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Im not really a fan boy of either, and my understanding of the lore is pretty vague. I mean i get the lore, but I have only ever read the lore from Wiki pages, never really read any of the books.

What should a warmaster of Chaos be? someone strong, and someone affiliated with all 4 chaos gods.

Who could fit that role? Well Abbadon could and is doing that, but so could Lorgar.


If we look at Abbadon, he is affiliated with all 4 chaos gods, yet hes not even a Primarch, hes just a second in command to Horus who is dead. Hes just some random second in command who was elevated to daemonhood or something.

On the other hand, we have Lorgar who is also affiliated with all 4 chaos gods, yet unlike Abbadon, he is actually a Primarch.


Am i missing something here? Shouldnt Lorgar be able to kick Abbadons second in command ass? Since when have second in commands started to be stronger than their Primarch peers? And if Second in Commands are as strong as Primarchs, whats the whole point of creating primarchs then.

If its because the Chaos gifts Abbadon received were just super duper strong so he could Rival a Primarch who has also ascended to daemonhood, then whats the point of even recruiting Primarchs to the side of Chaos when even their lowly second in commands could fill that job and be equally powerful?

How the heck does Chaos powers even work then. By all means, a Primarch should be much more powerful than a second in command when both receives the gifts of Chaos. Wouldnt it just make a Primarch even MORE powerful if they actually gave their gifts to such a person rather than a second in command?


Wouldnt Lorgar be a much better choice for the role of Warmaster of Chaos?

And shouldnt both Mortarion and Magnus be able to whip Abbadons skinny ass?

Beardedragon wrote:
Im not really a fan boy of either, and my understanding of the lore is pretty vague. I mean i get the lore, but I have only ever read the lore from Wiki pages, never really read any of the books.

What should a warmaster of Chaos be? someone strong, and someone affiliated with all 4 chaos gods.

Who could fit that role? Well Abbadon could and is doing that, but so could Lorgar.


If we look at Abbadon, he is affiliated with all 4 chaos gods, yet hes not even a Primarch, hes just a second in command to Horus who is dead. Hes just some random second in command who was elevated to daemonhood or something.

On the other hand, we have Lorgar who is also affiliated with all 4 chaos gods, yet unlike Abbadon, he is actually a Primarch.


Am i missing something here? Shouldnt Lorgar be able to kick Abbadons second in command ass? Since when have second in commands started to be stronger than their Primarch peers? And if Second in Commands are as strong as Primarchs, whats the whole point of creating primarchs then.

If its because the Chaos gifts Abbadon received were just super duper strong so he could Rival a Primarch who has also ascended to daemonhood, then whats the point of even recruiting Primarchs to the side of Chaos when even their lowly second in commands could fill that job and be equally powerful?

How the heck does Chaos powers even work then. By all means, a Primarch should be much more powerful than a second in command when both receives the gifts of Chaos. Wouldnt it just make a Primarch even MORE powerful if they actually gave their gifts to such a person rather than a second in command?


Wouldnt Lorgar be a much better choice for the role of Warmaster of Chaos?

And shouldnt both Mortarion and Magnus be able to whip Abbadons skinny ass?

Abaddon isn't a Daemon, which is why he is Warmaster and Lorgar isn't.

Lorgar, like all of the traitor Primarchs as far as we know, is a Daemon Prince and likely and incredibly powerful one. It takes a great deal of work to keep him in the Materium.

Let's look at Angron during the first war of Armageddon. Angron's conquest of the planet was constantly slowed because he needed to have his forces erect massive monuments of Khorne and commit constant blood sacrifices to maintain his form in the Imperium.

Abaddon is glutted on the power of Chaos yes, but he is still "mortal", and for him existing in the materium is as easy as flying out of the Eye of Terror.

