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 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.

Man, wait until you find out it's possible to permakill Hastur.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.

Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.

Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney

He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.

At least he didn't go out like super shredder from the 2nd mutant ninja turtles movie. I think avgn showed how pathetically the villains at the end of the 2nd movie died.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.

Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney

He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.

At least he didn't go out like super shredder from the 2nd mutant ninja turtles movie. I think avgn showed how pathetically the villains at the end of the 2nd movie died.

could be worse, least he didn't go out like megatron in TF3 ".. so Prime now that thats all dealt with let's talk peac...." *utterly out of character decapitation by Prime!*

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 vipoid wrote:

You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


*Temporarily, but still.

What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.

Have you ever woken up at 4am after hearing a noise in your house and in your mostly still asleep bumbling about to go see what it was you stood on a lego? That was the boat incident to Cthulhu.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 vipoid wrote:

You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


*Temporarily, but still.

What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.

Have you ever woken up at 4am after hearing a noise in your house and in your mostly still asleep bumbling about to go see what it was you stood on a lego? That was the boat incident to Cthulhu.

Well that and a long stairway.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.

Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney

He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.

I'm old enough to get it, I just felt it unnecessary to point out that ending was clearly influenced by Call of Cthulhu.

I feel like this all started the second they began to actually flesh out the Heresy. Prior to that, CSM in 40k were very similar to their Fantasy counterparts. I remember reading a passage from waaayyyyyyyyy back in the day (no longer recall where it even came from - just that it was old enough to be before the Heresy was anything more than a few blurbs here and there) where a Rogue Trader vessel is boarded by CSMs. The Captain refuses to believe it because "CSM are just myth and rumor. They don't actually exist!" Then he sees them and simply the mere sight of them, the mere reality of 5 CSM actually existing and being in front of him .... was enough to drive him literally mad. On the spot. Right then and there.

Fast forward to 17million Horus Heresy novels later and every single one of the iconic 40k Chaos bad guys is essentially the super-human equivalent of a teenager with daddy issues. Naturally it was an unintended consequence, but it gets hard to take them seriously when every other line is "But father ...."

Because of the Heresy, Abbadon "The Warmaster of Chaos" is no longer this towering inferno of unkowable chaotic awesomeness - he's basically just a whiney brat trying to out-do his failed/absentee father at his own game. The way it's been executed makes a lot of them un-like-able and kills any empathy you might have had for them, while also removing a lot of the mystery that made them so interesting. They've moved from a Lovecraftian style mystery, to full-on Skeletor style Saturday morning bad guys. I am not as familiar with the Fantasy fluff, but as far as I know, there was never a similar treatment in their lore, so they were able to stay a little more "high-brow" for lack of a better term. It was inevitable that this feeling would eventually get carried over into their rules.

I don't think this is accurate. For most places in the Imperium, it still is very much a case of "What's a Chaos?". CSM only exist in rumour and hearsay, unless the people fighting them have already fought CSM like the forces posted around the Eye of Terror. And while the Regimental Standard is for fun, it's also accurate to how the Imperium would give information to AM troops. "The Heretic Astartes are rare and use outdated weapons or equipment, your trusty Lasgun and Bayonet will pierce their rusted and ruined armour with ease".


That's a massive oversimplification of events courtesy of 4chan. It wasn't just the Traitor Legions that had issues with the Emperor, it was a general fear amongst most Astartes that their time was coming to an end, resigned to inglorious death out in the nowhere of space or to become civilian administrators. The Loyalist Primarchs didn't all love the Emperor unconditionally, many had reservations or issues with Him because he was a terrible person. Hell, the original reason the Dark Angels didn't come to Terra was to wait and see who won before declaring for a side and even now it's still not clear what their motivations are.


Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. CSM have been the punching bag mooks since BL started publishing and the only time they are even a real threat is in books where the CSM are the primary focus.

Everyone is always so quick to blame 30k for 40k's failings and honestly I'm kind of sick of it. 40k had problems with its setting before the Heresy book series and it sure has problems of its own making after.

 Gert wrote:
Hell, the original reason the Dark Angels didn't come to Terra was to wait and see who won before declaring for a side and even now it's still not clear what their motivations are.

