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Can anybody think of an example of a "dreadnought" for a human? (I know...actual dreadnoughts are an Astartes thing, I'm meaning something equivalent). Crippled titan pilots can get fused to a titan like an astartes can get fused to a dreadnought, right?

Why is Ravenor confined to a hover chair? Couldn't someone of his status commission a "dreadnought" or some other type of cyborg body for himself? Couldn't he call in some favors from the mechanicus and get himself a new body?

I just can't figure why he doesn't upgrade from the floating coffin/chair. Is it just a narrative choice by the author?

Dreadnoughts pre-date Marines - they were used against the Thunder Warriors during Unification.

I suspect it's a narrative choice.

The first Dreadnoughts were allegedly created by an STC during the DAOT In response on how to keep a really valuable person alive after being mortally wounded/sick.

Since they now only have fragments of stc printouts and such to go from and exceptional Astartes are the only ones worthy, they are few and far between.

As for Ravenor, cuz reasons???

Imperial Technology has "gaps" in it.

It's why they are able to do some outstanding things on one hand, but incapable of doing more mundane things with the other. This is before you get to things like religious technological restrictions (ad mech hold a lot back); costs; rare materials; social status; what region of the Imperium you're in.

They also appear to have difficulty emulating or adjusting or reconnecting the nervous system. Though at the same time they can reattach limbs with full nerve control and even clone whole bodies if they wish - or just required parts (though this seems to be far more complex/expensive than bionic and mechanical parts).

This would likely account for Ravenor - his body suffered extreme burns and damage and likely destroyed much of his nervous system for body control. So even though the Imperium could, in theory, make a fully mechanical body; it might be that with his actual nerves damaged beyond repair; he'd have no means to control such a form. Similarly they might lack the ability to transplant the mind into a new body - or at least do so without reducing him to the status of a servitor

We also can't overlook that sacrificing flesh for machine is a big deal in a setting where souls and such are not just theological debate topics but proven scientific facts. It might be that he's retaining his "humanity" by remaining within his damaged living body



In the end the Imperium operates with basic logic, but a degree of illogical elements at the grander scale of things.

Hooking a healthy human up to a walker seems fairly mundane - see penitent engines and mortifiers.

Perhaps there is a stigma attached to it, or as Overread suggests perhaps Ravenor is no longer suitable for that style of interface due to injuries.

Well, Ravenor aside, most humans just aren't valuable enough to bother.

Keep in mind part of the point of Dreadnoughts for marines is to preserve the marine and his knowledge and experience. Normal humans just aren't worth that much.

Another thought is the "fail rate". It might well be that hooking up comes with a high degree of potential failure to adapt. That the mind will reel and reject all the augmentation, especially in one big go. To the point where the person could end up in a coma or, if able to function, utterly insane.

It's one thing to swap an arm and a leg here and there like the Ad Mech appear to do - but a full body change is quite another matter.


That said the fact that the Ad Mech do it all the time suggests that perhaps they are simply holding back some key elements in technology and resources that allows them to do this, whilst denying such easy adaptation to the rest of the Imperium.

It's also important to remember that Dreadnoughts tend to be asleep for the vast majority of the time because extended periods of time awake in the sarcophagus drives the interred insane(which is why Hellbrutes are the way they are, they tend to be interred and kept awake as punishment instead of putting injured Chaos Marines in). So, if the Inquisition actually wants Ravenor up and actively doing his job, the chair is a safer route.

I think for Ravenor's part too, an important component of his character is that by being completely unburdened by the physical requirements of a body, he was able to unlock his full psychic potential. If I recall correctly he was interred in his chair a little bit after the explosion at the Gate as a stop-gap measure to keep him alive, so they didn't actually have a whole lot of time to design extra perks like legs, arms, coffee holders, etc. (I assume his psy-cannons were added later). I'm thinking that it would not only be possible to remove him from the chair without killing him (based mostly on the description from Ravenor Rogue), and further the very limitations of his chair allowed him to develop his incredible psychic potential.

The technology is basically the same as that used in servitor gun drones.

