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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Warhammer Fantasy:

-Chaos takes normal human vikings and transforms them into giant 10-foot behemoths of muscle
-Greatest champion is currently a demigod riding around on a giant three-headed dragon, one of the most powerful single models in the entire game
-Greatest champion's grand plan successfully destroyed the world, plunged the universe into a millennia of total Chaos dominance
-Daemons are a threat to even elite units
-has dedicated, unique army lists to every god
-Subfactions within every race follow Chaos

Warhammer 40k

-Chaos takes already hyper-powerful space marines and transforms them into massively shittier space marines
-Greatest champion is a sad kylo ren melon-fether who carries around sempai's super-special powerfist even though this incredible relic is just a normal fething chainfist you can take on any space marine sergeant
-Greatest champion's grand plan was an excuse to release a whole new range of loyalist marine miniatures
-Daemons are the cheapest, shittiest, most worthless chaff imaginable
-Most gods share single army lists but with fun restrictions so you cant run them together without hamstringing yourself
-Only works on human mortals, basically everyone else just has blanket total immunity as an afterthought, human mortal followers are so incredibly gakky that they don't even have rules for them in the game every battle is such a foregone conclusion that they will lose.

Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 17:44:00


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




As a chaos space marine player I ask this question to myself every day...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






A byproduct of nuking the Old World. Archaon winning set the precedent for Chaos being a threat and then when it came to a whole new timeline for AoS, GW could continue with that precedent without destroying the setting they made. The Mortal Realms are a huge canvas for GW to play with that has almost no ties to WHFB. Each Grand Alliance isn't a flat faction, and they all hate each other as much as they hate the other alliances and each one is a real threat to the others.
The Aeldari aren't a threat because they're a dying race trapped in specific locations like Commoragh or the Craftworlds, they can only do so much before they have to pull back. The Aelves in AoS live in all the Realms and we've seen events like in Broken Realms where Morathi went from background mention to literal God.
The big events in AoS (Sigmar's invasion, the Soul Wars, the Broken Realms, etc.) all result in real consequences for the factions in-universe, such as the breaking of the dominion of Chaos, the creation of the Night Haunt and Bonereapers, and the loss of Anvilgard. 40k doesn't have that because of the way the factions work, it's the Imperium vs everyone else. Everyone takes chunks out of the Imperium constantly but the Imperium can never lose like Sigmar did and return thousands of years later ready to retake its lost holdings.
Chaos can't win because if it did the setting would be over just like the Old World.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 18:26:56


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

This was something I was thinking just this morning. Why I like Fantasy Chaos so much but I dislike his 40k version?

And thats easy.

Because in Fantasy Chaos was metal. They were a constant threat. They WON. Twice, in Fantasy and in AoS. And the "good" guys are ACTUALLY on the back foot.

In 40K is the absolute contrary. Chaos LOST. Since the horus heresy they have been scrambling to make a reall dent in the Imperium. The Imperium in 40k is this monolothic and all powerfull entity that no other faction can really fight agaisnt. Should the Imperium put all of his military might agaisnt something, they will always win. And even then, if they lose, they are just losing a couple planets of the millions they have. It doesnt matter if they try to put Chaos as this big threat with the destruction of Cadia. In 40K, Chaos is more context than individual: The biggest problem with chaos are chaos storms and daemons incursions that happen "naturally".

The Empire in Fantasy was just a human state among many others, with a physical space agaisnt the hordes of chaos, beastmen, etc... with only his strenght and the one of his allies (that had their own amount of problems, dwarfs with skavens and greenskins, kislev, bretonnia, etc...) to face agaisnt this horde that yeah, was beaten back a couple of times, but they really felt strong. A real threat.


Also, giga-chad viking warriors in full plate > Emo space marines that follow giant manchildren with father related traumas.
Chaos Warriors were this looming presence of giant plated demigods of battle, most of them fought silently, the darth vaders of the setting, fighting what was basically a holy war because it was their culture. Heretic Space Marines are an all colorfull bunch of jokers that can't suth the feth up about their gods or their motivations.

