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2021/07/03 18:26:31
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
A byproduct of nuking the Old World. Archaon winning set the precedent for Chaos being a threat and then when it came to a whole new timeline for AoS, GW could continue with that precedent without destroying the setting they made. The Mortal Realms are a huge canvas for GW to play with that has almost no ties to WHFB. Each Grand Alliance isn't a flat faction, and they all hate each other as much as they hate the other alliances and each one is a real threat to the others.
The Aeldari aren't a threat because they're a dying race trapped in specific locations like Commoragh or the Craftworlds, they can only do so much before they have to pull back. The Aelves in AoS live in all the Realms and we've seen events like in Broken Realms where Morathi went from background mention to literal God.
The big events in AoS (Sigmar's invasion, the Soul Wars, the Broken Realms, etc.) all result in real consequences for the factions in-universe, such as the breaking of the dominion of Chaos, the creation of the Night Haunt and Bonereapers, and the loss of Anvilgard. 40k doesn't have that because of the way the factions work, it's the Imperium vs everyone else. Everyone takes chunks out of the Imperium constantly but the Imperium can never lose like Sigmar did and return thousands of years later ready to retake its lost holdings.
Chaos can't win because if it did the setting would be over just like the Old World.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 18:26:56
2021/07/03 18:37:55
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
I think with AoS Chaos as well you can tell more stories than in 40k.
With 40k you're basically trapped into "this Warband was part of X Legion/Chapter until Y happened and now they're Chaos" or "these are Renegades and Heretics, they exist to die".
With AoS you can do way more. We've had a Khorne Lord who is the brother of a Stormcast that repents and closes a portal to the Realm of Chaos by sacrificing himself. There was a grand host of Nurglites led by a knightly order with their very own Lady of the Lake. GW has shown multiple facets of Slaanesh worshipers with the recent updates.
In AoS I can field a Chaos army and have not a single model be a Warrior of Chaos or Daemon. With 40k you can't really do that.
2021/07/03 20:14:22
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
A.T. wrote: Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.
Immediately after Cadia happened and the Rift formed, the Custodes and SoS beat the Khorne invasion of Terra, Guilliman came back with thousands more Space Marines, then those same SM went around winning 70% of the battles they fought because all of the Chaos forces suddenly became super disorganised and scattered as soon as the Rift showed up. What product lines got killed off though?
I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.
Until the Rift, Tyranids were actually a threat. Leviathan had come from beneath the Galatic Plane, invading Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Tempestus and even Segmentum Solar all at the same time. It started the Octarius War (still ongoing and is another Ork paradise like Armageddon), caused Inquisitor Kryptman to Exterminatus hundreds of valuable Imperial worlds to stop the feeding frenzy, attacked the T'au Empire, multiple Necron fiefdoms and nearly ended the Blood Angels and most of their Successors. Behemoth nearly destroyed Ultramar and now there's a Hive Fleet that has already adapted to be able to effectively fight Daemons.
The problem is Tyranids aren't a personable faction like CSM, Orks or Necrons so it's much more difficult to tell a story with them.
Ghazghkull was and sort of still is Ork Jesus, leading millions of Orks on a crusade to Ork Valhalla but the Orks stopped being a crisis threat after the War of the Beast.
At best we have the resurgent Necrons as the new end game faction but even then I'm not 100% sold on them like I was Tyranids.
2021/07/03 20:32:46
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
A.T. wrote: Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.
Weird since Cadians just got an update kit and you can still buy most of, if not all, the Firstborn models. And in the background Cadians exist all over the place not just on Cadia. There are regiments on settled worlds, regiments on detachment, regiments who are used to train other newly raised regiments on other worlds. And of course GW can't and won't get rid of Firstborn until they're 100% sure they can replace the range without insane backlash.
2021/07/03 20:33:52
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Didn't they have to re-write chaos's mostly failed 13th black crusade before they made it out that he had some hidden aim he just pulled out of his ass? I tend not to follow the lore much anymore. WHFB had the lore I cared more about.
