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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





As many of you know by now, I'm not really a Marine player, though I do like DW and GK as Chambers Militant.

But I came across some leaks for a plastic Horus Heresy box, and since we know GW loves marketing models across multiple platforms to maximize sales, I'm beginning to think rumours about the death of Old-Marines have been greatly exaggerated. Might explain why Ol-Marines were bumped up to two wounds too.

Oh, and since they are Heresy era beakies... Is that Renegades and Heretics I hear from the wings?

Just hoping here, for the sake of all the folks who love Old-Marines. Half of me still expects it to be revealed as a hoax. But I thought I'd start a conversation. You guys are bigger fans than I am, so check it out.

https://www.facebook.com/therealkingfluff/posts/1941242939363297
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Dunno tbh, seen some peeps guess that they have been scaled to the newer CSM models but with no frame of reference who knows. My biggest gripe is seeing the plastic Spartan and knowing it's going to be all over the place in 40k now it's not a janky piece of resin kit. The more 30k era stuff GW ports into 40k to keep the 40k SM players happy, at least IMO, takes away unique aspects of 30k having relic and ancient tech.
I'm disappointed it got leaked though, assuming it would have been revealed pretty soon I'd prefer to have no knowledge of it and be surprised like with Maloghurst and Argel Tal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 20:04:45


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
Dunno tbh, seen some peeps guess that they have been scaled to the newer CSM models but with no frame of reference who knows. My biggest gripe is seeing the plastic Spartan and knowing it's going to be all over the place in 40k now it's not a janky piece of resin kit. The more 30k era stuff GW ports into 40k to keep the 40k SM players happy, at least IMO, takes away unique aspects of 30k having relic and ancient tech.
I'm disappointed it got leaked though, assuming it would have been revealed pretty soon I'd prefer to have no knowledge of it and be surprised like with Maloghurst and Argel Tal.

Heresy era units make perfect sense for the Veterans of the Long War. They're Heresy era units themselves, after all. Loyalists should just stick with their floating metal boxes, though.
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Removed - Rule #1

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:23:51


   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





I mean it flat out won't crush Primaris as they each have their own appeal and fans. I happen to prefer Primaris to Firstborn for modeling and painting.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

I'm excited, I need more firstborn marines to finish out Pellas Mir'san Badab war strikeforce & more for my 30k Salamanders!


Count me excited for everything....except the potential price.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Heresy era units make perfect sense for the Veterans of the Long War. They're Heresy era units themselves, after all. Loyalists should just stick with their floating metal boxes, though.

I'm a bit of yes/no for CSM getting certain Heresy era units because I do think CSM should show they are ancient warriors from a time forgotten but at the same time it shouldn't mean they get all the relics under the sun.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Heresy era units make perfect sense for the Veterans of the Long War. They're Heresy era units themselves, after all. Loyalists should just stick with their floating metal boxes, though.

I'm a bit of yes/no for CSM getting certain Heresy era units because I do think CSM should show they are ancient warriors from a time forgotten but at the same time it shouldn't mean they get all the relics under the sun.

Don't worry. None of the recent HH units were given rules in the Compendium. No backwards Sicarans, 30k Hetzers, or the Fellblade with a Volkite. So it looks like gw isn't porting anything else over.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

In my opinion Legions should have access to all/most things 30k without paying an extra fee like 1 CP per unit.

For hyping up the "they are on a crusade for the last 10k years against the Imperium and time flows differently in the warp" they haven't much old tech in their list. Which for me is more fitting for recently turned renegade Chapters.

Grey Knights Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





The thing is that a lot of the Heresy era tech (Volkite, old styles of tank, aircraft) is very high maintenance beyond the capabilities of most Warbands. Now I could see the IW holding on to some siege weapons and the EC keeping some aircraft in good nick but TBH I'd rather the FW stuff was taxed but CSM got more weird weapons to reflect their affiliation along the lines of the Dinobots and nightmare fuel spiders. I love CSM don't get me wrong but it's so difficult to justify them beyond "spiky loyalists that get less stuff".
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




I'm using Mk III armored troops as noise marines (including the actual sonic weapons) and I use cataphracci terminators as my normal terminators (CSM don't get cataphracci so there's no confusion about what they are). I just like the look and feel of having some 30k stuff in my Emp's Children army.
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 jeff white wrote:
Removed - Rule #1


Every post you make is like this. Guess what? Primaris are here to stay.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:24:40


Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Every post? Damn, dude is in serious denial.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Does a new plastic Horus Heresy box mean new life for Old-Marines?


