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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.

Yep, currently as I look across all the power armour options in 40k the ones that are most like how I would imagine chaos to be are the Deathwatch. Ironic they capture a disparate warband better than Chaos does.

I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options. All of these should get a god specific boon if equal to the sacred number (6/7/8/9) and as part of that number be able to take cult marines. However if you take cult marines you can only get that God boost if the marines match the god (no plague marines in a unit that wants to be eight strong and dedicated to Khorne). So option of X strong Veteran/Chosen unit to which you can add terminators, bikers, possessed, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (Berzerkers, Noise and plague marines - no rubrics though you should be a nifty tzentch boost to make up for that).

Mono god cult marine units go into elite slots unless your warlord is dedicated to a certain god in which case they become troops choices.

I would also shift regular tiny Marine gear into the list to show them with the spoils of recent war and the range of common heresy gear (so Whirlwinds, Flak Rhino's, landspeeders, etc.). A generic conversion sprue would give those models a new chaotic go at life.

I would love there to be the right choices and rules that reward thematic lists. Hell even one stereotype per legion. More than just a trait. So say Alpha Legion could be the GSC of the CSM world and could have allied Imperial Guard Detachments. Word bearers could add a CSM to lead a unit of cultists and have demon units as elite slots on the table at the beginning of the game. Red Corsairs could get the Brotherhood of Veterans Stratagem from the deathwatch to show off their former members using the skills from their previous lives. Iron Warriors get to add Imperial artillery options (or at least basilisks) and so on.

All of these designs GW's left behind a long time ago. Holy numbers occasionally are mentioned in the Daemons Codex and the 7used in many DG auras, but other than that they're dead as a concept for squad building.
Even Plague Marines that are sold in a Box of 7(!) only support rules for a squad of 5 or 10.

You also won't see any crossovers between Codizes aside from Cult units that are an outlier and might only be there as long as EC and WE aren't fleshed out. GW simply doesn't like that unfortunately, even Daemons are nowadays hard to ally with CSM and I wouldn't be surprised if any Cross Codex synergies are dead after a new CSM or Daemons Codex.

Plague Marines actually can be taken in squads of 7, at least you could. Maybe its different now.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.

That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
-Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
-Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.

Oooh that's sounds like a noice idea.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking about. You'd have a few different classes of troop. You could even have the current "Marine Minus" to represent the various scum that the Legions uplift to space marines with stolen geneseed and the like.

My own Word Bearers force is two big blobs of cultists, chosen, possessed, raptors, a some characters and a Hellbrute. I really like the fact that the vast majority of models are lowly cultists, and I'll ally in a bunch of demons. The Word Bearers are there as leaders and elites. (That said, this force is designed for GDF and I have no idea how it would work in 40K).

moreorless wrote:

I do also think the way GW defines the setting outside of the models themselves has shifted a lot, especially with 40K. Back in the day I think you could argue that in the 80's to at least the mid 90's the most important medium for that wasnt novels or detailed writing it was art, Chaos generally I think owes a lot of its style to the likes of Ian Miller, that kind of "Punk Bosch" style illustration. That really suited chaos being more of an unknown mystical threat rather than something that needed to be defined by character or some kind of direct plot.

I would say as well that despite GW's attempts to make 40K more dynamic really the basic setting was always one of grinning grimness, a setting of slow decline of knowledge and a grand uncaring universe not one were there was a very immediate threat of destruction. More of a Frank Herbert setting rather than a Tolkien one as in WFB.

Hit the nail on the head for that one. For myself and many of my peers we were drawn into 40k due to the artwork depicting a very bizarre but evocative setting. One you wanted to learn about but had enough sense to keep the mystery alive so it wasn't open kimono from the get go. Contrast that with the Horus Heresy which has been hugely popular but unfortunately takes away a lot of that mystery, especially when 40k becomes more and more dependent on what happened in 30k. So while we started with "slow decline" and uncaring universe the series is currently in a metamorphosis towards a setting where the future will be determined by the important characters. Something you'd expect out of a comic book or a D&D style game, which coincidentally are wildly popular at the moment.