Not really, most of the Crusades had a defined goal anyway and it was the ones that were left vague that were added to/changed. The global campaign wasn't considered "canon" anyway.
2021/07/03 21:58:03
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.
Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th. Not sure what you mean by lesser known denizens of Cadia.
2021/07/04 11:41:29
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.
This isn't actually true. On the surface factions like Stormcast or Cities of Sigmar are seen as the "good" factions but the Grand Alliances aren't split along these lines.
Order is the absence of Chaos and since GW got rid of the big book from 1st Ed, it's a lot more obvious that the Order "alliance" isn't all good guys.
Death is technically another form of Order, Nagash and Sigmar actually used to get along quite well in the Age of Myth. All is Nagash and Nagash is all and the Law of Nagash is strict and unbending. In fact Death is more dedicated to order than Order is.
Destruction factions fight for fun and/or snacks. They're just here to have a good time, which just so happens to include lots of killing.
Chaos isn't necessarily evil its just the opposite of Order. However, since the Dark Gods are evil and the positive aspects of their power are corrupted, Chaos is the bad guy faction.
The Grand Alliances aren't solid pacts, Broken Realms proves that with Order especially.
2021/07/04 12:45:32
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Nah, Vigilus is now another Armageddon situation. Forces will flock to it from all sides looking for a scrap and it'll never been looked at properly again.
2021/07/04 13:34:43
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Watson's stuff is without a doubt cursed. The Emperor can still speak to people though and He was never specifically dead-dead. I personally viewed the situation like that of some Buddhists who meditate for so long their body dies but the belief is that their soul(?) survives and can still become enlightened. So the Emperor's body is basically a corpse but His soul is still very much around and influencing things.
2021/07/04 14:17:16
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
It's a setting that's about 30 years old. There's so much stuff that's been written about it that it would take a seriously huge effort to pick apart every single novel/audiobook/Codex/campaign book to get a coherent 100% fact canon setting.
I don't think the bit about other IPs being better at fact-checking is true at all. ST: Discovery had quite a few errors until they solved the problem of being a historical setting and throwing the crew into the future, Star Wars has holes and errors all over and an entire movie was made to explain why the Death Star had such a colossally stupid design flaw.
AoS solved continuity errors by being a full refresh setting that also takes place over X number of years rather than having specific dates. There's no dating system and time is only really recorded in Ages (Age of Myth, Age of Chaos, etc.).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 14:18:42
2021/07/04 20:54:46
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.
There's still plenty of mystery and sandboxing for 40k.
Also, come on dude is the swearing and cursing really necessary?
2021/07/04 21:40:24
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
I think the point is that while the HH might be the defining point with regard to the Imperium and Chaos, it shouldn't also be the defining point for Necrons, Tyranids etc.
Similar to the complaints people brought up earlier, where Xeno races have just become toothless threats that only exist so that GW can go "Hah, just kidding! The real threat is actually Chaos, just like it was last time and the time before that . . ."
The only links I know of between the Necrons and the Heresy is that Trazyn nicked a ship full of EC gene-seed for kicks. But considering that Trazyn's entire character is that he nicks stuff I don't see how that counts.
And considering that the 40k setting is dominated by the Imperium there isn't really much that the Heresy wouldn't have effected. The Imperium's lax military policies post-Heresy due to the false belief that humanity was safe led to the resurgence of the Orks and the subsequent War of the Beast.
If the Traitor forces had won then the Aeldari would be in danger of extinction and consumption by Slaanesh, something they are kind of trying to avoid.
As for the Tyranids, IMO the act of friendship that saw Dantioch sacrifice himself to save Polux and a company of Ultramarines inadvertently getting the attention of a terrifying extra-galactic foe is pretty cool. Nobody within the setting even knows that's how the Nid's first noticed the Milky Way but now they've found it the Astronomican is the new beacon for the murder moths.
When you have ten thousand years of bureaucratic and religious stagnation, across a galaxy of millions of worlds, tying all of the Imperium's problems back to the same cast of superheroes is pretty limiting.
