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Are the adeptus Custodes just space marines for people who primaris marines aren't marine enough?

Neither of them belong on a battlefield but for different reasons.
Custodes should not be an “army” but could be used for special thematic games e.g. assault on the throne of humankind type stuff.
Primaris aka adeptus restartes aka numarines aka Cawl’s balls should not exist at all, except as new models for a dated range.
So, yes, in a way, they may be a super marine that is more super than super marines.
The difference is that I may someday own a custodes, just for collecting.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Are the adeptus Custodes just space marines for people who primaris marines aren't marine enough?

Nope. They're oiled up door guards in leather pants who for no apparent reason now wander around wearing better terminator armor and punching random orks and whatever in the face instead of their actual job.

Brief history as canon stands:

Custodes: First and coolest (according to the Romanticist "older is cooler" fantasy trope) modded-human super-soldiers. Produced entirely via genetic alteration, the process starts in childhood and must be individually tailored to the subject. Loaded with an arsenal of the coolest Dark Age hyper-tech that the Emperor never let the Mechanicum get ahold of. Horrendously resource-intensive and inefficient to produce.

Thunder Warriors: Beta-prototype mass-produced super-soldiers. Unstable, unreliable. Wiped out by the first Space Marines.

Space Marines: Large-scale mass-produced super-soldiers, refinement of the Thunder Warriors. Gene-seed and the cybernetic implants allow for the creation of bigger, fancier troops in an industrialized manner with a smaller investment of resources. The Horus Heresy exposed their failings (less resistant to Chaos corruption).

Grey Knights: SM 1.5. Modded gene-seed and altered training protocols used in an attempt to patch the original Space Marines' vulnerability to Chaos. It sort of works, but the scale/efficiency advantages of normal SM are lost (I'm inferring from the fact that there aren't very many).

Primaris: SM 2.0. Product of Cawl and Corax' attempts to refine the SM process, hopefully an improvement over the originals in stability/resistance to corruption. Until GW decides they need to release Chaos Primaris, of course.

Custodes are not super-Space Marines for people whose Primaris are not super-Space Marine enough, they're the conceptual prototype that the whole "Space Marine" project was trying to mass produce in the first place.

Fluffwise, at least. Game-wise they're one of the half-baked armies where GW thinks to themselves "Hey, if we make, like, three kits and write a Codex with just those three kits we can make sure people have to buy a load of duplicates to play the army and we don't have to set up the production lines for a bunch of different moulds!" in the same way that the Harlequins, Knights, and half the Sigmar armies are, and they're barely rescued by the fact that FW wanted to make them a full list for 30k and made sure they had a few more 40k datasheets.

The Adeptus Custodes are an awesome intrinsic part of the fluff from countless years ago.

Primaris are a crappy shoehorned-in concept with garbage fluff solely designed to powercreep ‘normal’ SM and force sales even more blatantly than the rest of GW’s ranges.

TL/DR

No. Custodes are not, and never have been, Astartes.

Primaris exist. Quit, or get over it. You moaning on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn’t going to change the fact of their existence.

Matt, have you considered spending a few minutes on Google before starting some of these topics?

Now, about that man-made climate change...

I find it funny when people whine about Custodes being too few in number to be a "real" army. There are several times more Custodes than there are Space Marines of any given chapter. Heck, Marines in general are supposed to be relatively rare, to the point where the vast majority of the Imperium will never see one in their lifetime.

Custodes were created by the Emperor himself, using his own genes and skill. The Primaris were Cawl's attempt to mimic that?(attempting to read the Great work now) but fell far short. The Custodes are essentially mini-emperors that have zero psyker talent. They are physically and mentally as perfect as can be made, and still be essentially human. Primaris are the Cheap chinese knock off. As a matter of fact, Cawl and the entire Mechanicus is pretty much Huawei.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TL/DR

No. Custodes are not, and never have been, Astartes.

Primaris exist. Quit, or get over it. You moaning on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn’t going to change the fact of their existence.

This.

Custodes aren't Astartes in the same way AdMech aren't Astartes - because they're not Astartes.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Are the adeptus Custodes just space marines for people who primaris marines aren't marine enough?

Basically.

I mean I guess GW could re-write Custodes so the average guy has say 10 attacks and 6 wounds to try and put a bigger gap back in, but at this point they function essentially the same.

Custodes predate Primaris both in fluff for more than 20 years and on the tabletop for like 3-4 years.

The various editions of 40k are essentially a burial ground for GW's various iterations of 'same narrative role as marine, but marinier.'

