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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Looks like GW have updated the Ad Mech FAQ as mentioned yesterday:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/rjbd0JE30hNT8ibP.pdf

Fairly light nerfs overall, I think. Not sure the change of Enriched Rounds will make that much of a difference. The Ironstrider change probably will, but I still think there's a points cost issue with them.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Enriched rounds got the nerfs it needed, I think. No point in going overboard.


   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






The nerfs were appropriate. Hit all the worst outliers.

Lucius Skittari are still pretty durable, but not as bad. If you can hit them with D2 or ignore cover shooting they go down fairly easily now. Remember only one unit can get the transhuman per turn, so you should be able to plink chunks off of the other 1 or 2 squads, then charge the buffed squad and lock it in combat somehow.


Ballistari are still pretty damn good, but that wont change till they get a points hike. The nerf was what it needed to be. Got rid of the rerolls and the ability to ignore penalties on them. They are a fair bit undercosted compared to alot of 8th stuff, but most of the 9th edition stuff is.

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Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Enriched rounds got the nerfs it needed, I think. No point in going overboard.



That strat is still absurdly effective. I would've preferred the "affects vehicles" fix or just deleting it. The nerfed version is still dumb.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nerf is what everyone knew had to happen within days, maybe even hours, of release. There was no reason to wait two months for this, they literally just did what everyone pointed out as problematic immediately.

It's good they finally fixed it, but this is another example of GW's internal playtesting and balancing being totally broken. They need to get their house in order, any competent playtesting program would have caught something like enriched rounds.

I'm not saying the playtesters themselves are to blame, but the way GW uses them is clearly totally ineffective. I don't know if it's that they aren't having them test in useful ways, that they're ignoring the feedback, that they aren't getting the rules to them in the first place...whatever it is, GW desperately needs to sort things out, it's just embarrassing the way they keep dropping the ball again and again.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




yukishiro1 wrote:
Nerf is what everyone knew had to happen within days, maybe even hours, of release. There was no reason to wait two months for this, they literally just did what everyone pointed out as problematic immediately.

It's good they finally fixed it, but this is another example of GW's internal playtesting and balancing being totally broken. They need to get their house in order, any competent playtesting program would have caught something like enriched rounds.

I'm not saying the playtesters themselves are to blame, but the way GW uses them is clearly totally ineffective. I don't know if it's that they aren't having them test in useful ways, that they're ignoring the feedback, that they aren't getting the rules to them in the first place...whatever it is, GW desperately needs to sort things out, it's just embarrassing the way they keep dropping the ball again and again.
GW doesn't care about rules. If they did they would pay their writers more.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




And use paid playtesters, not use your playtesting program as free labor and a way to reward influencers. But if they won't even pay their actual rules writers a decent wage, they're obviously not going to pay playtesters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 18:03:29


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Eihnlazer wrote:
The nerfs were appropriate. Hit all the worst outliers.

Lucius Skittari are still pretty durable, but not as bad. If you can hit them with D2 or ignore cover shooting they go down fairly easily now. Remember only one unit can get the transhuman per turn, so you should be able to plink chunks off of the other 1 or 2 squads, then charge the buffed squad and lock it in combat somehow.


Ballistari are still pretty damn good, but that wont change till they get a points hike. The nerf was what it needed to be. Got rid of the rerolls and the ability to ignore penalties on them. They are a fair bit undercosted compared to alot of 8th stuff, but most of the 9th edition stuff is.


SoB heavy flamer rets can now wipe a unit with just the 4 heavy flamers and HT if I'm reading this right. Skitarri in cover get benefit of cover so shuts off +1 armor, Rets ignore that bonus so they don't get either plus +1.

Might be reading that wrong, would be cool if not.

2500pts
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Enriched rounds got the nerfs it needed, I think. No point in going overboard.



That strat is still absurdly effective. I would've preferred the "affects vehicles" fix or just deleting it. The nerfed version is still dumb.


Well, you go from 30 auto wounds to 20. But then you still have 20 hits to resolve, which will depend on the target, but will take 5/6s most often so another 3.3 to 6.6 wounds.

The bigger part of the nerf might be the 2CP. Admech lists have been clocking in at 7 to 8 CP, which doesn't give a lot of wiggle to keep transhuman up and this going.

Admech was upper 60s instead of 70s/80s so this will probably put them to low 60s

   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




ERJAK wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
The nerfs were appropriate. Hit all the worst outliers.

Lucius Skittari are still pretty durable, but not as bad. If you can hit them with D2 or ignore cover shooting they go down fairly easily now. Remember only one unit can get the transhuman per turn, so you should be able to plink chunks off of the other 1 or 2 squads, then charge the buffed squad and lock it in combat somehow.