So I mean, yeah, having everything wrong with the Imperium come from the primarchs- including seemingly completely unrelated things like extragalactic aliens- is pretty dissatisfying for those of us who don't care for The Avengers But With Daddy Issues.
That's a bit of an oversimplification of events. By "a bit" I mean "a very large".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 21:41:23
2021/07/04 23:05:51
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
The Hive Mind isn't just Chaos with eating though. Previously its been seen as just an animal following instinct but each successive Hive Fleet has shown that the Hive Mind is intelligent and dangerous. The fact that specifically targeted the Blood Angels, to me at least, shows that it's capable of emotion which makes it that much more dangerous. It can learn and adapt but also feel rage and pick out specific targets for that rage.
Also the Hive Mind has always been Warp sensitive, this isn't new. Thats what the Shadow in the Warp is, the Hive Minds presence blocking access.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/05 11:41:24
2021/07/05 15:10:55
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
There is a huge difference in a bird imitating a human voice and an extragalactic psychic presence speaking to you in your mind.
The Hive Mind isn't a bird it's a malevolent intelligence that rapidly adapts to the enemies it fights.
2021/07/05 18:30:49
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/05 18:31:47
2021/07/05 18:41:27
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Have you ever been in a wood, at night 10-20km from nearest human village, with the closest thing to a weapon being a a knife and with full knowladge that against stuff like boar herds, bears, wild dogs or smugglers it amounts to nothing? Because I can tell you that you feel terror, if that happens to you. Also if humans are bad to each other, the chance of something not human being good to a human is statistically improbable.
Thats not really unknown though is it. That's very real fear of very real threats you know are in the woods. Animals tend to attack humans when humans go into their territory, its not random.
Spoiler:
Why try to comprehand a non human in a face to face met up? Do I need to know what a pack of wild dogs or herd of boars thinks when it come near me? Do I have to do an indepth analyzys of their feelings? No I don't, 200k years of evolution gave every human enough genetical knowladge to know how to act in such situation. And I would say the majority of encounters with the unknown are best solved by killing the unknown with fire.
Again, animals don't attack for no reason unless they have a disease. You've wandered into their territory and represent a threat to them if they've attacked you.
The only people that know the Hive Mind is a vast intelligence capable of some emotions are the Blood Angels, maybe Tigirus and some radical Imperial scholars who got executed for daring to say Xenos might be intelligent.
2021/07/06 00:08:02
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.
I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.
2021/07/08 15:02:20
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Tycho wrote: I feel like this all started the second they began to actually flesh out the Heresy. Prior to that, CSM in 40k were very similar to their Fantasy counterparts. I remember reading a passage from waaayyyyyyyyy back in the day (no longer recall where it even came from - just that it was old enough to be before the Heresy was anything more than a few blurbs here and there) where a Rogue Trader vessel is boarded by CSMs. The Captain refuses to believe it because "CSM are just myth and rumor. They don't actually exist!" Then he sees them and simply the mere sight of them, the mere reality of 5 CSM actually existing and being in front of him .... was enough to drive him literally mad. On the spot. Right then and there.
I don't think this is accurate. For most places in the Imperium, it still is very much a case of "What's a Chaos?". CSM only exist in rumour and hearsay, unless the people fighting them have already fought CSM like the forces posted around the Eye of Terror. And while the Regimental Standard is for fun, it's also accurate to how the Imperium would give information to AM troops. "The Heretic Astartes are rare and use outdated weapons or equipment, your trusty Lasgun and Bayonet will pierce their rusted and ruined armour with ease".
Spoiler:
Fast forward to 17million Horus Heresy novels later and every single one of the iconic 40k Chaos bad guys is essentially the super-human equivalent of a teenager with daddy issues. Naturally it was an unintended consequence, but it gets hard to take them seriously when every other line is "But father ...."
That's a massive oversimplification of events courtesy of 4chan. It wasn't just the Traitor Legions that had issues with the Emperor, it was a general fear amongst most Astartes that their time was coming to an end, resigned to inglorious death out in the nowhere of space or to become civilian administrators. The Loyalist Primarchs didn't all love the Emperor unconditionally, many had reservations or issues with Him because he was a terrible person. Hell, the original reason the Dark Angels didn't come to Terra was to wait and see who won before declaring for a side and even now it's still not clear what their motivations are.