Sure hope GW chasing trends doesn't bite it in the ass, but so far it's been great for business.

You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

Tyel wrote:
You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

That would be an improvement.

catbarf wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.

That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
-Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
-Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.

This ^^^^. Thank you Catbarf, for putting it into words better than me.

Crimson wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

That would be an improvement.

No, it wouldn't. Keep your Primaris out of my Chaos Space Marines!

Tyel wrote:
You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

They had an opportunity to make chaos intercessors with Bile and specifically chose not to and instead updated the existing CSM models, I think the door is closed there.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

They had an opportunity to make chaos intercessors with Bile and specifically chose not to and instead updated the existing CSM models, I think the door is closed there.

Never say never. They've overwritten or discontinued models an edition after releasing them before, and the pace of the release schedule has been accelerating.

 catbarf wrote:

Spoiler:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.

That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
-Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
-Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.

Exalted.

 StrayIight wrote:
Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.

So the Chosen are the HH veterans and all my Chaos Marines are just whomever happened to join in recent years?

No. Hell no!

I want my Chaos Marine army to be a Chaos Marine army, not "A handful of actual Chaos Marines + a bunch of Marines they picked up along the way".

 catbarf wrote:

-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy

I fundamentally reject this structure.

CSMs are not just 'basic renegades', nor should they be.

 Tyran wrote:
Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.

Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.

3rd Ed Necrons were dripping with Lovecraftian horror. That's what drew me to them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.

Agreed. Numbers 2 and 3 are likely. Vets will probably stick around, but go to 2CP like for Death Guard. Cacophony will probably be gone. Number 1 is "iffy" though. Gw's rules writers don't seem up on their own lore.

Orthon wrote:Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

They did for Death Guard. If they do for us it's all the more reason we need something else in the troops slot than TACs with spikes.

sisters of battle say Hi


but yeah cultists will lose obsec etc count on it. GW has with 9th edition been clearly trying to address the "scout problem" namely people using non power armor cheap units as their troops so that a space marine army was sometimes notable for a lack of space marines

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:
Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.

So the Chosen are the HH veterans and all my Chaos Marines are just whomever happened to join in recent years?

No. Hell no!

I want my Chaos Marine army to be a Chaos Marine army, not "A handful of actual Chaos Marines + a bunch of Marines they picked up along the way".

 catbarf wrote:

-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy

I fundamentally reject this structure.

CSMs are not just 'basic renegades', nor should they be.

I have a terrible feeling we'll end up arguing semantics here, but lets see if we can land somewhere constructive.

So in lore, we know that the 'CSM' faction, consists of both Veteran Astartes from the Heresy era, and before it, and also Astartes that have defected/been created post this time. Agreed?

I think all that's being argued is that both of our varieties are currently represented by a singular unit, and said unit is awful in comparison to the absolute greenest loyalist Marine.

It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.

I'm not sure how that hurts 'your guys'. Surely as they are now, all you have is head canon making them anything special - the rules certainly don't.

So on the subject of story wise, I just read a spoiler for how Charadon turns out if true the outcome is that...

 StrayIight wrote:
It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.

I disagree.

Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:
It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.

I disagree.

Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.

You have again gotten stuck on pointless semantic difference. Whether they're called 'chosen' or something else doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter if bigger and nastier ork boy is called 'skarboy' or 'beastsnagga.' There should be a big difference between noob CSM and ten-thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warrior. And that difference should be more than just some veteran skill. Veteran skill is what you give to an IG soldier who served for a decade and survived.

I dont know why people calls tacticals marines the greenest of the loyalist when by that point they have served décades as assault and devastator marines.
And time=/= better.

Chosen are a good baseline to represent both veteran and proper chosen Chaos marines with some veteran habilites/Chaos boons.

What the unit is exactly called does not Matter just as I can play my bullgryns using antbot models, the rules work just fine to represent them

BrianDavion wrote:
So on the subject of story wise, I just read a spoiler for how Charadon turns out if true the outcome is that...