Nope. Not to be too cynical, but it'd be a neat sales box that will sell well, but it doesn't mean squat for the longevity of Old Marines. GW has quite happily introduced new things then pulled the plug is a surprisingly short period before. (Titanicus was pretty galling back in the day, as were the new wood elf models that are gone now).

I'm curious to see if they're scaled like the new chaos marines. That might give some reason to buy 'em.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
The thing is that a lot of the Heresy era tech (Volkite, old styles of tank, aircraft) is very high maintenance beyond the capabilities of most Warbands. Now I could see the IW holding on to some siege weapons and the EC keeping some aircraft in good nick but TBH I'd rather the FW stuff was taxed but CSM got more weird weapons to reflect their affiliation along the lines of the Dinobots and nightmare fuel spiders. I love CSM don't get me wrong but it's so difficult to justify them beyond "spiky loyalists that get less stuff".

If they can maintain their starships, which are more sophisticated than modern Imperial ships, they can maintain a tank. Also, two words: DARK MECHANICUS. They still have many of the old STCs and don't have the same issues that their loyalist counterparts do with reverse engineering things. And daemon engines are great for Black Legion and Word Bearers etc, but Night Lords don't hang out with daemons or worship Chaos in general. Every Legion isn't Black Legion.

And having the Legions use older technology while loyalist march into the bright new future of Cawl tech is a way to differentiate the two from each other. Primaris are the New Breed, with new weapons and technology, the Legions are the old veterans with ancient technology. That's a difference.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they can maintain their starships, which are more sophisticated than modern Imperial ships, they can maintain a tank. Also, two words: DARK MECHANICUS.

There are objectively less DM FW than loyalist ones and the STC's they do have are either hopelessly corrupted or non-existent. There is a huge difference between repairing a ship where the problems are large, easily identifyable and an be fixed with numerous other parts of other ships, and repairing a Sicaran Venator that you can't replace because the only FW that has the parts is Mars.

Spoiler:
They still have many of the old STCs and don't have the same issues that their loyalist counterparts do with reverse engineering things. And daemon engines are great for Black Legion and Word Bearers etc, but Night Lords don't hang out with daemons or worship Chaos in general. Every Legion isn't Black Legion.

Exactly, reverse engineer to make new things not the old ones. Predators with cursed deamonmaw guns and such.
As for Deamon Engines, yeah not every Legion uses them but you don't have to take them in the first place but even then more Legions are likely to use Engines than not anyway. Off the top of my head Word Bearers (cos Deamon worship), Black Legion (cos Abbaddon literally order the creation of the Defiler), World Eaters (Deamon worship/stupid high casualty rates), Thousand Sons (need to fill out the Legion somehow), Death Guard (Gifts of the Grandfather), Iron Warriors (Walls break when you hit them with really big fists).
At best non-Engine Legions are the Alpha Legion (cos cultist spam), Night Lords because they're CSM but not really (which IMO is dumb when they're in the primary Chaos faction, it would be like having one of the main loyalist chapters not actually be loyal (DO NOT MAKE A DARK ANGELS MEME)) and Emperor's Children who TBH might even go for it because Deamon worship.
Overall, despite having a love for the faction, CSM still don't feel Chaos enough like the Tsons and DG do.

Spoiler:
And having the Legions use older technology while loyalist march into the bright new future of Cawl tech is a way to differentiate the two from each other. Primaris are the New Breed, with new weapons and technology, the Legions are the old veterans with ancient technology. That's a difference.

Which would work except Firstborn are still a thing and still have more stuff than the CSM range and on top of that in the base codex loyalist SM have more "relic" gear than CSM.