Ballistari are still pretty damn good, but that wont change till they get a points hike. The nerf was what it needed to be. Got rid of the rerolls and the ability to ignore penalties on them. They are a fair bit undercosted compared to alot of 8th stuff, but most of the 9th edition stuff is.


SoB heavy flamer rets can now wipe a unit with just the 4 heavy flamers and HT if I'm reading this right. Skitarri in cover get benefit of cover so shuts off +1 armor, Rets ignore that bonus so they don't get either plus +1.

Might be reading that wrong, would be cool if not.


Solar Blessing now says:

‘Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is
allocated to a model with this dogma, unless that model is
receiving the benefits of Light Cover, add 1 to any armour saving
throw made against that attack.’

Righteous Judgment ( I assume this is what you were referring to, but I could well be wrong) says: Miraculous ability: While a friendly <ORDER> CORE or <ORDER> CHARACTER model is within Miracle range of this model, each time that model makes a ranged attack, the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.

So the model would still get the +1 bonus for Solar Blessing since it is not receiving the benefits of cover. I believe this is the standard wording for most "ignores cover" wording, but knowing GW I wouldnt be surprised to see there be several different wordings between all the various 8th/9th edition books.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





yukishiro1 wrote:
Nerf is what everyone knew had to happen within days, maybe even hours, of release. There was no reason to wait two months for this, they literally just did what everyone pointed out as problematic immediately.



I disagree. I want solid data before a change is taken, no knee jerk reactions.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well as long as the fixs don't force people in to rebuying entire armies or huge chunks of them it is okey. The kill errata are what is bad, specially when GW clearly does them on purpose to sell models, and then buy more models to replace them. Like selling a car you make in a such a way that it will bio degrade in 4-5 years.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




ERJAK wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
The nerfs were appropriate. Hit all the worst outliers.

Lucius Skittari are still pretty durable, but not as bad. If you can hit them with D2 or ignore cover shooting they go down fairly easily now. Remember only one unit can get the transhuman per turn, so you should be able to plink chunks off of the other 1 or 2 squads, then charge the buffed squad and lock it in combat somehow.


Ballistari are still pretty damn good, but that wont change till they get a points hike. The nerf was what it needed to be. Got rid of the rerolls and the ability to ignore penalties on them. They are a fair bit undercosted compared to alot of 8th stuff, but most of the 9th edition stuff is.


SoB heavy flamer rets can now wipe a unit with just the 4 heavy flamers and HT if I'm reading this right. Skitarri in cover get benefit of cover so shuts off +1 armor, Rets ignore that bonus so they don't get either plus +1.

Might be reading that wrong, would be cool if not.
They were already a counter-meta pick. Idk that this makes them that much better, but they are a good choice.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Didn't the last big even winner run dominions in transports joined by SoBs versions of purificators that didn't run 4 MM, but only 2 MM and 2 heavy flamers?

top players who know playtesters or are playtesters themself, often updated their armies before the updates are actually out for everyone else.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yeah. 5 Dominions in a Rhino joined by 5 Retributors w/2 MMs and 2 HFs.

Scout move takes the Rebributors forward as well. Nasty combo. 0% chance GW intended or even foresaw that.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Karol wrote:
Didn't the last big even winner run dominions in transports joined by SoBs versions of purificators that didn't run 4 MM, but only 2 MM and 2 heavy flamers?

top players who know playtesters or are playtesters themself, often updated their armies before the updates are actually out for everyone else.
That was another take on an earlier Sisters list that ran Heavy Flamers as it's only heavy weapon and hand flamer Seraphim. Which i wouldn't suggest, but is statted very well vs space elves and Skittari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 07:24:37


   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The nerfs are the right ones.

Losing CORE for the chickens means losing the 40% damage buff given by the marshall. Without it the chickens fall in line with other similarly costed damage sources. It was CORE that really made them shine.

We will surely see more Mars chickens, but that comes with a 3 CP tax in a faction which was CP starved even before these nerfs.

The nerf to enriched rounds is fine. Everyone claims that 20 auto wounds from the stratagem are still too many, but have you looked at the actual math on it? Without the stratagem, the vanguards inflict 10 auto wounds and 10 wounds on a T4 or T5 target for a total of 20 wounds. With the stratagem they inflict 20 auto wounds and 6,66 wounds, for a total of 26,6 wounds. 26,6/20 = 1,33 It is a damage increase of 33% for 2 CP on a unit... that's almost bad actually. The only thing that makes it good is that the unit you use it on is quite good, but honestly using the stratagem at 2 CP for 33% bonus damage is no longer a no brainer, it is actually a very niche situation.

On top of this, everyone is sleeping on the biggest nerf.
Acquisition at all cost. That stratagem was what enabled the infantry heavy lists. Admechs suffer terribly from morale, and they made it through that thanks to that (very OP) strat. Now it is both harder to use and only once per game.
Infantry builds have taken a HUGE blow with this nerf.