Way back in 2nd ed, it was stated in both the Space Wolves Codex and Angels of Death Codex that while Russ wanted to rush ahead and get to the fight(not even so much because he was worried the Emperor would lose but more that he'd miss out on the glory), Johnson wanted to secure the planets along the route. The "wait and see" thing was added later as speculation as to why Johnson wanted to delay, but the original fluff was to further point out the differences between them(Russ' impetuous need to take action and glory vs Johnson's steady, methodical planning) and why they came to conflict not once, but twice.

I don't think this is accurate. For most places in the Imperium, it still is very much a case of "What's a Chaos?". CSM only exist in rumour and hearsay, unless the people fighting them have already fought CSM like the forces posted around the Eye of Terror. And while the Regimental Standard is for fun, it's also accurate to how the Imperium would give information to AM troops. "The Heretic Astartes are rare and use outdated weapons or equipment, your trusty Lasgun and Bayonet will pierce their rusted and ruined armour with ease".

Show me where? Read the books. What you're saying isn't even remotely accurate anymore. It used to be "What the hell is that!?" when Chaos showed up. Now it's "Oh no - Chaos is here!" It used to be that there were even a lot of IG units that didn't know about Chaos, and they would instantly be "sterilized" by the Inquisition if they found out. Now it's "Oh no! We're fighting Chaos again!?" The civilian population absolutely had no idea about Chaos. Now it seems like everyone is aware of the "Dark Gods" and no one seems to grapple with what "Demons" are when the show up, or who CSM are. What you are describing hasn't really been true since probably 3rd ed.

Obviously the secret was out after the fall of Cadia, but the lore damage was done well before that.

That's a massive oversimplification of events courtesy of 4chan ... SNIP

Not really no. The intricacies of what happened THEN don't really matter. In the current fluff, it ALWAYS gets distilled to "daddy issues". They didn't really carry that thread to the current times. They lost the subtle parts and kept the "but Dad!"

EDIT:

As specific examples, go read the Black Legion and Fabius Bile books. Then come back and seriously try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm wrong here. lol And those are books I actually LIKE (except for the third Bile book which just WAY over did the "wayward son" thing). They lost the subtlety of "What will we do when we are no longer needed?"which, arguably was NEVER a consistent through-line for anyone save a few Ultramarines and Papa Smurf, plus Big E occasionally chiming in, and kept only the part where most of the legions are essentially battling with abandonment issues. lol

Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. >snip<

You know there was a time before the internet yes? Second Ed Abbadon was a pretty bad dude. He became a cartoon later. 4Chan wasn't even a thing back then ...

Tycho wrote:

Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. >snip<

You know there was a time before the internet yes? Second Ed Abbadon was a pretty bad dude. He became a cartoon later. 4Chan wasn't even a thing back then ...

Agreed, I started when an internet foray depended on those free AOL discs in the mail. Back then Abbadon was the leader of the Chaos Space Marines, the guys you never want to run into. When I got back into 40k many years later I was surprised and a little confused why he was so heavily mocked online. Then I read his track record in the lore since then. Ouch.

Failbaddon is Failbaddon because he failed 12 times and got stabbed by an old woman in the 13th one.

Chaos has to fail over and over because of the way the setting is created. The Skeletor comparison is apt at this point. 40k is a setting designed to sell space marine miniatures, the story is just built in service of that, similar to the way that Sunday morning cartoons were built to sell advertising space and action figures.

I do think there is a point to be made re: all the HH novels dispelling most of the mystery about Chaos, too. That mystery covered for a lack of substance, and now that the mystery has been revealed, so is the lack of substance. Chaos is a lot scarier when it remains a bit mysterious and unexplained. Psychological probing of all the major chaos figures has not augmented their status.

Accordingly, the more fleshed out Chaos is, the less scary and the more banal. It's exactly like what happened with the White Walkers in Game of Thrones - they went from genuinely scary and unsettling in the early part of the series to Sunday morning cartoons by the end, because none of the reveals could live up to the mystery they replaced.

You mean like in the Dark Imperium books, the Dawn of Fire books, the Watchers of the Throne books, the Apocalypse tie in novel all of which clearly present the general Imperial populace as ignorant of Chaos and it comes as a supreme shock that CSM exist in such huge numbers or that the Imperium specifically lies and calls Daemons a species of Warp Xenos? Those books? Hell I could go further and talk about the Corpse Grinder Cults on Necromunda who's existence is actively repressed by Lord Helmawr. Or the Eightfold Harvest Lord who is a literal Daemon stalking the Underhive but nobody in the setting knows that.


