes its even an accident. or a trap. There was a short story involving a khainite cult in the Old World that involved summoning bloodletters (through Blood Stones), and the RoC books had an inquisitor accidentally summon a daemon by idly tracing the pattern inlaid on his desk while he was distracted.

Remember the part of Lord of the Night when we meet the Night Lords daemon prince? He's totally covered in shadows, and has a piercing scream that makes mortals run in panic.

That's a perfect power for a Night Lord, right? It's a reminder that the Warp responds to the vagaries of your personality/soul. Passions and talents are pushed and prodded into dark and new directions.

But also in that example is a case study for, if we wanted too, how we could choose to interpret those powers after one or more of the chaos gods. Scream provoking dread and despair would make us thing of Nurgle, but the shadowy tactics suggest Tzeentch. The excess of sensation (terror) that you feel around him could be caused by Slaaneshi influence, but massacring your enemies as they flee around you is very Khornate.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but what I'm personally looking for from the warp is more of a twisted mirror. It was great when we had furies - actual chaos undivided daemons (weren't fleshhounds originally undivided also?). As Voss mentioned, there are other warp entities out there just as willing to make a deal.

It's not really Chaos Undivided as much as Chaos Unaligned, isn't it?

weren't fleshhounds originally undivided also?

Nope. They were Khorne from the get go.

There were undivided and generic warp entities, however.

Scream provoking dread and despair would make us thing of Nurgle

Eh... maybe fluffwise, sometimes? But mostly the screaming dread and despair angle falls under Slaanesh, especially when it comes to rules. Like the new PA book, which has Slaanesh daemons super focused again on breaking leadership, because its 'an experience' to savor or whatever.

Nurgle mostly ends up just being goopy.

Voss wrote:

weren't fleshhounds originally undivided also?

Scream provoking dread and despair would make us thing of Nurgle

Eh... maybe fluffwise, sometimes? But mostly the screaming dread and despair angle falls under Slaanesh, especially when it comes to rules. Like the new PA book, which has Slaanesh daemons super focused again on breaking leadership, because its 'an experience' to savor or whatever.

Nurgle mostly ends up just being goopy.

Fair enough! You get the point, though.

Voss wrote:That's an oversimplification, or perhaps thinking of chaos in far-too-orderly a fashion. Invoking a god's power doesn't require being their sworn servant.

No, you're doing that thing of reading what you want to read, not what I actually said. I did not claim Perturabo had to be sworn to Nurgle to invoke Nurgle. But assuming he is a daemon prince sworn to a single god, he cannot invoke the power of other gods. A daemon prince of Khorne cannot invoke Nurgle's power, because that would be like Khorne himself invoking Nurgle's power.

If we take the line that the ban on Undivided DPs is purely an IP protection / game balance thing and that Undivided or multi-patron DPs can still exist in the odd corners of the fluff, then Perturabo can be one of those. I'd actually prefer it if that was the case, as I don't like the formerly Undivided primarchs being shoe-horned into being sworn to specific gods.

But modern GW seems to want Chaos to be "far-too-orderly", I'm afraid. Insisting on Perturabo being an Undivided DP is technically just headcanon now. So, given that, which god is he most likely to have been raised to daemonhood by? Going by the official fluff, that has to be Nurgle.

Sometimes its an artifact, or a ritual, or just a trade of favors. Some times its a do this for me, and I'll do that for you sort of trade, sometimes its a betrayal, or a simple taking advantage of circumstances. Sometimes its even an accident. or a trap. There was a short story involving a khainite cult in the Old World that involved summoning bloodletters (through Blood Stones), and the RoC books had an inquisitor accidentally summon a daemon by idly tracing the pattern inlaid on his desk while he was distracted.

All of those examples involve mortals. Mortals can invoke any god. Daemons are different. Daemons are literally part of their patron. They can't invoke the power of other gods (unless they're Undivided daemons, but official fluff says Undivided DPs don't exist now).

Don Qui Hotep wrote:Remember the part of Lord of the Night

That book was written back when Undivided and multi-patron DPs still existed in the lore. Not really relevant to what exactly Perturabo is in current canon.

Voss wrote:Eh... maybe fluffwise, sometimes? But mostly the screaming dread and despair angle falls under Slaanesh, especially when it comes to rules. Like the new PA book, which has Slaanesh daemons super focused again on breaking leadership, because its 'an experience' to savor or whatever.

Feeling dread and despair feeds Nurgle, but taking sadistic pleasure in sowing dread and despair is a Slaanesh thing. This is (partly) why Nurgle and Slaanesh are not bitter enemies in the same way Nurgle/Tzeentch and Khorne/Slaanesh are. The emotions that feed them can coexist fairly easily.

Nurgle mostly ends up just being goopy.

Now who's oversimplifying?

Nurgle likes disease because it is a very efficient way to create despair and hoplessness in large numbers of people at once. Unlike a physical enemy, you can't run away or fight off a disease. A plague feels like a force of nature / act of god that you must simply endure, and it can seem endless - you can't know when, or if, it will burn out. Also, despair and fear themselves can spread like a disease. Chaos runs on such strange loops of analogy and metaphor.

If you remain hopeful and optimistic and search for a cure / vaccine, well that's Tzeentch 'protecting' you from Nurgle's despair.