Expect Admech lists to completely change and focus more on flyers and infiltrators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 07:38:51


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 bullyboy wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Nerf is what everyone knew had to happen within days, maybe even hours, of release. There was no reason to wait two months for this, they literally just did what everyone pointed out as problematic immediately.



I disagree. I want solid data before a change is taken, no knee jerk reactions.


Both views here are correct. AdMech should have been noticeably strong before they put it to the printers, however, knowing precisely how some things might perform is harder to judge than one might think. i.e. Dark Angels transhuman - how many people here would have let that stand?

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Anyone who knew what they wrote as normal for DE. I can imagine that a person who thought that the DE rules are acceptable would also think the DA rules are okey. And in way they weren't even wrong, DA didn't break meta, just like non of the marine armies did, even if all non marine players claim that somehow marines are the killers of 9th.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Karol wrote:
Anyone who knew what they wrote as normal for DE. I can imagine that a person who thought that the DE rules are acceptable would also think the DA rules are okey. And in way they weren't even wrong, DA didn't break meta, just like non of the marine armies did, even if all non marine players claim that somehow marines are the killers of 9th.


... thats his point Karol, when dark angels first released the response was "ohh my god, they're going to be insanely OP"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some adjustments require data. Knowing that 1CP for a wound a 4+ to hit roll wasn't ok does not require data.

Moreover, my point was that this is data that the playtesting should have provided GW. Even if GW lacks understanding of its own game to the degree to which they honestly thought a 1CP wound on a 4+ to hit strat was acceptable, this is what playtesting exists to tell them. That it made it to release shows the playtesting system is fundamentally broken.
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't think DA should have transhuman always on. Not because it is too good but because how it makes all the other terminators just bad in comparison. It also could have been too good and compared to many 8th ed books or early 9th they might be a bit too good. It's just that the later books overshadow them because they are even worse.

It's a bad design choice that luckily weren't too bad in the end but I would think that is more of a lucky coincidence than anything GW knew wouldn't become a huge problem.

It is stupid though that not even the heaviest weapons on 400+pt Knights or other superheavies kills more than one DA terminator a turn despite the weapon itself being larger than the whole terminator squad. Not even a fully buffed 20 man Skitarii squad with the mortal wound strat do more than halve the squad. Just the defensive math on that unit should have given GW pause before they printed it. Could have been so bad.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Some adjustments require data. Knowing that 1CP for a wound a 4+ to hit roll wasn't ok does not require data.

Moreover, my point was that this is data that the playtesting should have provided GW. Even if GW lacks understanding of its own game to the degree to which they honestly thought a 1CP wound on a 4+ to hit strat was acceptable, this is what playtesting exists to tell them. That it made it to release shows the playtesting system is fundamentally broken.


People often note that the playtesters never saw D3+3 lascannons. It's entirely likely that the feedback in the last round was that D6 lascannons are just not useful. GW took that feedback and made a change that accompanied with other buffs could be problematic, but at that point there wasn't time for another round of testing.

It could work like that. Or it could just be a shitshow. I don't know.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
Some adjustments require data. Knowing that 1CP for a wound a 4+ to hit roll wasn't ok does not require data.

Moreover, my point was that this is data that the playtesting should have provided GW. Even if GW lacks understanding of its own game to the degree to which they honestly thought a 1CP wound on a 4+ to hit strat was acceptable, this is what playtesting exists to tell them. That it made it to release shows the playtesting system is fundamentally broken.


The playtesting also might've been fine - for whatever they tested. We know that things have been changed/added after the playtest step on occasion. Or not provided to the testers to begin with. We also know that sometimes the info given by the testers is simply ignored.
So is it a problem with the testers?
A problem with some other step?

We're also assuming it's a problem....
It looks like a problem from our side of things. But, despite the PR speak of "unintended interactions, blah blah, blah" aimed at mollifying the customers a bit, is it really a problem from GWs pov? Since they keep doing it, I don't think so.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I didn't say it was a problem with the testers, I said it was a problem with the playtesting program. Not the same thing at all. I refuse to believe the playtesters playtested Enriched Rounds and gave it a thumbs up - if so, they should be replaced, but I don't believe for a minute that's what happened.

The reason GW's playtesting program is broken isn't that they have bad testers, it's that they don't take the program seriously. They don't pay people to test systematically, instead they rely on unpaid labor that influencers trade to them in return for the perk of getting early access to what the new rules are going to be. It's about access and brand management, not about actually releasing good products. It may work for GW in terms of offering a free way to keep influencers on side, but it results in broken releases like DE and Ad Mech. It doesn't work for creating a better game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 21:00:08


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
I didn't say it was a problem with the testers, I said it was a problem with the playtesting program. Not the same thing at all. I refuse to believe the playtesters playtested Enriched Rounds and gave it a thumbs up - if so, they should be replaced, but I don't believe for a minute that's what happened.