Furthermore, although the Daemon Primarchs are all more powerful than Abaddon personally, Abaddon has far more drive to actually go out and do the conquering. The Daemon Primarchs are comparatively lazy and unmotivated, and frankly largely lacking in charisma to have cross-god appeal the way Abaddon does. And ultimately, no matter how powerful the Daemon Primarchs are, they can't wage a war without soldiers to fight in it. Abaddon has amassed by far the largest military force.

As for Lorgar, he could be Warmaster, but he has no particular desire to and knows that Chaos has chosen Abaddon as their champion and as a true believer completely supports him.

Let’s also look at who Lorgar was.

Despite being a Primarch, he was at best a reluctant warrior.

Opening Lines of the Book of Lorgar wrote: "All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."

That is suggestive of some kind of guilt over the whole thing. Not for doing it, but for the lives lost.

He’s committed to Chaos - but not necessarily to destroying The Imperium. So he’s not a great fit for Warmaster.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That is suggestive of some kind of guilt over the whole thing. Not for doing it, but for the lives lost.

Or it's suggestive of him being a whiny, treacherous, cowardly, self-justifying hypocrite.

Lorgar can't be Warmaster because everybody outside his own legion despises him for being a whiny, treacherous, cowardly, self-justifying hypocrite.

Abaddon's creed of pursuing your own objectives (mostly 'wreaking bloody vengeance on Dad's rotting empire') while using the powers of Chaos as tools is more attractive to most CSMs than Lorgar's creed of abasing yourself as a slave to a bunch of 'gods' whose idea of a divine reward is turning your arm into an eel.

Huh. i actually thought that Abbadon was also gifted with Chaos Powers like the Primarchs.

So basically the Primarchs can kick his ass yet hes still the warmaster simply because he can more easily walk between the normal world and the daemonworld?

You asume they grow out of a vacume, or has some form of democrasy desiding who is the best leader.

As far as I know it goes something like this. Horus has the title Warmaster. He turns to fight for chaos. After he dies Abbadon was next in line, wich is to say he probably was high in the hiarchy and was well possition to take the possition after it was emty. It also helps that he is well equiped for the jobb in form of social status and skill. One could argue he has done a good job being the warmaster.

Also, who would overthrow him, how, and why?

 Niiai wrote:
You asume they grow out of a vacume, or has some form of democrasy desiding who is the best leader.

As far as I know it goes something like this. Horus has the title Warmaster. He turns to fight for chaos. After he dies Abbadon was next in line, wich is to say he probably was high in the hiarchy and was well possition to take the possition after it was emty. It also helps that he is well equiped for the jobb in form of social status and skill. One could argue he has done a good job being the warmaster.

Also, who would overthrow him, how, and why?

I think we just established that both Lorgar, Mortarion and Magnus has more actual power than Abbadon has.

If any of those wanna be warmaster all they have to do is smash his butt.

So no i dont expect a democracy, but its more akin to the orks. the biggest and strongest can take the position. thats the way i see it, but thats also why it made no sense to me why abbadon was warmaster given hes clearly not the strongest.

Abbadon obviously has more political power than any of the Primarchs.

It's not just raw power. During the Legion Wars, Abbadon basically built the Black Legion out of the shattered carcass of the Sons Of Horus and a few others by sheer force of will.

The black legion are the biggest single heretic astartes force and they're at least as personally loyal to him as any 'original' legion to their primarchs.

The daemon primarchs are limited in their ability to affect the real world, but also their ability to command loyalty - any daemon primarch sworn to one of the gods would instantly alienate 3/4 of the cult forces.

Of the five theoretically 'neutral' primarchs, Horus Lupercal, Alpharius, and Konrad Curze are dead, whilst Perturaboand Lorgar Aurellian are isolationists who barely give their own legions the time of day - Perturabo is a short-tempered bitter paranoiac whilst Lorgar is too busy writing book after book of chaos lore in his sanctum on Sicarius to bother with anything as ephemeral as 'mortal war'.

I think another part of the reason that Lorgar isn't war master is the rivalry between the primarchs and their legions. It's not good enough that Lorgar is undivided. He's still associated with the Word Bearers, and he's a primarch. Which of the other primarchs is going to say "Sure, fellow primarch, I'll follow you and let you tell me what to do"?

