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Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

Just an example of a cool model being made for the guarantee-sell faction and then needing a rules and minor lore avenue for release. Money money money. *rubs thumb and middle and pointer fingers together* That’s cash, baby!

Besides that, I enjoy the model (could use a cowl, otherwise I can make piece with the head). I can enjoy a non-vehicle/mode-of-transport addition to the Reclusiam. A Chaplain in training that must prove himself by silently leading by example, swinging and fighting in time with the beat of the litany.

 Apple Peel wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

Just an example of a cool model being made for the guarantee-sell faction and then needing a rules and minor lore avenue for release. Money money money. *rubs thumb and middle and pointer fingers together* That’s cash, baby!

Besides that, I enjoy the model (could use a cowl, otherwise I can make piece with the head). I can enjoy a non-vehicle/mode-of-transport addition to the Reclusiam. A Chaplain in training that must prove himself by silently leading by example, swinging and fighting in time with the beat of the litany.

I think that is kind of the issue with stuff like this, Space marines got a lot of new minis to sell with some More coming. But releaseing a single model for a lot of factions would be really awesome, and both promote new investment and reinvestment into the factions themselves.
Why not probably making as much money in the short term, it keeps players in the game itself and shows that they are not forgotten without having to invest into a lot of kits all at once for GW.

Don't get me wrong, I've accepted that because most people play Space Marines GW is always going to shower far more attention on them than any other faction. It is what it is.

The bigger issue is that doing that leads to things like the judiciar: Space Marines getting given something extremely powerful that used to be a unique feature of a very few other factions, simply because they needed something to tack on to a new model, and they'd already given Space Marines most of the other special rules already.

There is no balance justification for Space Marines getting ASL. It's simply about needing a powerful rule to slap onto a new model. And that's really bad for the game.

I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

He imposes it not suffers from it.

Games Workshop has never designed a faction or model with an idea of function over form. I guarantee you that when the judiciar was handed over to the rules team, the discussion on what rules he should get began and ended with "well what rules do space marines not already have?". And that was it. They have might have done a bare minimum of playtesting to make sure it didn't absolutely break the bank, but otherwise they just slapped some rules on the model and send it to the printers. This has always been the GW way.

 Eldarain wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

He imposes it not suffers from it.

Ah, glad to see I’m not that rules slowed. Lol

Thanks, Eldarain!

it's definatly a case of a cool model developed first.. that said from a design POV there's a few things at play here. First of all the Judicator fills a lore role of expanding the reclusium a little bit, which is kinda nice to have, as for the rules, GW's been trying to develop a "cool duelist" character for ages, the Judicator is just their latest kick at the can.

If that's what GW was trying to do, the judiciar is even worse, because its value is 100% in its ability to sit with a combat unit and make them unable to be charged. He's junk as a duelist, and his rules have nothing to do with being a duelist. You would never, ever want him to duel stuff individually, that would be a criminal waste of his rules.

I mean, they weren't even content to limit the ASL to things it's actually in combat with. You get to just point and slow from a cool 6" away.

I’m thinking they don’t understand how you can reliably get a character within 6” of a target enemy unit without haveing the character in with the unit in combat.

B.c they didn't have a fight first or fight last ability on a general unit and SM needs EVERY ABILITY on a general unit. B.c F everyone else and uniqueness.

40k has nothing unique anymore between armies, if you have it well SM gets it too.

They didnt, it's a horrid model and stupid execution.

If you want people to get excited about a box include all new models and/or make it cheap. Do both and you will sell out, do neither and sales will be poor. The economy of scale dictates higher profits with mass-production instead of producing 5 different boxes with the fifth the sales. Imagine GW adding a Whirlwind and a Terminator Captain to an Eradicator/whatever box, instant loss of profit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

From Some directions, yes, from most directions No.

They've tried to do Lieutenants a few times. If a Lieutenant is a Captain in Training, a Judiciar is a Chaplain in Training. So it works well with further developing the path of advancement/fluff/IP etc. LT is to Captain as Epistolary is to Librarian as Judiciar is to Chaplain (or Master of Sanctity etc they've had multiple attempts at two levels of Chaplain) - and I'm not that impressed with the rules. They're nice and all but - strictly on the rules - I think I prefer the Litanies over the Tempormortis, and the Cap and Lt bubbles over both. Especially the new Bladeguard equipped versions. Give up what 6 inches of range on the cap, gain a few AND another shot on the LT, now both have a 2+/4++ if I read the FAQ correctly. Even Old Marines don't have a Terminator Lieutenant and these two are basically Terminator Primaris Captain/LT without the Gravis/Terminator Transportation issue.