Which lore are you talking about here? I've got the CSM Codex in front of me and the only time anything close to a "daddy issue" is when the Emperor leaves the Great Crusade with no warning or explanation ar Ullanor. That wasn't even a "daddy issue" because the entire Crusade was shocked and afraid of why the Emperor left at the most vital moment in the Crusade's history.

As Chaos got explored, it was defined as pretty much the "losers" faction, not only because they are the designated antagonists that lose a lot, but because Chaos was defined as weakness given power. I mean, it is falling to Chaos, and you do not fall upwards. Thus Chaos became inherently "weak", because all its characters are Chaos characters because of their character weaknesses. It may be more complex than daddy issues, but all Chaos Primarchs had deep flaws that led to their doom.

This pretty much stripped Chaos of any mysticism it may have.

Tycho wrote:

As specific examples, go read the Black Legion and Fabius Bile books. Then come back and seriously try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm wrong here. lol And those are books I actually LIKE (except for the third Bile book which just WAY over did the "wayward son" thing). They lost the subtlety of "What will we do when we are no longer needed?"which, arguably was NEVER a consistent through-line for anyone save a few Ultramarines and Papa Smurf, plus Big E occasionally chiming in, and kept only the part where most of the legions are essentially battling with abandonment issues. lol

The Black Legion series that specifically focuses on how Abbadon hates Horus and constantly calls him a failure? That's not "daddy issues" it's literally what happened in the Heresy. Horus overplayed his hand multiple times because like all the Primarchs he had a planet-sized ego that told him he could never lose.
As for Bile where the hell are the "daddy issues" there? Bile again has a huge ego that drives him to prove he's smarter than everyone else. The whole point of Bile at that point in his life is that refuses Chaos yet still serves its designs, denies the Gods yet is one of their greatest champions. It takes him getting outsmarted by multiple people for him to mellow and start playing the great game.

It's also not "daddy issues" if your genetic father is a massive prat who cares more about lounging around eating grapes than actually fighting the Imperium or who led half the Legions in rebellion against the Emperor and still lost because they placed more faith in Daemons and magic than his own sons.

I think the whole "lore issue" comes down to the book and writer in question.

Chris Wraight made the Lords of Silence seem like a force of nature. It didn't matter if it was loyalist marines, an entire planet of Imperial humans, or the Word Bearers, they just rolled right over it.

In the tale of Grendel's World, retold in several codexes, the Night Lords slaughter an entire Imperial world, only to leave it to be discovered later by a single frigate answering an old distress call. They find an entire world that was hunted down and killed, then marked with the symbols of the Eighth Legion so everyone can know who did it. When the world is resettled and the massacre relegated to a folktale, the Eighth Legion return seven thousand years later, and do the exact-same-thing, just so the Imperium knows that they can. Other codex depictions of the Eighth Legion follow this paradigm: terrible reavers from a distant past that appear in a system, slaughter populations, and steal what they want, whether it's armaments or geneseed from loyalist fortress monasteries. ADB's novels follow this as well, with Tenth Company single handily bringing down battleships, space stations, and even a single squad of Chosen killing a titan, and only to be brought down by a concerted effort by a Phoenix Lord and all the forces she could muster. And even then, she ended up stuck to the bottom of a dreadnought's foot like bloody bubblegum for her efforts, with the survivors of Tenth Company eventually realizing her fears of uniting the Legion to threaten her people in the end.

Meanwhile, whenever Guy Haley gets ahold of either Legion he turns either into blundering, addled, mustache twirlers. There's lots of BL books, it depends on which you read.

The real issue is the in-game rules for CSM: they don't feel like monsters from the distant past, armed with supernatural powers, ancient weapons, and millennia of experience anymore. They feel like inferior versions of loyalist marines, instead of previous editions when they felt like their terrible forebears. They can still work, but only with gamey buff stacking and combos, not as a true cohesive force. Death Guard have that again, and I hope the next CSM codex does the same for the other Legions.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The real issue is the in-game rules for CSM: they don't feel like monsters from the distant past, armed with supernatural powers, ancient weapons, and millennia of experience anymore. They feel like inferior versions of loyalist marines, instead of previous editions when they felt like their terrible forebears.