And all of this was true before Age of Sigmar or the End Times. Fantasy chaos has always been better than 40k chaos.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/03 18:34:22


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I think with AoS Chaos as well you can tell more stories than in 40k.
With 40k you're basically trapped into "this Warband was part of X Legion/Chapter until Y happened and now they're Chaos" or "these are Renegades and Heretics, they exist to die".
With AoS you can do way more. We've had a Khorne Lord who is the brother of a Stormcast that repents and closes a portal to the Realm of Chaos by sacrificing himself. There was a grand host of Nurglites led by a knightly order with their very own Lady of the Lake. GW has shown multiple facets of Slaanesh worshipers with the recent updates.
In AoS I can field a Chaos army and have not a single model be a Warrior of Chaos or Daemon. With 40k you can't really do that.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Because they don't have their 9th dex yet?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





PenitentJake wrote:
Because they don't have their 9th dex yet?


I think this is 1 part rules with a dash of lore as well. GW has done well in shifting the focus on chaos being the big bad. back when I started in 5th edition it felt like Tyranids had kinda stolen the "most threatening faction" title.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





They're probably more powerful than in fantasy..... The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore. Order can make major victories, but chaos will always be a constant. Mortal empires are not.

And chaos is a beatstick because it needs to be in order to give the imperial factions, which sell more, an opponent that can fulfill the fantasy for space marines to destroy things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 18:54:43


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 the_scotsman wrote:

-Chaos takes already hyper-powerful space marines and transforms them into massively shittier space marines
-Greatest champion is a sad kylo ren melon-fether who carries around sempai's super-special powerfist even though this incredible relic is just a normal fething chainfist you can take on any space marine sergeant
-Greatest champion's grand plan was an excuse to release a whole new range of loyalist marine miniatures


I may not always agree with you, scotsman, but I swear I'll never stop loving your way with words.


That aside, are you sure it's specifically a Chaos problem and not a Marine problem? I ask because there seems to be a constant trend of, for example, mass-produced Imperial weapons being significantly better than Xeno weapons that are supposed to represent the peak of technological prowess.

In fact, I'm sure I recall you yourself giving example of Xeno weapons that become magically better when given to an Imperium character.

I say this because I think it represents a core problem in that GW don't seem to want any foe to outshine the heroes, regardless of how powerful or advanced they're supposed to be.

Chaos are just the most noticeable example because they're basically evil Marines and so have near-identical troops as well as sharing many vehicles with Marines. Thus, you can make direct juxtapositions and clearly see the differences in what Chaos units get (or, more commonly, don't get) in comparison to their Marine counterparts.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

Because space marines.

While they are a core part of 40k, and part of the reason for its success, they are so popular they now have such a outsized influence on the setting that they occupy a position as the "protagonist " faction, in the way that no one in the Old World, or even The Mortal Relms, really does. The empire of sigmar, or even the stormcast eternals, dont have that same position as default "Good Guys".

This changes the dynamics of other factions, as the existence of a protagonist implies a antagonist. Thus, Chaos, the natural Bad Guy faction, must play that role, and be forced to never really win ( which stops them from appearing menacing). Xenos and other non marine imperial factions are reduced to sideline roles, speed bumps to show off the marines skill or establish the threat of chaos.


I mean the above purely in terms of lore rather than tabletop, by the way

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




At least the tabletop matches the lore...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Because there is a profitable power fantasy that can be sold to young persons in 40k and not so in AoS. Fantasy Warhammer has always been more....................mature than 40k. The empire in AoS is far less marty stu.

As long as the space marine (and by extension...loyalist imperial players) power fantasy remains a large financial incentive, chaos is going to suck. Which it has for a very very very long time. Demons interestingly have actually placed high in a few editions. Chaos marines have only placed high with a heavy heavy soup mixture. But is all a tabletob view.

It is even worse in the narrative. That is where bolter porn kicks into high gear and chaos becomes much of what all non imperial factions are (but to a greater degree).....a punching bag.
Now, it has been a while since Ive read Wrath of Magnus campaign books or the Fall of Cadia but chaos has actually done quite a bit in the lore of recent years. The Fenris system is ravaged with only the chapter planet being left somewhat intact (but corrupted). And Chaos broke Cadia (much to the dismay of imperial players) and split the galaxy. That is pretty severe blow. But all of it is gloss over because of the over reaching power fantasy that is the Imperium is handed victory after victory and even when they lose, its never a straight up fight. Its always *chaos : "you may have defeated me now, heroes....but soon my real aim will be witnessed".

Simply put, for the setting to have any cred, the Empire needs to start taking straight up loss's. And that cant happen and maintain the cash cow.