That's a problem that Abaddon doesn't have to deal with.

 solkan wrote:
I think another part of the reason that Lorgar isn't war master is the rivalry between the primarchs and their legions. It's not good enough that Lorgar is undivided. He's still associated with the Word Bearers, and he's a primarch. Which of the other primarchs is going to say "Sure, fellow primarch, I'll follow you and let you tell me what to do"?

That's a problem that Abaddon doesn't have to deal with.

no but with abbadon they have to say:
Sure little second in command i could crush with a single hand, ill follow you and let you tell me what to do".

How does that sound better

Beardedragon wrote:

 solkan wrote:
I think another part of the reason that Lorgar isn't war master is the rivalry between the primarchs and their legions. It's not good enough that Lorgar is undivided. He's still associated with the Word Bearers, and he's a primarch. Which of the other primarchs is going to say "Sure, fellow primarch, I'll follow you and let you tell me what to do"?

That's a problem that Abaddon doesn't have to deal with.

no but with abbadon they have to say:
Sure little second in command i could crush with a single hand, ill follow you and let you tell me what to do".

How does that sound better

It’s more Abaddon saying “hey Daemon Primarch, do you want to play in the materium? If you help me out with this task I’d like doing I’ll get the large amount of people personally loyal to me to summon you so you can come and play.”

It’s about diplomacy and charisma as much as pure power.

Abaddon is easily able to access the materium; has a lot of people personally loyal to him; doesn’t only worship 1 god (so is a compromise candidate); is actually good a diplomacy (unlike Perturabo, Angron and Mortarion); and has goals people buy into (unlike Lorgar and Magnus).

Therefore he’s the best all round candidate for warmaster - if one of the primarchs sqaushed him they’d likely be deserted by most of the armada.

cuz Lorgar is a bitch?

Horus is probably the one who was able to resist long enuff to gain their favour.

Lorgar was screwed from pretty much day 1 on Colchis.

One argument I've often heard as a theory is that the Chaos Gods and Demons don't actually want to "win". Instead they'd rather prolong the war and strife and feed off the emotions.

If they "win" and conquer all and chaos blights the whole galaxy then the feeding-ground is lost.


If we take that as given then it makes sense that Abbadon is the Warmaster because his goals are not the goals of the four Chaos Gods. Instead he has very different goals that might go against their desires. So the Warmaster has to be "outside" of the powerblock of one of the four gods. If he were a demonic prince then he'd be focused on that demons desires not his own; he'd likely be far more interested in prolonging a period of constant war and instability. Of keeping hte hate, fear, strife and terror going over and over.

Some deamon primarchs are pledged to specific chaos gods. Abby is basically neutral and thus doesn't favor any one god over the others. If a chaos leader affiliated with one god tried to take abby's place the other 3 gods and their forces would put the smackdown on him.

Lorgar would be too busy building churches to be an effective leader.

Perturabo is so uncharasmatic most people would not follow him.

The daemon primarchs all basically retreated to the Eye and 'retired' for an indefinite (but very long) period of time.

Abaddon spent all that time beating the remnants of his legion (and then other legions), into something resembling an actual fighting force again.

Primarchs like Mortarion basically have to be bullied into doing anything. Magnus is chasing his own tail. Angron doesn't have an attention span.

Actually acting against the Imperium requires drive and some semblance of cohesion. Thus, Abbaddon.

There's also the fact that most of the primarchs proved themselves very unreliable during the heresy. A human with the willpower to control them is probably a more useful tool.