Pretty much sums up my experience. My introduction to CSM was 3rd / 4th and they were a force to be reckoned with on the tabletop. Their prowess seemed directly linked to their lore which as you summed up meant ancient warriors who appear from the warp with supernatural powers and/or ancient weapons. An abominable legend turned real. When I came back to the game I was surprised by how wimpy they had gotten when I started a CSM army. Too bad power balance is determined by which model line sells like hotcakes.

I fancy really boiling this down.

Bear with me, as I’m likely to wander off course.

In Fantasy, Chaos Warriors were terrifying opponents. All their stats were comfortably above average. They had better than average armour to boot. In short, in a battle of attrition they’d do pretty well.

And that was reflected in the background to boot. Chaos Warriors, let alone Chosen and Champions slaughter regular peeps. Their main weakness was their nature, and their lower numbers. Much like Orcs, but to a slightly lesser degree, taking out their leader would cause infighting which the Good Guys could capitalise on.

Their powers were Gods Given. They were literally swollen with borrowed power, so even a relative weakling in their previous life could become a Jason Voorhees type monstrosity.

40K? Their best warriors are Naughty Marines who in the modern day gain no in-game advantage over their Goody Two Shows brethren. They’ve not been swollen with power. They’ve just gone mad, dusty, kinky or manky. Which is…..really odd, when you think about it. Decades, centuries or even millennia of service to their Dark Masters and all they’ve got are outdated weapons and snazzier looking armour.

Basically, they’re Just Not Scary.

Now, in AoS we of course have Stormcast Eternals. For those well versed in the original chaos background (where the Gods are unable or unwilling to tell a beneficial gift from a detrimental one, so their servants were all over the shop in terms of deadliness), they’re Chaos Warriors created by a sane and considerate deity.

They’re a deadly but finite resource, and much of Sigmar’s tribulations stem from his foe’s attempts to prevent reforging. And of course the risks involved in reforging which can and does go horribly wrong on occasion. It also, by all accounts, really really hurts.

Yet Chaos Warriors remain fearsome, despite now having the same theoretical issue as Chaos Marines - equal and opposite numbers. Why? There’s just far, far more of them.

In the ongoing Fantasy setting, Chaos hasn’t just won, but won twice. They’re still the predominant threat to the Mortal Realms, but are facing varying degrees of opposition from pretty much everyone else.

Sure, Orcs aren’t going to make a formal pact with anyone but themselves, Gobbos and Ogres. But they’ve no qualms at all about taking the fight to Chaos because the fightin’ is much better there than the Good Guys.

Nagash and his Mortarchs? Nobody else can trust them, other than they’ll knack Chaos first if given the choice, and may even act in concert with Order or Destruction, one way or the other. Because Sigmar might well be a soul thief, but Chaos huffed and puffed and blew Nagash’s house down, so are higher up the list of ‘people owed a good kicking’.

Order? OK. Kinda nominally unified. Certainly more likely to stick to the word of the alliance, and often the spirit for now.

None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos, because it threatens all of them equally. Sure, Death might use a bit of cunning to divert a Chaos force to go knack someone else, but never a formal alliance. Certainly not one they’ve the slightest intention of sticking to.

Yet Chaos remains the central threat. Archaon must be stopped. Because all the time he and his forces are arseing around, it could be your City next. You can bargain with him or Chaos. You can’t reason with them.

Even with the other three Grand Alliances pitched against them? Chaos is still enjoying the upper hand.

Chaos in 40K? Just…..not so much. At all. They’re feeling background underpowered compared to Nids (they just keep coming), Imperium (functionally infinite resources and numbers), Necrons (another ever increasing threat). Yes they had a great victory with the Cicatrix Thingy…..but not a complete one. Again, they just seem to lack the numbers to properly consolidate.

None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos

Well... except (Broken Realms spoiler), of course

I'm sure Mannfred will find a way to ruin everything for everyone soon enough.

gw just flat out hasn't done 40k chaos justice since the Realm of Chaos books.

Plague Marines & Rubrics feel more like how chaos is portrayed in general. Berserkers do berserker things, so i feel they're closer to preAOS khornate worshippers. Noise Marines have a decent feel to them, but slannesh in 40k just seems kinda phoned in.