AoS does not have problem. Slowly, over the past year I have been selling off my sizeable chaos armies after 10+ years of playing. I just cant take the constant dumping on by GW. I am making the shift to AoS overall simply because the above problems do not exist. I wont be missing loyalist marines one bit. And yes, you can have my stuff.... for a price of course .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 19:55:10


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

I think it's been said here already. Space marines are a the main faction in 40k and they're overly popular. This means they get all the good stuff. In WHFB empire were the main good guys but there was never a real massively overly popular faction like with marines.

Secondly WHFB died when chaos won and WHFB wasnt doing the best. GW would never take such a risk with 40k when it made them so much money.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

A.T. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.
Was that really shown, though?

It's sorta like when Tyranids eat a formerly unnamed and unknown chapter-it's SUPPOSED to be a big loss to the Imperium, but we outsiders don't really feel it, because we never had any attachment to them.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Because 40K is a power fantasy for Space Marine players, and Chaos Marines are their cartoon villain.

I mean, better to be chaos, who at least get to be "The TRUE THREAT" in the narrative rather than the various Xenos who exist only for the Space Marines to incidentally beat up before "The TRUE THREAT" reveals itself and is then also beaten up.

I'm sure GW will do the same to AoS in time. They're obviously trying to replicate the Space Marine phenomenon with Stormcast, it hasn't quite worked yet but they'll keep trying.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
Was that really shown, though?
Cadia being blown up and the oldmarines being slowly phased out?

Yes, very much.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






A.T. wrote:
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

Immediately after Cadia happened and the Rift formed, the Custodes and SoS beat the Khorne invasion of Terra, Guilliman came back with thousands more Space Marines, then those same SM went around winning 70% of the battles they fought because all of the Chaos forces suddenly became super disorganised and scattered as soon as the Rift showed up. What product lines got killed off though?

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.

Until the Rift, Tyranids were actually a threat. Leviathan had come from beneath the Galatic Plane, invading Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Tempestus and even Segmentum Solar all at the same time. It started the Octarius War (still ongoing and is another Ork paradise like Armageddon), caused Inquisitor Kryptman to Exterminatus hundreds of valuable Imperial worlds to stop the feeding frenzy, attacked the T'au Empire, multiple Necron fiefdoms and nearly ended the Blood Angels and most of their Successors. Behemoth nearly destroyed Ultramar and now there's a Hive Fleet that has already adapted to be able to effectively fight Daemons.
The problem is Tyranids aren't a personable faction like CSM, Orks or Necrons so it's much more difficult to tell a story with them.
Ghazghkull was and sort of still is Ork Jesus, leading millions of Orks on a crusade to Ork Valhalla but the Orks stopped being a crisis threat after the War of the Beast.
At best we have the resurgent Necrons as the new end game faction but even then I'm not 100% sold on them like I was Tyranids.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 20:18:30


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

A.T. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.


That's fair.

Dark eldar are bad guys and aren't doing much. Our own dark city was being sucked up into slaaneshs donkey-cave. I think we now fight admech and necrons for Blackstone and sorta hold the rift in the city at bay. We aren't really looking to eliminate all other factions so much as enslave them and torture them and have a good time. We have no real likelihood of a complete dark eldar win but at least we have some fun while we can.

I think orks are mostly de-fanged.

Tyranids have done stuff in the lore but nothing too great for a while.

Genestealer cult are basically the guardsmen of the nids but probably a bit more dangerous. I generally see em as the expendable crap that destabilizes a world so the nids have an easier time.

I dunno what happened to necrons since they were re-made in 5th.

Tau are such a minor threat in the lore and probably exist as one of the many xenos empires that are taking over the imperium slowly but are too small to matter. I imagine hrud are another example but they would do them or the cthulu wanna-be's or enslavers.

I don't even know what eldar are these days. They aren't a threat to the imperium mostly.


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 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.


 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.
Indeed. They were utterly wiped out and failed to prevent Abaddon from achieving any of his meaningful goals, but did spoil his victory lap. Solid moral victory :p
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

A.T. wrote:
 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.


 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.
Indeed. They were utterly wiped out and failed to prevent Abaddon from achieving any of his meaningful goals, but did spoil his victory lap. Solid moral victory :p


Didn't they have to re-write chaos's mostly failed 13th black crusade before they made it out that he had some hidden aim he just pulled out of his ass? I tend not to follow the lore much anymore. WHFB had the lore I cared more about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 20:32:01


Join skavenblight today!