Abaddon is the closest one to Horus, and like has been said before, his mortality allows him to work in realspace a lot more than the primarchs. There is no split loyalty to one or all of the gods, he is strictly focused on killing the Imperium, while Lorgar devotes the vast majority of his time to Chaos theology and rituals. His skills as a war leader and ability to merge the wildly differing fighting style of different CSM groups into a coherent fighting force is what makes him so dangerous, skills that the pie-in-the-sky Lorgar could never accomplish. The Word Bearers are very rigid in their ideology and generally don't play well with others (as seen with Lorgar's attempt to overthrow Horus), while Abaddon is open to nearly any interpretation of Chaos as long as it can help further his agenda

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Let’s also look at who Lorgar was.

Despite being a Primarch, he was at best a reluctant warrior.

Opening Lines of the Book of Lorgar wrote: "All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."

That is suggestive of some kind of guilt over the whole thing. Not for doing it, but for the lives lost.

He’s committed to Chaos - but not necessarily to destroying The Imperium. So he’s not a great fit for Warmaster.

To be fair, that was written before he became a daemon, a lot of things have changed since then,

Beardedragon wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
You asume they grow out of a vacume, or has some form of democrasy desiding who is the best leader.

As far as I know it goes something like this. Horus has the title Warmaster. He turns to fight for chaos. After he dies Abbadon was next in line, wich is to say he probably was high in the hiarchy and was well possition to take the possition after it was emty. It also helps that he is well equiped for the jobb in form of social status and skill. One could argue he has done a good job being the warmaster.

Also, who would overthrow him, how, and why?

I think we just established that both Lorgar, Mortarion and Magnus has more actual power than Abbadon has.

If any of those wanna be warmaster all they have to do is smash his butt.

So no i dont expect a democracy, but its more akin to the orks. the biggest and strongest can take the position. thats the way i see it, but thats also why it made no sense to me why abbadon was warmaster given hes clearly not the strongest.

This isn't quite accurate to the lore. After Horus was killed, the Sons of Horus splintered and became the most despised legion of all the traitors - because they were the ones who failed. Rather than capitalizing on the moment, Abaddon took The Vengeful Spirit into the Eye of Terror. The Sons of Horus set up a few strongholds in the Eye but eventually all are overrun, the last by those that hate them the most, the Emperor's Children. At this point, several millennia have past (more or less, time is elastic in the Eye of Terror) and no legions save the Death Guard (and maybe Iron Warriors) are really effectively held together. This is when Abaddon comes into his own - he creates the Black Legion not only out of the remains of the XVII but also out of all the misfits and miscreants. Add to that a whole bunch of recent renegades, human cultists/"liberated" convicts, daemons and such, and you have a very scary force to reckon with.

Over several millenia, Abaddon, who is very patient and very strong-willed, builds up his personal power through bargains with powerful daemons and each god individually, but rejects full daemonhood - because he has his own agenda, whereas daemon primarchs are ultimately slaves to the whims of the gods that elevated them.

So, that is why Abaddon is warmaster; it's historically contingent and the result of lots of hard work and struggle. It took time and effort to build his army. It was not always certain that he would be the one to unite them all, but he eventually did.

Also, as the resident Lorgar apologist, Lorgar was always the evangelist and diplomat, no the warrior. What he's best at is spreading the word of chaos throughout the Imperium, and so that's just what he does. Peturabo is more dedicated to forever expanding his daemon fortress, Angron is being angery, Mortarion likewise seldom leaves his plague planet and home base, and I'm not actually sure what Magnus is up to - but as others have said, daemon primarchs cannot exist outside of the warp for long enough to effectively command a campaign on the scale of a Black Crusade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further point; chaos is much more subtle and interesting than the orks. They are not mindless (well, most of them are not). They are (deeply flawed) mortals with agendas and needs who think that by tapping into the dark powers they can accomplish those agendas and meet those needs. Often these are military agendas and martial needs, and because 40k is a wargame we know much more about those aspects of Chaos. But Magnus and Lorgar are dedicated to the study of Warp and the lore of chaos. Peturabo and Mortarion want to fortify their little kingdoms. And Fulgrim's having a great time somewhere coked out of his mind.

