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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 Bosskelot wrote:
The issue often seems to be twofold:

1) GW will listen to playtester feedback and make changes, but then those changes are not playtested or things like points costs are not readjusted to take into account the change. This is essentially what happened to Raiders and Dark Lances. They got feedback that d6 damage basically removed DL's as a viable weapon option, so they changed it. But then this change was not given back to the testers for further feedback and the points stayed the same.

2) Inconsistency in vision and design goals between books. Again, using d6 damage as an example; admech and DE were obviously designed by people receptive to this complaint. When testers gave feedback to GW about the state of Necron anti-tank and how so much of it was highly random, they were told "that's what the command re-roll stratagem is for."

The first point also applies to the Necrons in the opposite direction too. Apparently they were far stronger in testing, with certain units being very different from their final datasheets too. I think it was Brian of TTTitans who bought and started to add a load of Necron units to his army on the expectation that the stuff he playtested was going to be more or less final, only to get the finished codex and find they were all severely curtailed in power or completely different. Interestingy Boxy of Vanguard Tactics also mentioned in a WinterSEO batrep recently that in playtesting the Sisters book, you were still able to gain Miracle Dice from successful morale tests like the old codex. This was changed before release though with no additional testing or feedback.


Lawrence from TTT has alluded a few times to specific elements of codex's being overpowered and feedback provided specifically on that prior to release (Drukhari Raiders being too cheap, especially with Dark Lances), and some elements of the admech as well - he has also mentioned that Drukhari and Ad Mech won't actually feel that OP once the next batch of codex's are released, powerful but not OP... Which is bonkers.

So, what is happening, for me it's some of these options:

The play testing base is not that coherent when finding problems - so Lawrence spots it and maybe others don't - doubt that though

Playtesters are deliberately not giving honest feedback for reasons - highly unlikely, however I was very worried at one point when certain playtesters were announced as they certainly had favourite factions they want to be very powerful. This is obvious to spot if someone at GW is actually analysing the testers feedback though to ensure they are reliable and valid - potentially unlikely.

Or finally, GW just doesn't listen, and/or does the playtesting so late in the day, they decide to constantly roll the dice, not change the rules and see if the playtesters were wrong - hoping they are. However, your point above about the significant changes to Necrons is interesting. I think they potentially went too strong with both SM and Necrons on playtesting feedback and now are not acting as much. Both necrons and SM need some serious work to bring them up to par now whilst bringing Sisters, Ad Mech and Drukhari down a peg again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 08:49:13


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Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine




If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


Agreed, but they have now nuked the balance. They either give them the power, and a high points cost, slowly decreasing those points as new codex's come out, or they have to release all codex's on release day of the edition, moving completely away from printed codex's to allow for easy updates when new models are released to add the data sheets. This is the only way to avoid these balance/codex creep problems every edition... I mean, is anyone actually not bored of this constant mess the editions get themselves into?

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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Bosskelot wrote:
The issue often seems to be twofold:

1) GW will listen to playtester feedback and make changes, but then those changes are not playtested or things like points costs are not readjusted to take into account the change. This is essentially what happened to Raiders and Dark Lances. They got feedback that d6 damage basically removed DL's as a viable weapon option, so they changed it. But then this change was not given back to the testers for further feedback and the points stayed the same.


But that is not what the playtesters said. They playtested the dark lances as d6 weapons, and still gave the feedback that DE are a very powerful army. Same with some other options that they did not name. And then they got to see the codex, which the testers though was strong, with even more upgraded rules. Testers saying something is strong, and then it being buffed isn't further, is not the same as them saying something is weak and seeing it updated to a fixed level. And it was more then just the DL that the testers were suprised about.

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Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

So, what is happening, for me it's some of these options:

The play testing base is not that coherent when finding problems - so Lawrence spots it and maybe others don't - doubt that though

Playtesters are deliberately not giving honest feedback for reasons - highly unlikely, however I was very worried at one point when certain playtesters were announced as they certainly had favourite factions they want to be very powerful. This is obvious to spot if someone at GW is actually analysing the testers feedback though to ensure they are reliable and valid - potentially unlikely.

Or finally, GW just doesn't listen, and/or does the playtesting so late in the day, they decide to constantly roll the dice, not change the rules and see if the playtesters were wrong - hoping they are.


Something I'd be very curious to hear about from playtesters is how 2020 affected the whole process. With many countries locked down, how can they possibly try some of the new rules on the table unless two playtesters live in the same home already?