Spoiler:

Typhus infects Metallica and thus the forge world is basicly "dead" and Belakor turns the home world of knight house raven into his personal deamon world

So a Chaos victory for once? Yay!
Admittedly Vigilus was more or less burned down and starved after the campaign, too. Yes, Abby left, but most people were dead, the water was contaminated and if I recall correctly they even moved the planet out of its orbit or something along the lines. I remember reading Vigilus 1 and thinking, well, why is Abby even bothering to attack, the planet is practically dead already

 Crimson wrote:
You have again gotten stuck on pointless semantic difference.

No I haven't, because what they are called should matter.

 Crimson wrote:
... like it doesn't matter if bigger and nastier ork boy is called 'skarboy' or 'beastsnagga.'

Yes it does. Skarboyz are something specific in the fluff. Beastsnaggas are something different. They are different things.

 Crimson wrote:
There should be a big difference between noob CSM and ten-thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warrior.

I agree, but not all thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warriors are Chosen. You do not become a Chosen by dint of being around when the HH occurred.

 Crimson wrote:
And that difference should be more than just some veteran skill.

Why? It's how it was done before, and it worked fine there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I haven't, because what they are called should matter.

Yes it does. Skarboyz are something specific in the fluff. Beastsnaggas are something different. They are different things.

This is you engaging in pointless semantics. It's the same basic concept. Rose by any other name and all that.

I agree, but not all thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warriors are Chosen. You do not become a Chosen by dint of being around when the HH occurred.

Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.

Why? It's how it was done before, and it worked fine there.

It was pathetic. Normal marine veterans with a century or two experience were better. A ten-thousand-year-old warp-fuelled veteran should be significantly better than some 150-year-old Ultra who fought couple of nids, and definitely not worse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:
It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.

I disagree.

Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.

Why would a bunch of Renegades have better equipment than actual Veterans of the Long War? They'd have less relics from the Heresy as well as less access to the Dark Mechanicus because of their lower standing. Renegades are the definition of the "warbands" that gw stuck all CSM as being represented by in the 4th edition codex and beyond.

 Crimson wrote:
Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.

No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.

No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.

Right. So they're veteran CSM, like first company loyalists are. Except with CSM there is potential to be insanely more experienced than a loyalist would. Now could there be some ten-millennia-old veteran CSM that have not earner the technical rank of chosen for some reason? Sure. But in game terms you could still represent those with the chosen profile. Getting bogged down to the fluff minutiae is pointless and counterproductive.

 Crimson wrote:

Right. So they're veteran CSM, like first company loyalists are. Except with CSM there is potential to be insanely more experienced than a loyalist would.

There's also the potential with CSM to be insanely less experienced because the boss really likes you on your first day. You could just tell really funny jokes and the Chaos Lord decides you're in his inner circle now. That's why making the comparison to Loyalist First Company is bad, because there's literally NO qualifications behind being a Chosen beyond "the boss picked you".

 Platuan4th wrote:

There's also the potential with CSM to be insanely less experienced because the boss really likes you on your first day. That's why making the comparison to Loyalist First Company is bad, because there's literally NO qualifications behind being a Chosen beyond "the boss picked you".

And if your chosen happen to be scrubs that just bought beers to the chaos lord you can represent them with the normal CSM. The nomenclature doesn't matter, what matter's is that there are proper mechanical representations for both noob CSM and millennia-old warp-powered monstrosities.

What Chaos Lord is choosing the newly ascended rookie CSM as his Chosen though? They're going to choose the best fighters or those most loyal to them, coincidentally that will be the Warband veterans.
When Talos became leader of his Warband in the NL trilogy, he kept First Claw as his "Chosen". Honsou surrounded himself with the best killers under his command. The Chosen from Dark Vengeance are the former 1st Company of the Crimson Sabres.
So yeah, Chosen should absolutely be the "undivided" veteran unit.