The Daemon primarchs dedicated to single powers couldn't be warmaster of chaos because of their very nature. It would upset the equity of the great game (which we all know can never happen)

Which is a little off-topic, but a good question: Since the Chaos Gods are supposed to have learned their lesson with Be'Lakor, why did they decide to raise two primarchs as-far-as-we-know undivided daemonhood?

Where the Primarchs are essentially Greater Daemons in specially engineered mortal vessels, discarding the mortal vessel part means they weren't so much elevated as side-graded. Be'Lakor still has all that mortal ambition, but the Primarchs were never human.

Plus there's the whole thing where it takes a psychic force like that of the Emperor to annihilate them, so the souls of Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, and Konrad Curze are wandering around.

locarno24 wrote:
Which is a little off-topic, but a good question: Since the Chaos Gods are supposed to have learned their lesson with Be'Lakor, why did they decide to raise two primarchs as-far-as-we-know undivided daemonhood?

We don't know - however, the Be'lakor background elements came in after the two Primarchs being Undivided was a thing, so a retcon is required one way or another

There's a subplot within the HH/Siege novels that Perturabo is disdainful of the Warp's influence on his fellow Traitors. but is studying it with a view to mastering it. I suspect this will lead to him elevating himself to Daemonhood, or possibly just contracting the Obliterator virus and becoming an Obliterator Primarch.

With Lorgar, I would assume he elevates himself through ritual. He has already elevated Angron after all.

locarno24 wrote:
Which is a little off-topic, but a good question: Since the Chaos Gods are supposed to have learned their lesson with Be'Lakor, why did they decide to raise two primarchs as-far-as-we-know undivided daemonhood?

Sh*ts and gigs? Best I got is that turning more of the primarchs would be a bigger blow to the imperium, yet they know that neither of them are really capable of leading anything successfully despite being patrons of CU.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SideSwipe wrote:
There's a subplot within the HH/Siege novels that Perturabo is disdainful of the Warp's influence on his fellow Traitors. but is studying it with a view to mastering it. I suspect this will lead to him elevating himself to Daemonhood, or possibly just contracting the Obliterator virus and becoming an Obliterator Primarch.

With Lorgar, I would assume he elevates himself through ritual. He has already elevated Angron after all.

Oblit Perty is an awesome idea.. thats a retcon I'd be happy with.

We've never seen Perturabo's daemon form, but he's been described as being the ultimate obliterator, so maybe he could be both an obliterator and a daemon prince.

The best thing they can do with Perturabo is to make him not a Daemon at all. Not an Obliterator and certainly not a Daemon Prince.

Accordind to some sources in the EoT they were going to have a fight for supreme warmaster of the forces of chaos, but abbadon insisted they fight without arms.

When lorgar agreed to hand to hand combat abbadon clarified it meant with literally no arms on their bodies.

Lorgar balked and said it was impossible to fight when your are missing your arms, to which abbadon replied he'd been doing it for years in countless battles with all manner of enemies.

Lorgar conceded.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The best thing they can do with Perturabo is to make him not a Daemon at all. Not an Obliterator and certainly not a Daemon Prince.

He already is one. That moment passed long ago.

Abby has all four Chaos Gods backing him.

Lorgar serves all four Chaos gods.

This is a small, yet huge, difference.

Abby can look around, see a bunch of micreants, rebels, and renegade marines and go, "Hey, you wanna make the Imperium pay for what they did to you? I can get you trained, get you guns, and get you doing just that."

Lorgar looks around, says, "Don't you want to be mutated? Let a demon inside your body and take it over? Serve a power greater than yourself at the cost of your very soul? I can do that!"

It's easy to overlook that Abby has a *ton* of non-mutants behind him, just ordinary people, and marines, without Chaos corruption, willing to fight be his side.

Lorgar's people are cultists, in service of something else, not selfishness or petty revenge.

Abby tells you to sack a city and take whatever you want as your reward. You do a good job, you *derserve* it!

Lorgar tells you to sack a city and dedicate everything within to the gods of Chaos, who are far more important than you.

It's really not a contest at all.