You've got:

-Ultramarines being The Best of The Best With All The Special Characters That Are Generic HQ But The Best One Of That

-Legion of the damned woooah kickass heavy metal ghost rider awesome hot wheels flames marines

-All the editions where dark angels then blood angels then space wolves were "Marines, but with bonus special rules for no extra points"

-The introduction and ward-ification of Grey Knights

-The introduction of Deathwatch as The Best of The Best of The Best special forces green beret marines

-The whole wave of kits for Super Awesome Elite Gold-Encrusted Bling Marines (Venerable Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guards etc etc)

-Custodes (marines so mariney they're not even MARINES, They're to marines what a guardsman - no, a DOG - no, a WORM - no, an AMEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBAAAAAAAAAA is to a space marine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

-Primaris, whoops, um, scratch that whole thing about custodes, we're gonna just awkwardly reshuffle their statlines so they're incredibly close to a terminator and hope you forget we added those guys, turns out we accidentally did this thing where people could buy one 66$ kit and use it as 3 HQs and have like a 1k list out of just that? No, we'd rather you buy more miniatures please, these are the new marinier marines, buy them.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE HALF-DOZEN EXTRA SUPER SPECIAL MARINE-IER MARINE FACTIONS WE HAVE ADDED TO THE GAME THUSFAR!

These are the ones we will be supporting going forward!

Your investment is super duper safe!

the Iphone 11 Marines are definitely, 100%, definitely THE elite, marine-ier marines, no other marine-ier marines that are marine-ier than your marines will ever be introduced!

They have three cameras!

Scotsman in with his normal witty view. I don't think they are an evolution of the stupid GW power creep ethos. They existed long before the Astartes, and as many have pointed out, they are not even supposed to be on the table. They fell victim to the Indomitus Curse, where everyone caught in it succumbs to the worsening of their respective fluff/lore.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scotsman in with his normal witty view. I don't think they are an evolution of the stupid GW power creep ethos. They existed long before the Astartes, and as many have pointed out, they are not even supposed to be on the table. They fell victim to the Indomitus Curse, where everyone caught in it succumbs to the worsening of their respective fluff/lore.

...I feel like the real 'thing people aren't aware of so we need to have a 20 page thread about it' is that "The Lore" isn't this magic sacred document that GW's writers are loathe to ever change to suit their needs...it's just a thing some guy made up to sell toys. It's always gonna be that. If GW wants to sell a new toy and that new toy conflicts with the existing lore, the existing lore will ALWAYS change. GW could decide tomorrow that the whole cawl situation didn't happen, Primaris are from an ancient STC that predates custodes and regular marines and were hand-crafted by the emperor secretly in the year 200 BC.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TL/DR

No. Custodes are not, and never have been, Astartes.

Primaris exist. Quit, or get over it. You moaning on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn’t going to change the fact of their existence.

Doc, if I believed in signatures, I'd put this quote in mine.

Seriously, folks. Get over it or quit. Stop trying to poop on what other people like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scotsman in with his normal witty view. I don't think they are an evolution of the stupid GW power creep ethos. They existed long before the Astartes, and as many have pointed out, they are not even supposed to be on the table. They fell victim to the Indomitus Curse, where everyone caught in it succumbs to the worsening of their respective fluff/lore.

...I feel like the real 'thing people aren't aware of so we need to have a 20 page thread about it' is that "The Lore" isn't this magic sacred document that GW's writers are loathe to ever change to suit their needs...it's just a thing some guy made up to sell toys. It's always gonna be that. If GW wants to sell a new toy and that new toy conflicts with the existing lore, the existing lore will ALWAYS change. GW could decide tomorrow that the whole cawl situation didn't happen, Primaris are from an ancient STC that predates custodes and regular marines and were hand-crafted by the emperor secretly in the year 200 BC.

And this.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TL/DR

No. Custodes are not, and never have been, Astartes.

Primaris exist. Quit, or get over it. You moaning on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn’t going to change the fact of their existence.

Yes we know you have been telling this to us for 150+years and the Irish for 300. The advice does not work for some people.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE HALF-DOZEN EXTRA SUPER SPECIAL MARINE-IER MARINE FACTIONS WE HAVE ADDED TO THE GAME THUSFAR!

Which had rules and codex since 2ed. Which is older then tau, almost older then necron etc. If those marines are to be counted as new updates what are those?

Karol wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TL/DR

No. Custodes are not, and never have been, Astartes.

Primaris exist. Quit, or get over it. You moaning on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn’t going to change the fact of their existence.

Yes we know you have been telling this to us for 150+years and the Irish for 300. The advice does not work for some people.

Uh, what? What does any of that have to do with plastic toy soldiers?

They're plastic toys. They exist. If you genuinely can't talk about Primaris without moaning about their existence, I don't think Primaris are the biggest problem in that equation.

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scotsman in with his normal witty view. I don't think they are an evolution of the stupid GW power creep ethos. They existed long before the Astartes, and as many have pointed out, they are not even supposed to be on the table. They fell victim to the Indomitus Curse, where everyone caught in it succumbs to the worsening of their respective fluff/lore.