Spoiler:
Because of the Heresy, Abbadon "The Warmaster of Chaos" is no longer this towering inferno of unkowable chaotic awesomeness - he's basically just a whiney brat trying to out-do his failed/absentee father at his own game. The way it's been executed makes a lot of them un-like-able and kills any empathy you might have had for them, while also removing a lot of the mystery that made them so interesting. They've moved from a Lovecraftian style mystery, to full-on Skeletor style Saturday morning bad guys. I am not as familiar with the Fantasy fluff, but as far as I know, there was never a similar treatment in their lore, so they were able to stay a little more "high-brow" for lack of a better term. It was inevitable that this feeling would eventually get carried over into their rules.
Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. CSM have been the punching bag mooks since BL started publishing and the only time they are even a real threat is in books where the CSM are the primary focus.
Everyone is always so quick to blame 30k for 40k's failings and honestly I'm kind of sick of it. 40k had problems with its setting before the Heresy book series and it sure has problems of its own making after.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/08 15:03:39
2021/07/08 16:35:59
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
Show me where? Read the books. What you're saying isn't even remotely accurate anymore. It used to be "What the hell is that!?" when Chaos showed up. Now it's "Oh no - Chaos is here!" It used to be that there were even a lot of IG units that didn't know about Chaos, and they would instantly be "sterilized" by the Inquisition if they found out. Now it's "Oh no! We're fighting Chaos again!?" The civilian population absolutely had no idea about Chaos. Now it seems like everyone is aware of the "Dark Gods" and no one seems to grapple with what "Demons" are when the show up, or who CSM are. What you are describing hasn't really been true since probably 3rd ed.
You mean like in the Dark Imperium books, the Dawn of Fire books, the Watchers of the Throne books, the Apocalypse tie in novel all of which clearly present the general Imperial populace as ignorant of Chaos and it comes as a supreme shock that CSM exist in such huge numbers or that the Imperium specifically lies and calls Daemons a species of Warp Xenos? Those books? Hell I could go further and talk about the Corpse Grinder Cults on Necromunda who's existence is actively repressed by Lord Helmawr. Or the Eightfold Harvest Lord who is a literal Daemon stalking the Underhive but nobody in the setting knows that.
Spoiler:
Not really no. The intricacies of what happened THEN don't really matter. In the current fluff, it ALWAYS gets distilled to "daddy issues". They didn't really carry that thread to the current times. They lost the subtle parts and kept the "but Dad!"
Which lore are you talking about here? I've got the CSM Codex in front of me and the only time anything close to a "daddy issue" is when the Emperor leaves the Great Crusade with no warning or explanation ar Ullanor. That wasn't even a "daddy issue" because the entire Crusade was shocked and afraid of why the Emperor left at the most vital moment in the Crusade's history.
2021/07/08 17:05:35
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
As specific examples, go read the Black Legion and Fabius Bile books. Then come back and seriously try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm wrong here. lol And those are books I actually LIKE (except for the third Bile book which just WAY over did the "wayward son" thing). They lost the subtlety of "What will we do when we are no longer needed?"which, arguably was NEVER a consistent through-line for anyone save a few Ultramarines and Papa Smurf, plus Big E occasionally chiming in, and kept only the part where most of the legions are essentially battling with abandonment issues. lol
The Black Legion series that specifically focuses on how Abbadon hates Horus and constantly calls him a failure? That's not "daddy issues" it's literally what happened in the Heresy. Horus overplayed his hand multiple times because like all the Primarchs he had a planet-sized ego that told him he could never lose.
As for Bile where the hell are the "daddy issues" there? Bile again has a huge ego that drives him to prove he's smarter than everyone else. The whole point of Bile at that point in his life is that refuses Chaos yet still serves its designs, denies the Gods yet is one of their greatest champions. It takes him getting outsmarted by multiple people for him to mellow and start playing the great game.