The real problems are with how they treat the other legions and renegades. Normal CSM(just Traitor, not chaos) should be a close approximation to loyal first born with some dishonorable tactics thrown in for rounding them out. Then kinda degenerate from there as they get more chaosy.

Rihgu wrote:

None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos

Well... except (Broken Realms spoiler)

Spoiler:

Lady Olynder

, of course

Only sort of, kinda, ish.

The Black Legion series that specifically focuses on how Abbadon hates Horus and constantly calls him a failure? That's not "daddy issues" it's literally what happened in the Heresy. Horus overplayed his hand multiple times because like all the Primarchs he had a planet-sized ego that told him he could never lose.
As for Bile where the hell are the "daddy issues" there? Bile again has a huge ego that drives him to prove he's smarter than everyone else. The whole point of Bile at that point in his life is that refuses Chaos yet still serves its designs, denies the Gods yet is one of their greatest champions. It takes him getting outsmarted by multiple people for him to mellow and start playing the great game.

It's also not "daddy issues" if your genetic father is a massive prat who cares more about lounging around eating grapes than actually fighting the Imperium or who led half the Legions in rebellion against the Emperor and still lost because they placed more faith in Daemons and magic than his own sons.

You realize that all of this is ... quite literally .... the definition of Daddy Issues right? And the Bile books - did you not read the last one? The one that was centered almost entirely on the through-line that Bile hates his "dad" and wants nothing to do with him and his failures, and how the entire book was pretty much about getting him to forcibly reunite with his estranged father in order to get him to "join Chaos"? lol

Also - RE: books - I have read the Dark Imperium books - they - they don't support your opinion. Haven't read Dawn of Fire so can't speak to it really. But there will always be sections of the Imperium where people don't know about Chaos so you can find some examples (I can think of some stuff around the Tau - since they don't draw much of a warp Signature, and since the human colonies on the fringes where the Tau are tend to be very small - you don't have much "Chaos" happening anyway), but the point is, there was a time, when almost NOBODY knew about Chaos. There were even Space Marine Chapters, who did not actually know about Chaos . They just let it get too far out of the bag and now we have the cartoonification.

gw just flat out hasn't done 40k chaos justice since the Realm of Chaos books.

Plague Marines & Rubrics feel more like how chaos is portrayed in general. Berserkers do berserker things, so i feel they're closer to preAOS khornate worshippers. Noise Marines have a decent feel to them, but slannesh in 40k just seems kinda phoned in.

The real problems are with how they treat the other legions and renegades. Normal CSM(just Traitor, not chaos) should be a close approximation to loyal first born with some dishonorable tactics thrown in for rounding them out. Then kinda degenerate from there as they get more chaosy.

That's funny. I never thought of it before, but the Rubrics do feel more like how the Chaos Warriors in Fantasy were portrayed. SIlent, unkowable killing machines form beyond. Not on the table top of course - there they just kind of ... deploy and die ... BUT IN THE BOOKS YOU SEE .... lol

I think Slaanesh is in a tough place. That's the one god where, if GW form "back then" could have seen how big they would be, and the limitations that would subsequently be placed on them RE: "Mature Themes", I don't know that they would have done Slaanesh.

Tycho wrote:

You realize that all of this is ... quite literally .... the definition of Daddy Issues right? And the Bile books - did you not read the last one? The one that was centered almost entirely on the through-line that Horus hates his "dad" and wants nothing to do with him and his failures, and how the entire book was pretty much about getting him to forcibly reunite with his estranged father in order to get him to "join Chaos"? lol