...I feel like the real 'thing people aren't aware of so we need to have a 20 page thread about it' is that "The Lore" isn't this magic sacred document that GW's writers are loathe to ever change to suit their needs...it's just a thing some guy made up to sell toys. It's always gonna be that. If GW wants to sell a new toy and that new toy conflicts with the existing lore, the existing lore will ALWAYS change. GW could decide tomorrow that the whole cawl situation didn't happen, Primaris are from an ancient STC that predates custodes and regular marines and were hand-crafted by the emperor secretly in the year 200 BC.

What you say is of course correct, but I feel the need to say that people (not you specifically) often forget that lore and lore consistency is in fact important, even for miniature sales though it surely is not the most important factor by far. I believe you can't just re-write your lore endlessly as a company. At some point the fans will stop suspending their disbelief and lose interest. A good example is their "everything is canon, but not everything is true" approach. Having unreliable and biased narrators for your lore can be an interesting concept, but if you push it too far, every crackpot theory is suddenly possible and nothing matters. You need an objective bedrock for your setting to rest on.

As for OPs question: as has been said already, no they are not astartes, but you probably knew that already when you made this post...

Quasistellar wrote:
Seriously, folks. Get over it or quit. Stop trying to poop on what other people like.

Kindly direct that advice to the portion of the Steroid Boy fanbase who keep crowing about traditional Marines getting squatted in the "immediate" future.

Though given they've been doing that since the launch of 8th edition and it hasn't happened yet...

Wow, this post put on a jump pack and went right over a lot of people's heads.

I'm not complaining about primaris, i like the concept and never had a problem with it. Hell, after 10,000 years you think someone would improve the imperium's finest troops somehow. Even if they came in a little deus ex machina, i never had a problem with primaris themselves. Marine should probably have had 2 wounds from the get go.

The point was, and i hope people get it, is that first we have space marines, and for a long time they were the standard.

Then we get primaris, basically super space marines, and ok, I never had an issue with them and found them perfectly acceptable despite the slight DEM way they were introduced.

So the primaris become the super marines, then we get the adeptus custodes who play on the table like what, I can't say 'ultra marines" obviously, what else is beyond "super marines", mega marines?

They really do look to me as a non AC player like basically just super primaris marines. yea yeah not the same according to the fluff, I get it.

But they still come off on the table as the "mariner than thou" marines. Sorry if people didn't get it and took it as a slam on primaris, which it wasn't.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Wow, this post put on a jump pack and went right over a lot of people's heads.

I'm not complaining about primaris, i like the concept and never had a problem with it. Hell, after 10,000 years you think someone would improve the imperium's finest troops somehow. Even if they came in a little deus ex machina, i never had a problem with primaris themselves. Marine should probably have had 2 wounds from the get go.

The point was, and i hope people get it, is that first we have space marines, and for a long time they were the standard.

Then we get primaris, basically super space marines, and ok, I never had an issue with them and found them perfectly acceptable despite the slight DEM way they were introduced.

So the primaris become the super marines, then we get the adeptus custodes who play on the table like what, I can't say 'ultra marines" obviously, what else is beyond "super marines", mega marines?

They really do look to me as a non AC player like basically just super primaris marines. yea yeah not the same according to the fluff, I get it.

But they still come off on the table as the "mariner than thou" marines. Sorry if people didn't get it and took it as a slam on primaris, which it wasn't.

They are not mega marines in the sense that they are just more shiny space marines. The custodes predate the space marines and even the primarchs by some time. They were the first enhanced humans the emperor created. The difference here is that custodes don't have a geneseed, each one is individually custom crafted using gene alchemy.
They are stronger physically and better individual warriors than both normal and primaris marines, which does not mean however that they are more effective soldiers.
They were created for a different purpose than marines. They are the emperors bodyguards first an foremost, they were also meant to give the emperor counsel, but their ultimate purpose was to protect and guide humanity after the emperor had completed his web way project and dragged the human race forward towards it's ascension to becoming a race of psykers. As we all know that plan did not go so well.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Wow, this post put on a jump pack and went right over a lot of people's heads.

I'm not complaining about primaris, i like the concept and never had a problem with it. Hell, after 10,000 years you think someone would improve the imperium's finest troops somehow. Even if they came in a little deus ex machina, i never had a problem with primaris themselves. Marine should probably have had 2 wounds from the get go.

The point was, and i hope people get it, is that first we have space marines, and for a long time they were the standard.

Then we get primaris, basically super space marines, and ok, I never had an issue with them and found them perfectly acceptable despite the slight DEM way they were introduced.

So the primaris become the super marines, then we get the adeptus custodes who play on the table like what, I can't say 'ultra marines" obviously, what else is beyond "super marines", mega marines?

They really do look to me as a non AC player like basically just super primaris marines. yea yeah not the same according to the fluff, I get it.