It's also not "daddy issues" if your genetic father is a massive prat who cares more about lounging around eating grapes than actually fighting the Imperium or who led half the Legions in rebellion against the Emperor and still lost because they placed more faith in Daemons and magic than his own sons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/08 17:07:55
2021/07/08 18:30:13
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
You realize that all of this is ... quite literally .... the definition of Daddy Issues right? And the Bile books - did you not read the last one? The one that was centered almost entirely on the through-line that Horus hates his "dad" and wants nothing to do with him and his failures, and how the entire book was pretty much about getting him to forcibly reunite with his estranged father in order to get him to "join Chaos"? lol
It really isn't. Father complex in psychology is a complex—a group of unconscious associations, or strong unconscious impulses—which specifically pertains to the image or archetype of the father. These impulses may be either positive (admiring and seeking out older father figures) or negative (distrusting or fearful). It's not a father complex when
The Chaos Legions aren't looking for the Primarchs to tell them what a good job they did at burning down the Imperium. They aren't seeking out father figures to relate to because they still have those figures, most just hate them for legitimate reasons like putting rage-inducing murder chips in their heads. The NL don't hate Curze because they have daddy issues, they hate him because everyone but Sanguinius hates him, Curze was quite possibly one of the worst people of all time. Hell, most of the Legions still actively work for their Primarchs and in some cases love them. The Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all still follow their Primarchs because they want to do so. It's only specific individuals that don't follow their Primarchs, Typhus and Bile being examples. Typhus doesn't follow Mortarion post-Heresy because Typhus is dedicated to Nurgle now, not his Legion. I still disagree that Bile has daddy issues because he was a prat to everyone before Fulgrim and is a prat now. Fulgrim didn't cause Bile to hate everything, the Blight and a collosal ego did.
The Legions hate Horus and his Legion pre-BL days because Horus was Warmaster and promised them the place in the Imperium they had fought for and deserved. He promised them victory, led them down the path of damnation, and then lost. If you told me we were going to win a sports tournament and then started telling me to take loads of steroids, then we lost, I'd be mad because you screwed me for nothing. That's not daddy issues.
Also - RE: books - I have read the Dark Imperium books - they - they don't support your opinion. Haven't read Dawn of Fire so can't speak to it really. But there will always be sections of the Imperium where people don't know about Chaos so you can find some examples (I can think of some stuff around the Tau - since they don't draw much of a warp Signature, and since the human colonies on the fringes where the Tau are tend to be very small - you don't have much "Chaos" happening anyway), but the point is, there was a time, when almost NOBODY knew about Chaos. There were even Space Marine Chapters, who did not actually know about Chaos . They just let it get too far out of the bag and now we have the cartoonification.
You can't expect the background to stay the same from 1st Edition when 40k wasn't even 40k. You can't have a faction in the game that nobody knows exists because then how would that faction be in the game. CSM are treated like punching bags yes absolutely but if Dan Abnett was writing about Marines from the Iron Warriors being readily known about by a Commisar in 1999, your point about "nobody should know who CSM are" is fairly rubbish.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/08 21:56:12
2021/07/09 00:38:39
Subject: Re:Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
It is 100% the short-hand, scifi version of daddy issues. In your example, am I your dad? No? Right. Not really the same is it?
No, it isn't, it's a trash meme made up by 4chan chuds who thought they were funny.
Horus was only the "father" of one Legion. Every other Traitor Legion didn't follow him because he was their gene-father.
Spoiler:
The problem is, CSM should be the most wild, diverse, and "out-there" group in the entire setting. But as of the third Bile book - I could write a line about "Our Father's failed legacies", and you could have almost ANY of the main CSM characters say it. The EXACT same line in the EXACT same way, and it would not feel out of character for them. This is the issue. 90% of them got boiled down to ... that. "You know how we hate our dads!? And you know that thing they ried to get us to do and failed at?And you know how we are super angry at them for leading us into Chaos? Well now we're gonna go do THE EXACT SAME THING! But it'll be different this time! We'll show those losers!"