Sure they can pick out potentially broken rules interactions, but it's difficult to back that up with data. How much does GW's feedback process rely on games being played before they change rules?
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


Agreed, but they have now nuked the balance. They either give them the power, and a high points cost, slowly decreasing those points as new codex's come out, or they have to release all codex's on release day of the edition, moving completely away from printed codex's to allow for easy updates when new models are released to add the data sheets. This is the only way to avoid these balance/codex creep problems every edition... I mean, is anyone actually not bored of this constant mess the editions get themselves into?


The current process isn't that bad. Sure, sometimes you get 1 or 2 months of a dex dominating until it gets fixed, but post Admech nerf the meta is probably very healthy.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
That's PR smoke & mirrors. And the masses lap it up.


You'd say the same exact thing regardless of whatever circumstances applied. Why would GW wish to stop selling Vanguard and Ballistari? And for whatever reason you propose why would they reach that conclusion faster with these very expensive kits than they have with any other army prior?


Well they could come to the conclusion if the impact of ad mecha made the sales of their other model lines tanks, if those changes had an impact heavy enough to outweight the gain from selling Vanguard and Ballistari, they very much could decide to do that . The question is if GW does market research on a non year+ basis to track such changes.


And how exactly would they come to that conclusion if everything is selling out constantly and they need 13 new machines?

   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





 endlesswaltz123 wrote:


Lawrence from TTT has alluded a few times to specific elements of codex's being overpowered and feedback provided specifically on that prior to release (Drukhari Raiders being too cheap, especially with Dark Lances), and some elements of the admech as well - he has also mentioned that Drukhari and Ad Mech won't actually feel that OP once the next batch of codex's are released, powerful but not OP... Which is bonkers.


I suspect that since it is Tsons & Grey Knights next - Both heavily psychic armies, pure AdMech & Drukhari might struggle a bit as most sub-factions do not really have any way to mitigate psychic powers. therefore effectivly reducing the power of these two codexes a bit (assuming of course that they will be on par with other 9th ed codexes like Sisters or Orks, it will almost certainly have a knock on effect on the win-rates for AdMech).

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
I mean... there's a massive void in the armour part of most armies (between op cheap and superheavy detachment)

   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Spoletta wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


Agreed, but they have now nuked the balance. They either give them the power, and a high points cost, slowly decreasing those points as new codex's come out, or they have to release all codex's on release day of the edition, moving completely away from printed codex's to allow for easy updates when new models are released to add the data sheets. This is the only way to avoid these balance/codex creep problems every edition... I mean, is anyone actually not bored of this constant mess the editions get themselves into?


The current process isn't that bad. Sure, sometimes you get 1 or 2 months of a dex dominating until it gets fixed, but post Admech nerf the meta is probably very healthy.


SM and Necrons desperately need a FAQ and a point rebalance to bring them up to par with recent releases... It is about 1 year into the edition and the first two codex's are lagging behind, the only reason they still compete is because of the amount of 8th edition codex's knocking about.

Or, the recent releases need more nerfing. The current process does not work, you actually don't want a flavour of the month (quite literally) being a whole new faction.

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Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Can someone explain to me what Space Marines problem actually is? They seem to be doing fine for the most part. People have just figured out to play against them, from what I can tell.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
.... They did.
Have you seen any mech armies in 9th outside of cheap Eldar skimmers with an invul save?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 16:07:33


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ordana wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
.... They did.
Have you seen any mech armies in 9th outside of cheap Eldar skimmers with an invul save?


When's the last time you saw Bladeguard or Eradicators in a list?

   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
.... They did.
Have you seen any mech armies in 9th outside of cheap Eldar skimmers with an invul save?


When's the last time you saw Bladeguard or Eradicators in a list?
Have you seen SM top event lists?

Bladeguard everywhere; UM successor lists *love* them in paticular. Eradicators are still in a bit of a funny place - Their presence means they aren't always needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 16:50:30


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Lammia wrote:
Have you seen SM top event lists?


Yes they're mostly White Scars with a bunch of VV and twin Volkite contemptors, or BA with VV, SG, and twin Volkite contemptors, or DA with termies and attack bikes.

I don't think I've seen UM anywhere lately and we're a far cry from the old 3x5 BGV lists and no one is taking more than a handful of Eradicators if any at all.

BGV will only appear in foot based melee centric armies like SW or BT. Eradicators will often get replaced with Contemptors, Suppessors, and ABs.


   
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Ordana wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
.... They did.
Have you seen any mech armies in 9th outside of cheap Eldar skimmers with an invul save?
Most mech armies are quite meh at the moment, to the point I'm not sure that is the main reason why we aren't seeing them is specifically Space Marines.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Have you seen SM top event lists?