Also want to point out there are more Deamon troop choices in the CSM codex than CSM ones. Literally subverted in their own book by another faction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:24:28


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

I hope these MK6 have shoulder fired heavy weapons and assault marines. I've wanted a Sm army in MK6 for almost 20 years. I wish these had been available when I started collecting my First Legion for 30K. I am wondering if I can resell all my infantry, MK3 and 4 to afford the MK6. If this set has everything I would hope for I would gladly buy up a full battle company of MK6. as a 30K/40K SM army.
All that MK6 will take longer to buy than it will to paint.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Like we need more marine stuff.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





I get what you're saying about constant SM releases but at the same time, Heresy gets naff all and has a waaaay high buy-in price so getting plastic to make it ever so slightly cheaper to play is a good thing. It gets cited as the main game system by GW in their own annual report then gets no FAQ for 2 years so the rules are stale and maybe if we're extra lucky, three or 4 releases a year with the rest being teased for months on end and then silently released with no fanfare. GW even counts Titanicus as part of 30k so they can get out of doing Age of Darkness releases and updates.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:32:59


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I don't think new plastics for 30k are going to interfere with the slow replacement of oldmarines in 40k. It might move us further towards the time when oldmarines are entirely Legendsed and become 30k-only, and if you're playing 40k it's Primaris only.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Spoiler:
 Gert wrote:
There are objectively less DM FW than loyalist ones and the STC's they do have are either hopelessly corrupted or non-existent. There is a huge difference between repairing a ship where the problems are large, easily identifyable and an be fixed with numerous other parts of other ships, and repairing a Sicaran Venator that you can't replace because the only FW that has the parts is Mars.

Do you have a source for that? Because IA13 states that the Dark Mechanicus both builds and maintains Heresy Pattern vehicles, all the way up to Fellblades. Where does it objectively say that their STCs are hopelessly corrupted or non-existant? To my knowledge no source has more information about the Dark Mechanicus than IA13, and it never mentions it.

Spoiler:
Exactly, reverse engineer to make new things not the old ones. Predators with cursed deamonmaw guns and such.
As for Deamon Engines, yeah not every Legion uses them but you don't have to take them in the first place but even then more Legions are likely to use Engines than not anyway. Off the top of my head Word Bearers (cos Deamon worship), Black Legion (cos Abbaddon literally order the creation of the Defiler), World Eaters (Deamon worship/stupid high casualty rates), Thousand Sons (need to fill out the Legion somehow), Death Guard (Gifts of the Grandfather), Iron Warriors (Walls break when you hit them with really big fists).
At best non-Engine Legions are the Alpha Legion (cos cultist spam), Night Lords because they're CSM but not really (which IMO is dumb when they're in the primary Chaos faction, it would be like having one of the main loyalist chapters not actually be loyal (DO NOT MAKE A DARK ANGELS MEME)) and Emperor's Children who TBH might even go for it because Deamon worship.
Overall, despite having a love for the faction, CSM still don't feel Chaos enough like the Tsons and DG do.

Yes, exactly. All of the Legions don't function the same according to their lore, and they should have rules that allow them to function according to that lore. The last three CSM codexes have essentially turned all of the Legions into Black Legion with different paint schemes. That's great for Black Legion players, but not the rest of us. It doesn't matter whether you find the lore "dumb" or not. It's there, gw wrote it, and they should allow it to be represented in the rules.

Spoiler:

Which would work except Firstborn are still a thing and still have more stuff than the CSM range and on top of that in the base codex loyalist SM have more "relic" gear than CSM.

Also want to point out there are more Deamon troop choices in the CSM codex than CSM ones. Literally subverted in their own book by another faction.

Yes, everyone knows loyalists have more of everything than everyone else. That's on gw. It doesn't excuse restricting CSM from some of the few things we have. That's even more of a reason to give us SOMETHING loyalists don't have. And not putting the same restrictions on Heresy units on CSM as loyalists would do that without even needing new models.

The daemons are in the codex for summoning purposes. And they didn't used to be another faction. They used to be the same faction before the 4th edition codex came along and separated them.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, I'm looking forward to the new CSM dex- I'm planning on slow growing from a Cult. After discussions with some of the other Dakkanauts, I started re-examining the 8th dex with more of a critical eye, and I can see why CSM players right now are frustrated.

My relevant PA was an E-book, and I've had so much trouble trying to get it to display properly that I've pretty much given up. It's too bad, because I know there are some tools in there, but I can't really access them.