When you see a servitor hardwired into a system, it's keeping them alive so there is going to be overlap in technology.

The imperium has the tech and doesn't need augmented humans to make it work.

So I am going to say that it's a cultural or religious thing that marines use dreadnoughts, they're considered a sacred tech for the angels of death.

jbuck wrote:Can anybody think of an example of a "dreadnought" for a human? (I know...actual dreadnoughts are an Astartes thing, I'm meaning something equivalent).

Back in the Rogue Trader era, there was less distinction, even Imperial Guard units could take dreadnoughts, although non-crippled pilot driven 'Imperial Battle Armour' was the term used.
From 2nd ed onwards, Dreadnoughts became as we know them now, limited to Marines, along with Land Raiders, and Rhino tanks.

Overread wrote:This would likely account for Ravenor - his body suffered extreme burns and damage and likely destroyed much of his nervous system for body control. So even though the Imperium could, in theory, make a fully mechanical body; it might be that with his actual nerves damaged beyond repair; he'd have no means to control such a form. Similarly they might lack the ability to transplant the mind into a new body - or at least do so without reducing him to the status of a servitor

This makes most sense, the technology is generally described as working by "mind impulse", rather than "psychic power", such that it connects directly to the nervous system and/or brain.
I'd have assumed his chair is operated by his mind, either because it has some component that recieves telepathic instruction or he uses telekinesis to push buttons and pull levers.
Most of the chair would be given over to life support systems, so it's like a floating sealed box containing some beef jerky and a brain.

Now, that said, there are plenty of Mechanicus high ups that are not much more than a brain in a jar with a fully, or near fully, mechanical body...and I'd be willing to bet they don't have a nervous system any more, just a brain stem.

Yeah...the "brain in a jar" cyborg is certainly a thing the mechanicus can do. I'm leaning more towards "narrative choice" here...or at least character choice, as in Ravenor doesn't want to be a "brain in a jar" or have his chair turned into a dreadnought coffin (though I would think a dreadnought body he could slide his chair into when gak gets real would be pretty cool).

Another thought...Does the mechanicus have psykers? Do they all get shipped to the black ships? Can a pskyer "brain in a jar" keep their powers?

Only tangentially related, but I'd swear the Dreadnought concept in 40k came from Robocop2.

The really old chaos dreadnoughts were a very strong likness of the attack walker from robocop1. Then again the same design also appears in one of the Age of Empires 1 cheats, though the design is fairly neutral even battletech has at least one mech along similar lines

Oh and in starcrtf1 one of the multiclick phrases for the protoss dragoon (eldar in a box) is the drop weapon sequence and count down.

 Overread wrote:
The really old chaos dreadnoughts were a very strong likness of the attack walker from robocop1.

"attack walker".... ED-209!

There were also similar looking mech units in a game called Kryomek, and obviously a few Battletech mechs have a similar theme.

Being interned in a dred was a reward for great warriors that were slain but not dead. I think there is something in the idea that it takes the physiology of a marine to take being turned into a dred. Also dreds are put into stasis in between combat and there are no new Dreds as the tech is lost. Unless this is retconned.

This is why primaris dreds are now like Walker suits from alien rather than the walking wounded.

It’s a shame because the original idea was pretty dark and cool and I think they should have left them and not replaced them with primaris. It’s a good way to keep the link to the past

New Dreads very much exist(Redemptor is a fully Interred wounded Primaris), just that some Chapters "forgot" how to make them. Iron Hands & Sons of Medusa both have specific fluff on how they make new dreads all the time(it is also why their successors also tend to have tons of dreads).

The above is also why "Wisdom of the Ancients" was a Chapter Trait for "Make your own chapter" rules in 5th edition(very similar to what we have now, but some more variable control).

Anchorites are kind of like Dreadnoughts for normal people.

Except in the way they aren't.

A.T. wrote:
Hooking a healthy human up to a walker seems fairly mundane - see penitent engines and mortifiers.

Perhaps there is a stigma attached to it, or as Overread suggests perhaps Ravenor is no longer suitable for that style of interface due to injuries.