The reason GW's playtesting program is broken isn't that they have bad testers, it's that they don't take the program seriously. They don't pay people to test systematically, instead they rely on unpaid labor that influencers trade to them in return for the perk of getting early access to what the new rules are going to be. It's about access and brand management, not about actually releasing good products. It may work for GW in terms of offering a free way to keep influencers on side, but it results in broken releases like DE and Ad Mech. It doesn't work for creating a better game.


And if they did pay the testers a living wage to test systematically? They could STILL not provide pieces to be tested, make changes, or ignore the report for whatever reason.

You're correct. This ISN'T about releasing good products or a better game. It's about selling the most product.
Talk/hype about the playtest process? These oh-so-predictable FAQs/Errata? That's PR smoke & mirrors. And the masses lap it up.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





ccs wrote:
That's PR smoke & mirrors. And the masses lap it up.


You'd say the same exact thing regardless of whatever circumstances applied. Why would GW wish to stop selling Vanguard and Ballistari? And for whatever reason you propose why would they reach that conclusion faster with these very expensive kits than they have with any other army prior?

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Spoiler:
Spoletta wrote:
The nerfs are the right ones.

Losing CORE for the chickens means losing the 40% damage buff given by the marshall. Without it the chickens fall in line with other similarly costed damage sources. It was CORE that really made them shine.

We will surely see more Mars chickens, but that comes with a 3 CP tax in a faction which was CP starved even before these nerfs.

The nerf to enriched rounds is fine. Everyone claims that 20 auto wounds from the stratagem are still too many, but have you looked at the actual math on it? Without the stratagem, the vanguards inflict 10 auto wounds and 10 wounds on a T4 or T5 target for a total of 20 wounds. With the stratagem they inflict 20 auto wounds and 6,66 wounds, for a total of 26,6 wounds. 26,6/20 = 1,33 It is a damage increase of 33% for 2 CP on a unit... that's almost bad actually. The only thing that makes it good is that the unit you use it on is quite good, but honestly using the stratagem at 2 CP for 33% bonus damage is no longer a no brainer, it is actually a very niche situation.

On top of this, everyone is sleeping on the biggest nerf.
Acquisition at all cost. That stratagem was what enabled the infantry heavy lists. Admechs suffer terribly from morale, and they made it through that thanks to that (very OP) strat. Now it is both harder to use and only once per game.
Infantry builds have taken a HUGE blow with this nerf.

Expect Admech lists to completely change and focus more on flyers and infiltrators.


Honestly dont know what else id spend 2CP for if not a 33% increase in performance..

In regards to playtesting, guys over at TTT for example have said explicitly that they feed the obvious OPness back to GW. GW choses not to listen or do a half arsed nerf which results in even worse results..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
That's PR smoke & mirrors. And the masses lap it up.


You'd say the same exact thing regardless of whatever circumstances applied. Why would GW wish to stop selling Vanguard and Ballistari? And for whatever reason you propose why would they reach that conclusion faster with these very expensive kits than they have with any other army prior?


Well they could come to the conclusion if the impact of ad mecha made the sales of their other model lines tanks, if those changes had an impact heavy enough to outweight the gain from selling Vanguard and Ballistari, they very much could decide to do that . The question is if GW does market research on a non year+ basis to track such changes.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

The issue often seems to be twofold:

1) GW will listen to playtester feedback and make changes, but then those changes are not playtested or things like points costs are not readjusted to take into account the change. This is essentially what happened to Raiders and Dark Lances. They got feedback that d6 damage basically removed DL's as a viable weapon option, so they changed it. But then this change was not given back to the testers for further feedback and the points stayed the same.

2) Inconsistency in vision and design goals between books. Again, using d6 damage as an example; admech and DE were obviously designed by people receptive to this complaint. When testers gave feedback to GW about the state of Necron anti-tank and how so much of it was highly random, they were told "that's what the command re-roll stratagem is for."

The first point also applies to the Necrons in the opposite direction too. Apparently they were far stronger in testing, with certain units being very different from their final datasheets too. I think it was Brian of TTTitans who bought and started to add a load of Necron units to his army on the expectation that the stuff he playtested was going to be more or less final, only to get the finished codex and find they were all severely curtailed in power or completely different. Interestingy Boxy of Vanguard Tactics also mentioned in a WinterSEO batrep recently that in playtesting the Sisters book, you were still able to gain Miracle Dice from successful morale tests like the old codex. This was changed before release though with no additional testing or feedback.
   
 
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