Edit to Add: I think the marketing part wasn't as much about the Judiciar so much as it was about the Assault Intercessors. Assault has lagged way behind shooting in the Primaris line, the options they've tried have all fallen flat, so give this box a shiny new toy to make the Assault Intercessors look like the Assault Squad we've been waiting for/wanting. But it's not going to happen this time either. Without the jump pack mobility, people are still going to be disappointed. They would have been better off retrofitting Reivers who take chutes and ladder hooks to count as Jump Packs - either shoot the hook at the ground and Newton's law propels you up, or you shoot the high overhead gantry/tree limb, and the chute glides you down etc.

I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

SM haven't needed anything for years.

I dislike the model and the rules. Feels to me that it does not belong to Space Marines and too "gamey" in design for lack of a better word.

I would like a Primaris Company Champion (on bike) without any additional rules much more. And I don't even need the model for it. Just allow it as an option and call one of the many Lieutenants a Company Champion model.

 Blackie wrote:
I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

They needed the Outriders especially if old marines are going away. Assault Marines got boned by the changes to Pistol+CCW, Charging, etc. in 8th. It was a while ago, but I did the math on Assault Marines (and thus OldMarine bikers) in CC vs shooty Intercessors and they lost 3 days later - Vanguard with power weapons of course would spank Intercessors. Even the Assault Intercessors were less necessary than the Outriders. We already had Reivers, with the same or better mobility, while the Outriders have very similar to Jump movement stats. That's where the Primaris line is lagging behind. They don't/didn't have an independently (not requiring a transport) fast moving CC unit. The benefit to the Judiciar isn't really the tempormortis, its the sword that works out just shy of a power fist. Especially if they're capped at 3, I agree they didn't need the Eradicators. Eliminators with Lasfusil, or MM Speeders/Attack Bikes, or less so the new ATV thing already had that niche.

It's marine. Gw needs it to get lots of profits.　so answer to op questioe: profit

It looks cool?

 Insectum7 wrote:
SM haven't needed anything for years.

What he said.


At this point, I don't know why GW even keeps up the pretence of faction identity. There exist Space Marine heroes, Chaos villains, and Xeno NPCs. That is all.

 vipoid wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
SM haven't needed anything for years.

What he said.


At this point, I don't know why GW even keeps up the pretence of faction identity. There exist Space Marine heroes, Chaos villains, and Xeno NPCs. That is all.

Youre right, they should just release a "xenos npc" book for single player and lump all xenos models together by base size with 1 profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's definatly a case of a cool model developed first.. that said from a design POV there's a few things at play here. First of all the Judicator fills a lore role of expanding the reclusium a little bit, which is kinda nice to have, as for the rules, GW's been trying to develop a "cool duelist" character for ages, the Judicator is just their latest kick at the can.

This seems most likely.

Tbf i don't know why everyone keeps harping on him beeing cool...
The Face Mask Looks Bad and the sword is just weaksauce compared to the rl inspired Versions.

Agreed its a model first situation most likely.

Someone in the studio did some cool concept art, and a lead went "Nice! We should make that!". Then the rules team came up with something to fit the model.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf i don't know why everyone keeps harping on him beeing cool...
The Face Mask Looks Bad and the sword is just weaksauce compared to the rl inspired Versions.

The concept is cool. The facemask is dumb. Of course I hate any model I can't put in a full helmet. Slap a skull mask or a reiver face instead and it might not be so bad. The Sword isn't bad, I like the recessed writing, doing that on purity seals and banners/etc would be awesome. He should probably be an HQ not an Elite. The one Phobos one Gravis rimmed shoulderpad is freaking weird. More fluff is required, I assume the hourglass is the Tempormortis Device, so a story with one of these guys activating the device by letting it drop from arm's length having the spike hit then penetrate the ground or get driven into the bottom of the device as an activator switch while the Judiciar puts the second hand on the giant Relic blade to start swinging would have helped too. Without that kind of investment, I'm really just making jokes about if the Grey Knights and Monty Python had babies....

The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.

This guy's conversion makes him look pretty much perfect imo.

https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

Looking at the hourglass, I understand why they tried to give him some sort of slow-mo special rule- but I feel like a more elegant rule would have been a charge penalty. "Enemies 6'' or further away that are declaring a charge suffer a -3 penalty (to a minimum distance of 1'') to their charge result" would have given a concrete bonus without being overbearing.

I shall continue to field my company champion, thanks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.



https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

I forgot about the Chaplain. They keep making new Cassius models (800 year old Ultramarine Chaplain whose face is falling off the steel skull underneath) without actually pulling the trigger to make him Primaris.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.

This guy's conversion makes him look pretty much perfect imo.

https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

Looking at the hourglass, I understand why they tried to give him some sort of slow-mo special rule- but I feel like a more elegant rule would have been a charge penalty. "Enemies 6'' or further away that are declaring a charge suffer a -3 penalty (to a minimum distance of 1'') to their charge result" would have given a concrete bonus without being overbearing.

I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.