That's exactly what they did during the Rogue Trader era of 40k. Both Space Marines and Guardsmen were hard jacked into dreads. And they didn't have to be physically mangled or shot all to hell to receive that "honor". In fact, Rogue Trader dreadnoughts were a bit more grimdark than the later incarnations insofar as the operator was permanently bound to a particular dreadnought. There was none of this modular sarcophagus that could be stuffed in a new dread if the old one was destroyed. The pilot was curled up into a fetal position in the torso area, and controlled their mounts by brainwaves via implanted cables. A wasted dread usually meant a wasted pilot.


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Racerguy180 wrote:
The first Dreadnoughts were allegedly created by an STC during the DAOT In response on how to keep a really valuable person alive after being mortally wounded/sick.

Since they now only have fragments of stc printouts and such to go from and exceptional Astartes are the only ones worthy, they are few and far between.

As for Ravenor, cuz reasons???

The technology had its roots in the science of the Golden Age. But the dreadnought as we know it was a product of the Age of Strife. Both Mars and the "techno-barbarian nations of Old Earth had dreadnought-like machines in use. The most famous being the steam powered "proto-dreadnoughts" used by Albia in their resistance against the Emperor and his armies.

jbuck wrote:
Can anybody think of an example of a "dreadnought" for a human? (I know...actual dreadnoughts are an Astartes thing, I'm meaning something equivalent). Crippled titan pilots can get fused to a titan like an astartes can get fused to a dreadnought, right?

Why is Ravenor confined to a hover chair? Couldn't someone of his status commission a "dreadnought" or some other type of cyborg body for himself? Couldn't he call in some favors from the mechanicus and get himself a new body?

I just can't figure why he doesn't upgrade from the floating coffin/chair. Is it just a narrative choice by the author?

I remember there being a story about an Inquisitor securing a ruined Dreadnought from the battlefield for himself instead of returning it to the chapter in order to continue living, I don't remember if that was Inquisition War or Eisenhorn or something else, but it's been done.

I think the big issue with regards to Dreadnoughts however is that they spend most of the time asleep doing nothing, and it takes a lot of effort and time to wake them up sufficiently that they can think coherently. If that's a limitation of the technology, then for the purposes of most Inquisitors, especially someone like Ravenor, if they want to actually go out and actively do stuff, instead of just simply survive longer, that presents a problem.

Beyond that however, I got nothin', I'd say it's pretty much entirely a narrative choice thing.

There probably isn't any particular reason Ravenor couldn't have had his chair be given legs and arms. I suspect its more of a deliberate choice at this point because it allowed his psychic potential to be unleashed.

jbuck wrote:

Another thought...Does the mechanicus have psykers? Do they all get shipped to the black ships? Can a pskyer "brain in a jar" keep their powers?

Given the amount of psychic technology that needs to exist in the Imperium, which consequently needs mechanicus interaction to create and maintain, I would say yes. The mechanicus are the ones who create the interfaces for navigators, the tools used by psykers everywhere, etc... So they must have some psychic individuals who aid in the manufacture and development process.

If a person became a brain in a jar they most definitely would keep their powers, but they might find it different from when they had a physical body.

The mechanicus's overall philosophy is somewhat contradictory to Psychic powers though. They are all about becoming one with the machine, a very physical and tied to the material plane idea. Psykers are about what exists beyond reality. So merging the two is difficult.

There’s also the matter of unevenly distributed technologies.

Space Marines get a bye here, simply because of their Tech Marines. They receive standardised training on Mars. In turn, anything Mars can produce, theoretically can a Space Marine Chapter (and much of it is maintained rather than made).

Elsewhere in the Imperium? Well, who knows? Your local Forgeworld simply may not know how to produce Dreadnought or equivalent, as they specialise elsewhere (Ryza being noted for Plasma technology, for instance)

Mind Impulse Units seem relatively common place due to Bionics. But, to train someone to control a Titan, Dreadnought or full body prosthesis is the difficulty. Replace a limb or two, and not too tricky to master. It’s about as direct a replacement as you might hope for. Anymore and the brain simply won’t be used to it.