That's not how CSM are presented. The NL hate Curze because he was just flat-out awful. Some Tsons saw hubris in Magnus's actions but most didn't. The DG love Mortarion because of Nurgle happy time. The Word Bearers worship Lorgar for enlightening them to the True Faith. The Iron Warriors don't really care. The World Eaters are too angry to care and now that they all serve Khorne they'll follow Angron regardless. The Emperor's Children just want to bask in Fulgrims beauty again because Slaanesh. Everyone hates Horus because he was a failure in their eyes, they didn't know the Gods' plan always for Horus to fail. Not a single Legion's goals are driven by "my gene-father didn't love me enough".
Spoiler:
It's just a slightly different take on needing their "dad's" approval and it's so old at this point. Sure, Bile was always a tool. But one of the reasons I liked him previously was because he really was different. The Heresy? What? No. Don't care. "Abbadon's Black Crusade?" Yeah. Whatevs. I'm good. Just gonna chill here in my sanctum and run a evil medical school. Thanks though. Unfortunately, they took him down the same path. In fact, Bile is actually worse now in this light. He absolutely WAS seeking his "dad's approval" in a way. So desperate to get the final Clone "correct". So desperate to bring back "The Old Fulgrim". Not unlike what he did to try and bring back the "Original Horus" - so now he's not too different form all the others. I'm not sure you read the books?
Bile made the clones because he saw the Primarchs as weak for falling to Chaos and thought that if they were uncorrupted by Daemons and Gods then the Traitors would have won the Heresy. Did you read the books?
Spoiler:
It's sad when the newer factions like the Crimson Slaughter are actually more interesting and less tiresome than the bad guys that helped spawn the franchise.
The Crimson Slaughter are interesting because they're new. That's it. They haven't been seen before and their lore is a new story. The Chaos Legions have been doing the same things since time began because the timeline doesn't move in 40k. The Dragonspears are more interesting than their founding Chapter, the Salamanders because the Dragonspears are new and have no stories about them yet.
Spoiler:
So .. I never once said it shouldn't have changed. Did you really read what I wrote? Seems like the general consensus is that it's fairly accurate. What I said was that the way in which it unfolded, inevitably led to what we have now. As far as "Having a faction no one knows about" again, I think you're misunderstanding me. Because we essentially had that in 1st and second. Since you seem to want to ascribe all issues to 4chan memes my guess is you started late fourth? Granted we can toss out ROgue Trader. The setting really starts with 2nd ed. And in second ed, they were truly a mysterious lovcraftian kind of enemy. Back then, if a Large Chaos ship suddenly appeared in orbit above a planet, it was cause for confusion and utter panic as the populace tried to work out what the thing even was. Just one weird ship was enough to cause it. Now, a ship appears above a planet and they know exactly what is, where it came from, the last known location, who is currently crewing it, and just about everything else. OF COURSE SOME people knew about Chaos. But they were a larger, scarier threat because of the big secret. SO secret that the Inquisition was willing to risk open war against the Space Wolves to keep it a secret. Now THAT is an enemy.
Who knows about the CSM, the general populace or the higher-ups with access to classified information? As for the events of Armageddon 1, the Inquisition tried to keep that under wraps because of the specific nature of who the enemy was. It wasn't some random mook Warband looking for supplies, it was Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters leading legions upon legions of Daemons. The Inquisition still mindwipes or purges as many people it can after an interaction with Daemons because of their insidious nature. Who cares if the Imperial forces beat a CSM Warband because as far as those forces know that's the only Warband they'll ever have to worry about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 00:39:30
2021/07/09 17:31:52
Subject: Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe?
No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.
What Chaos Lord is choosing the newly ascended rookie CSM as his Chosen though? They're going to choose the best fighters or those most loyal to them, coincidentally that will be the Warband veterans.
When Talos became leader of his Warband in the NL trilogy, he kept First Claw as his "Chosen". Honsou surrounded himself with the best killers under his command. The Chosen from Dark Vengeance are the former 1st Company of the Crimson Sabres.
So yeah, Chosen should absolutely be the "undivided" veteran unit.