I genuinely hope CSM is the next dex in the release schedule, but with Gaunt's Ghost and the Cadian upgrades, I feel like they might be working towards Guard.

The absolute radio silence and tone-deaf reluctance to at least FAQ a second wound and a repeal of that Heresy era tech penalty make me think they might be planning something big...

Trouble is, there's a lot of factions that need something big- Guard, CWE and Chaos at the very least.

Anyway, I feel your pain, and I hope there is a dark and sickly light at the end of the tunnel.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

ERJAK wrote:
Like we need more marine stuff.


No, but GW does....
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







PenitentJake wrote:
...The absolute radio silence and tone-deaf reluctance to at least FAQ a second wound and a repeal of that Heresy era tech penalty make me think they might be planning something big...


It'd be incredible if tone-deaf failure to do obvious patches to the rules and complete refusal to talk about it was suddenly a deliberate signal that something big was on the way after forty years of that just being how GW interacts with their customers.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





What has any of this to do with renegades and heretics though?!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah- maybe I'm getting two different chaos complaints mixed up; the specific complaint that I feel this could address is the non-daemon allied, non-godsworn lot not being able to play like they should... But I guess those are actually the legions and not so much the R&H.

Self confessed Chaos Newb.

Plastic MKVI truescales, I think, bodes well for those units. I feel like GW will want to sell as many of them as possible to recoup the cost of all these brand new plastic moulds, and while I suspect it will draw a lot of folks into HH (especially if it is part of a new edition, as some are speculating), I think even with the additional wave of players, HH isn't a big enough player base on its own to actually do that.

So how do you make MKVI more appealing to 40K? Well, making them double up for chaos seemed like a decent strategy. Admittedly though, yeah, guess I got a bit mixed up, because heresy era stuff would more likely be in the legions.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah- maybe I'm getting two different chaos complaints mixed up; the specific complaint that I feel this could address is the non-daemon allied, non-godsworn lot not being able to play like they should... But I guess those are actually the legions and not so much the R&H.

Self confessed Chaos Newb.

Plastic MKVI truescales, I think, bodes well for those units. I feel like GW will want to sell as many of them as possible to recoup the cost of all these brand new plastic moulds, and while I suspect it will draw a lot of folks into HH (especially if it is part of a new edition, as some are speculating), I think even with the additional wave of players, HH isn't a big enough player base on its own to actually do that.

So how do you make MKVI more appealing to 40K? Well, making them double up for chaos seemed like a decent strategy. Admittedly though, yeah, guess I got a bit mixed up, because heresy era stuff would more likely be in the legions.


I have the feeling that you're not aware that "Renegades & Heretics" (or sometimes also referred to as "The Lost and the damned") doesn't feature any CSM, really (I think at some point you could include CSM units as an elite choice, but that was an outlier). R&H are a rabble of mutants, cultists, Traitor guardsmen, spawn, beastmen, zombies and what have you.
Renegade chapters on the other hand are probably what you have in mind - Loyalist turncoats post-heresy (Compared to Chaos legions - traitors from the heresy).
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






If these *are* Mk VI scaled up to match the SMH stuff, that’s just about the best possible news for my nascent 40K Crimson Fists Firstborn project, currently comprising a load of SMH Mk VII Marines and Terminators, and a Land Raider Proteus.
   
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Atlanta, GA

ERJAK wrote:
Like we need more marine stuff.


There's a big difference between putting out another 2-3 Primaris marine units every few months vs. plastic Mk6 for a different game system altogether. Guarantee that nobody who plays 30K is currently going "UGH, more space marines!".
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sgt. Cortez wrote:

I have the feeling that you're not aware that "Renegades & Heretics" (or sometimes also referred to as "The Lost and the damned") doesn't feature any CSM, really (I think at some point you could include CSM units as an elite choice, but that was an outlier). R&H are a rabble of mutants, cultists, Traitor guardsmen, spawn, beastmen, zombies and what have you.
Renegade chapters on the other hand are probably what you have in mind - Loyalist turncoats post-heresy (Compared to Chaos legions - traitors from the heresy).


Yep- this exactly my mistake; I assumed Renegade Chapters were a part of the R&H list.
   
 
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