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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






A.T. wrote:
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.

Weird since Cadians just got an update kit and you can still buy most of, if not all, the Firstborn models. And in the background Cadians exist all over the place not just on Cadia. There are regiments on settled worlds, regiments on detachment, regiments who are used to train other newly raised regiments on other worlds. And of course GW can't and won't get rid of Firstborn until they're 100% sure they can replace the range without insane backlash.
   
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Annandale, VA

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift.


That's crazy, I bet that means the Imperium's having a hard time building new technologies or reinforcing their new Marines, right? No?

Okay, then surely that means Cadians are gone and the Astra Militarum are having to cobble together ersatz replacements for some of their best troops? Oh, Cadian training is already all over the Imperium and the loss of the planet doesn't actually mean much?

Maybe some of the forces caught on the other side are having trouble? Oh, the Scythes of the Emperor got wiped out! No wait they got Primaris reinforcements I guess it's all okay.

Hmm, kinda sounds like that half of the Imperium must have been pretty worthless if losing it has meant nothing to anybody and the Imperium is stronger than ever. I bet Guilliman's laughing all the way to the bank to cash the insurance check.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore.


GW can and regularly does invent super duper important planets out of whole cloth solely to be the site of a battle. Any faction can win those stories whenever the writers want and it doesn't matter one iota to the greater setting. Look at Vigilus, a planet that didn't exist and didn't matter before the campaign books, but the Imperium won because they (virtually) always do. Very exciting.

The Imperium regularly coming out as the victor- to the point where a Chaos win over a major warzone is supposed to be a huge upset to the setting despite having no tangible repercussions whatsoever- is purely writer fiat. It's not a necessity by any means.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/03 20:39:43


   
Made in gb
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 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Didn't they have to re-write chaos's mostly failed 13th black crusade before they made it out that he had some hidden aim he just pulled out of his ass? I tend not to follow the lore much anymore. WHFB had the lore I cared more about.

Not really, most of the Crusades had a defined goal anyway and it was the ones that were left vague that were added to/changed. The global campaign wasn't considered "canon" anyway.
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Only a guess…

GW wants to be Hasbro, but the main product line is a tongue in cheek joke on the arrogant overextension of empire and the colourful diversity that it assimilates or destroys. Chaos represents anything that might want to stand in the way of the expanse of said imperial logic. Trouble is… The contemporary world is similarly divided, increasingly so and the joke is too close to home.

GW doesn’t know what to do, so, chaos is second rate filler and the focus is on the tacticool über modern warfighter, brah.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 20:45:21


   
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 catbarf wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift.


That's crazy, I bet that means the Imperium's having a hard time building new technologies or reinforcing their new Marines, right? No?

Okay, then surely that means Cadians are gone and the Astra Militarum are having to cobble together ersatz replacements for some of their best troops? Oh, Cadian training is already all over the Imperium and the loss of the planet doesn't actually mean much?

Maybe some of the forces caught on the other side are having trouble? Oh, the Scythes of the Emperor got wiped out! No wait they got Primaris reinforcements I guess it's all okay.

Hmm, kinda sounds like that half of the Imperium must have been pretty worthless if losing it has meant nothing to anybody and the Imperium is stronger than ever. I bet Guilliman's laughing all the way to the bank to cash the insurance check.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore.


GW can and regularly does invent super duper important planets out of whole cloth solely to be the site of a battle. Any faction can win those stories whenever the writers want and it doesn't matter one iota to the greater setting. Look at Vigilus, a planet that didn't exist and didn't matter before the campaign books, but the Imperium won because they (virtually) always do. Very exciting.

The Imperium regularly coming out as the victor- to the point where a Chaos win over a major warzone is supposed to be a huge upset to the setting despite having no tangible repercussions whatsoever- is purely writer fiat. It's not a necessity by any means.
Amending Storm of Chaos, the 13th Black Crusade, and the End Times were all writer fiat and changed outcomes based on where they wanted the universe to go, not where it naturally would have went.... Which is why I've been against the current approach to the setting to begin with. Real tangible changes that erase entire factions, and even units, is OFF THE TABLE because they're not going to destroy anything unless there is a replacement (primaris). I can't say i'm the biggest fan of the way Battletech handles its lore, which does destroy entire factions.




If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?


Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th. Not sure what you mean by lesser known denizens of Cadia.
   
 
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