It really isn't. Father complex in psychology is a complex—a group of unconscious associations, or strong unconscious impulses—which specifically pertains to the image or archetype of the father. These impulses may be either positive (admiring and seeking out older father figures) or negative (distrusting or fearful). It's not a father complex when
The Chaos Legions aren't looking for the Primarchs to tell them what a good job they did at burning down the Imperium. They aren't seeking out father figures to relate to because they still have those figures, most just hate them for legitimate reasons like putting rage-inducing murder chips in their heads. The NL don't hate Curze because they have daddy issues, they hate him because everyone but Sanguinius hates him, Curze was quite possibly one of the worst people of all time. Hell, most of the Legions still actively work for their Primarchs and in some cases love them. The Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all still follow their Primarchs because they want to do so. It's only specific individuals that don't follow their Primarchs, Typhus and Bile being examples. Typhus doesn't follow Mortarion post-Heresy because Typhus is dedicated to Nurgle now, not his Legion. I still disagree that Bile has daddy issues because he was a prat to everyone before Fulgrim and is a prat now. Fulgrim didn't cause Bile to hate everything, the Blight and a collosal ego did.
The Legions hate Horus and his Legion pre-BL days because Horus was Warmaster and promised them the place in the Imperium they had fought for and deserved. He promised them victory, led them down the path of damnation, and then lost. If you told me we were going to win a sports tournament and then started telling me to take loads of steroids, then we lost, I'd be mad because you screwed me for nothing. That's not daddy issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Also - RE: books - I have read the Dark Imperium books - they - they don't support your opinion. Haven't read Dawn of Fire so can't speak to it really. But there will always be sections of the Imperium where people don't know about Chaos so you can find some examples (I can think of some stuff around the Tau - since they don't draw much of a warp Signature, and since the human colonies on the fringes where the Tau are tend to be very small - you don't have much "Chaos" happening anyway), but the point is, there was a time, when almost NOBODY knew about Chaos. There were even Space Marine Chapters, who did not actually know about Chaos . They just let it get too far out of the bag and now we have the cartoonification.

You can't expect the background to stay the same from 1st Edition when 40k wasn't even 40k. You can't have a faction in the game that nobody knows exists because then how would that faction be in the game. CSM are treated like punching bags yes absolutely but if Dan Abnett was writing about Marines from the Iron Warriors being readily known about by a Commisar in 1999, your point about "nobody should know who CSM are" is fairly rubbish.

Basically, the issue is that Chaos is portrayed like orcs and goblins are portrayed in other media.

They're there to be just deadly enough to be a credible threat but ultimately to lose and make the heroes (usually Space Marines) look even better.

Narratively, they come across as pests. Or orks. They come out in these great waaaaghs/black crusades, create some mayhem, eventually get beaten back, then crawl back into their holes.

The only difference is that orks have empires and worlds and whatnot that they defend. Chaos hides the bulk of its forces in the Eye of Terror where the Imperium cannot go. It gives a whole feeling of no matter how badly Chaos gets stomped in, they can't actually lose anything important.

Of course, if CSM's were mostly in realspace, the Imperium would probably destroy itself trying to annihilate them. Which might actually be a narratively interesting challenge for Guilliman if the return of a primarch hadn't been turned into Just Another Thing.

As for 40k vs. AoS, well, AoS doesn't have a single, overbearing faction strangling the IP the way 40k does. In 40k, everyone sucks compared to space marines, in every aspect of the hobby.

My theory is that Chaos in WFB was the space marine equivalent to WFB in that it was a personal favorite to someone up top. Therefore, GW pushed that out more, and made sure that it got its proper due. On top of that it tended to be a dual role between WFB and 40K somewhat. At one point they shared Daemons officially.(I know full well that unofficially that was always the case)

I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.

It really isn't. Father complex in psychology is a complex—a group of unconscious associations, or strong unconscious impulses—which specifically pertains to the image or archetype of the father. These impulses may be either positive (admiring and seeking out older father figures) or negative (distrusting or fearful). It's not a father complex when
The Chaos Legions aren't looking for the Primarchs to tell them what a good job they did at burning down the Imperium. They aren't seeking out father figures to relate to because they still have those figures, most just hate them for legitimate reasons like putting rage-inducing murder chips in their heads. The NL don't hate Curze because they have daddy issues, they hate him because everyone but Sanguinius hates him, Curze was quite possibly one of the worst people of all time. Hell, most of the Legions still actively work for their Primarchs and in some cases love them. The Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all still follow their Primarchs because they want to do so. It's only specific individuals that don't follow their Primarchs, Typhus and Bile being examples. Typhus doesn't follow Mortarion post-Heresy because Typhus is dedicated to Nurgle now, not his Legion. I still disagree that Bile has daddy issues because he was a prat to everyone before Fulgrim and is a prat now. Fulgrim didn't cause Bile to hate everything, the Blight and a collosal ego did.
The Legions hate Horus and his Legion pre-BL days because Horus was Warmaster and promised them the place in the Imperium they had fought for and deserved. He promised them victory, led them down the path of damnation, and then lost. If you told me we were going to win a sports tournament and then started telling me to take loads of steroids, then we lost, I'd be mad because you screwed me for nothing. That's not daddy issues.