But they still come off on the table as the "mariner than thou" marines. Sorry if people didn't get it and took it as a slam on primaris, which it wasn't.

I think people are confused because that explanation doesn't make any sense.
Custodes existed from the beginning, just like basic marines- they were both in the original rogue trader rulebook. [Though they looked very different- leather pants, spears, helmets, and thats it.]
Fluffwise, they're older than marines.

So yes, people take it as a slam on either marines in general or primaris marines, because that's the only way it makes sense, because in both the game's history and setting's history, Custodes were around long before primaris. Or the current trend of marines marines marines.
It'd be like talking about Sisters of Battle or Imperial Guard Stormtroopers only in terms of how they aren't as good as marines, and assuming that, for some reason, they're the product of projects to produce marines on a smaller budget.

From a gaming standpoint theyre not really all that similar to basic marines. Theyre maybe super-terminators? But thats just the basic infantry guardian dudes, and even then thats a streetch because theyre more anti elite in melee and shooting than the classic tac termie anti chaff gun/anti tank fist.

Theyre also shorter range than marines, and iirc dont deep strike, and have different auras....so I guess if youd call an all-wraith Eldar army "basically marines" then yeah, custodes are "basically marines."

Concept wise- yeah. Identical general narrative fantasy. Theyre the super shiny super heroes for the dudes whose favorite character is Superman because hes got all the powers. Its GWs very favorite shtick to trot out to get people who have a marine army to buy another army, so it must work.

Imo Matts point makes perfect sense. They're another type of dude in power armor added on top of all the other dudes-in-power-armor. An even-betterer-golden-boy-dude-in-power-armor faction. Regardless of whether they've existed in the fluff or not, they've never manifested themselves on the table in any real form before now. (I'll look in the resources I have though.)

 Insectum7 wrote:
Imo Matts point makes perfect sense. They're another type of dude in power armor added on top of all the other dudes-in-power-armor. An even-betterer-golden-boy-dude-in-power-armor faction. Regardless of whether they've existed in the fluff or not, they've never manifested themselves on the table in any real form before now. (I'll look in the resources I have though.)

Emperor's love be upon you, brother Insectum. You got it. On the tabletop they are basically more or less a "more space mariney than space marines" army.

But you might want to add "Genetically enhanced super" to your post before dude. That's another thing that links them to marines in a way.

If people want to go back to rogue trader remember they also had eldar helmets and 'naked torsos" originally.



Here's an original miniature.

Insectum7 wrote:Imo Matts point makes perfect sense. They're another type of dude in power armor added on top of all the other dudes-in-power-armor. An even-betterer-golden-boy-dude-in-power-armor faction. Regardless of whether they've existed in the fluff or not, they've never manifested themselves on the table in any real form before now. (I'll look in the resources I have though.)

Thing is, could the same not be said of Sisters just being "underpowered Marines"? Which, clearly, they're not, besides that they wear a type of powered armour.

I dunno, I just think the whole "they wear big armour so they're just Marines" is really reductive view, and there's nothing wrong with highlighting that, no, they're not Marines in the slightest.

....except that "On The Tabletop" if custodes are "just marines' then a WHOLE TON OF STUFF is also "just marines."

There's one marine elite choice - bladeguard veterans - out of literally dozens that one unit in one configuration in AC bears similarity to. Eldar Wraiths and Tyranid Warriors and Immortal-based lists are then similarly also "just marines."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Imo Matts point makes perfect sense. They're another type of dude in power armor added on top of all the other dudes-in-power-armor. An even-betterer-golden-boy-dude-in-power-armor faction. Regardless of whether they've existed in the fluff or not, they've never manifested themselves on the table in any real form before now. (I'll look in the resources I have though.)

Thing is, could the same not be said of Sisters just being "underpowered Marines"? Which, clearly, they're not, besides that they wear a type of powered armour.

I dunno, I just think the whole "they wear big armour so they're just Marines" is really reductive view, and there's nothing wrong with highlighting that, no, they're not Marines in the slightest.

Well, let's see.

SoBs have the same WS, S,T, W and A as a vanilla guardsman. They are better shots possibly due to superior quality and more accurate weapons. They have a much better save due to better armor.

They are not weak space marines, they're elite human forces. Space marines are enhanced humans, with all sorts of biotech implants but i think their DNA is still baseline human, i'm not sure if the implants change their DNA.

Custodes if i read their fluff right are genetically engineered to the point if you put a sample of their DNA in a modern genetics lab someone analyzing it would probable scream "What the is this?!?!"

But on a battlefield SOBs have a lot in common with guardsmen. Hell, IG stormtroopers aren't much worse than they are.

Space marines have higher stats all round, better armor and better weapons plus all sorts of rules like ATSKNF.

The Custodes predate the Primaris both in the lore and in the real world, so I'd say no.