It is 100% the short-hand, scifi version of daddy issues. In your example, am I your dad? No? Right. Not really the same is it?

The problem is, CSM should be the most wild, diverse, and "out-there" group in the entire setting. But as of the third Bile book - I could write a line about "Our Father's failed legacies", and you could have almost ANY of the main CSM characters say it. The EXACT same line in the EXACT same way, and it would not feel out of character for them. This is the issue. 90% of them got boiled down to ... that. "You know how we hate our dads!? And you know that thing they ried to get us to do and failed at?And you know how we are super angry at them for leading us into Chaos? Well now we're gonna go do THE EXACT SAME THING! But it'll be different this time! We'll show those losers!"

It's just a slightly different take on needing their "dad's" approval and it's so old at this point. Sure, Bile was always a tool. But one of the reasons I liked him previously was because he really was different. The Heresy? What? No. Don't care. "Abbadon's Black Crusade?" Yeah. Whatevs. I'm good. Just gonna chill here in my sanctum and run a evil medical school. Thanks though. Unfortunately, they took him down the same path. In fact, Bile is actually worse now in this light. He absolutely WAS seeking his "dad's approval" in a way. So desperate to get the final Clone "correct". So desperate to bring back "The Old Fulgrim". Not unlike what he did to try and bring back the "Original Horus" - so now he's not too different form all the others. I'm not sure you read the books?

Meanwhile, GW have managed to take Ultramarines, the blandest army of the blandest faction, and actually create unique and identifiable characters that stand out from one another and are identifiable and ... well ... fleshed out at all. Yet CSM have become largely cookie-cutter - Insert standard CSM trope here - characters.

It's sad when the newer factions like the Crimson Slaughter are actually more interesting and less tiresome than the bad guys that helped spawn the franchise.

You can't expect the background to stay the same from 1st Edition when 40k wasn't even 40k. You can't have a faction in the game that nobody knows exists because then how would that faction be in the game. CSM are treated like punching bags yes absolutely but if Dan Abnett was writing about Marines from the Iron Warriors being readily known about by a Commisar in 1999, your point about "nobody should know who CSM are" is fairly rubbish.

So .. I never once said it shouldn't have changed. Did you really read what I wrote? Seems like the general consensus is that it's fairly accurate. What I said was that the way in which it unfolded, inevitably led to what we have now. As far as "Having a faction no one knows about" again, I think you're misunderstanding me. Because we essentially had that in 1st and second. Since you seem to want to ascribe all issues to 4chan memes my guess is you started late fourth? Granted we can toss out ROgue Trader. The setting really starts with 2nd ed. And in second ed, they were truly a mysterious lovcraftian kind of enemy. Back then, if a Large Chaos ship suddenly appeared in orbit above a planet, it was cause for confusion and utter panic as the populace tried to work out what the thing even was. Just one weird ship was enough to cause it. Now, a ship appears above a planet and they know exactly what is, where it came from, the last known location, who is currently crewing it, and just about everything else. OF COURSE SOME people knew about Chaos. But they were a larger, scarier threat because of the big secret. SO secret that the Inquisition was willing to risk open war against the Space Wolves to keep it a secret. Now THAT is an enemy.

Now it's just "Oh hey guys. You here to blaze a path to Terra again? Ok. Welp, I'll let the Ultras know. Good luck. I'm sure you'll show 'em this time." Like I said, they unravelled it in such a way that the cartoonification was almost inevitable. GW struggles with the subtle, and the whole "Unknowable Beyond" thing really requires subtlety. If you grew up on bolter porn and 4Chan, I can see where you would legit struggle to understand how this could possibly work in a game, but it does. It's actually been done successfully many times. They just lost control of the reigns as the franchise got bigger and bigger and the needed more and more content to fill the need.

The 4Chan stuff was never the disease. It was a symptom. They wouldn't be so effective if they weren't darn near 100% accurate ...

I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.

Again, it's not that nobody knows them. It's that they shouldn't be so ho-hum common place. As I said - post-Cadia Chaos is pretty much out of the bag Imperium wide. But the damage was done well before that.