Yes they're mostly White Scars with a bunch of VV and twin Volkite contemptors, or BA with VV, SG, and twin Volkite contemptors, or DA with termies and attack bikes.

I don't think I've seen UM anywhere lately and we're a far cry from the old 3x5 BGV lists and no one is taking more than a handful of Eradicators if any at all.

BGV will only appear in foot based melee centric armies like SW or BT. Eradicators will often get replaced with Contemptors, Suppessors, and ABs.

They aren't a 3×5 choice, no. But a single unit is a useful melee anvil unit in any chapter.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Lammia wrote:
They aren't a 3×5 choice, no. But a single unit is a useful melee anvil unit in any chapter.


Agree, but they're no longer near being a meta warping selection that people build to deal with.

   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Mostly what Marines need are some points shuffling. They have some insanely undercosted units that get stupid amounts of buffs because of Core and then they have non-Core units that are priced into irrelevance.

Nobody can actually realistically look at the basic rules of the Marine book and find things to complain about from a power perspective. In fact their recent points increases are because they have a few units and interactions that are TOO powerful and obnoxious and so the brute force band-aid fix is to slap points increases on them. This is not a case like the Necron Codex which realistically needs a more fundamental revisiting (although points cost changes will again band-aid fix most of the issues... sort of)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 19:40:36


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
If Necrons and especially Space Marines had originally come out at AdMech/Dark Eldar levels of power the reaction would have been insane.


At the time the reactions were insane. People completely lost their gak over bladeguard and eradicators, claiming they'd singularly invalidated any kind of mech army etc etc.
.... They did.
Have you seen any mech armies in 9th outside of cheap Eldar skimmers with an invul save?
Most mech armies are quite meh at the moment, to the point I'm not sure that is the main reason why we aren't seeing them is specifically Space Marines.
No, now its also D3+3 damage Dark lances helping to ensure no tanks see the field unless they are cheap and have an invul.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Lammia wrote:
Can someone explain to me what Space Marines problem actually is? They seem to be doing fine for the most part. People have just figured out to play against them, from what I can tell.


IMO the main problem is that when someone slaps together a space marine army based on indomitus box, they end up with a vastly more powerful army than anyone else with the same skill level who does the same for their faction.

Despite their base power being so high, you cannot vastly improve it with strategy or tactics, so they end up in a weird place of being too powerful for casual and too weak for competitive.

In the meantime, ad mech is pretty much the exact opposite. Their base power is only average, but you could crank it to insane levels when you brought specific units and did the right thing.

Earth is not flat
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We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





The most broken AdMech unit that just got taken more and more of as the meta progressed was just the basic-ass troops. Maybe a casual player doesn't have the chicken walkers but "lots of skitarii" is something that you might just bring because they're cool. I know I was excited for the possibility of skitarii horde before I realized how extreme they were.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






At least none of the players I know had multiple units of 20 just flying around.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Jidmah wrote:
At least none of the players I know had multiple units of 20 just flying around.

The ones who would have been able to adapt to that quickly were the people who actually played "Codex: Skitarii" rather than "Mechanicus Superfriends" during the introduction of the faction but trended towards MSU rather than full units.

I had, simply from playing Skitarii at launch:
5x 10 model units of Rangers with 3x Arquebi
4x 10 model units of Vanguard(2 with 3x Calivers and 2 with 3x Arc Rifles)

It's a real cluster right now trying to sort out how I want to reorganize things because of this stupid Special Weapon reorganization(which even at 20 models doesn't let you have triplicates of anything!) that seems to be based upon building off of people coming from Kill Team.

It's a real disheartening thing tbh.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I honestly don't think it's enough. They've basically just removed the blatantly broken things, but the units themselves are still incredibly points efficient.

Compare Ballistarii to Eldar War Walkers, or 2 Guard Sentinels. A War Walker is 80 points with 2 bright lances, while 2 Sentinels with lascannons is 100 points.

Alternatively, compare Skitarii Vanguard or Rangers to Tempestus Scions, Tau Breachers, or Eldar Guardians.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Jarms48 wrote:
... but the units themselves are still incredibly points efficient.
Is that a bad thing?

Jarms48 wrote:
Compare Ballistarii to Eldar War Walkers, or 2 Guard Sentinels.
You mean compare the unit form the new Codex to two units from old Codices?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 02:21:00


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Is that a bad thing?


Yes, these changes have done nothing to prevent Skitarii spam. Ideally Skitarii should have remained at 9 points per model, minimum.

You mean compare the unit form the new Codex to two units from old Codices?


Fair enough, but they are its closest thematic counterparts. Lets switch to other 9th edition problem AT units that have already received points increases. Eradicators and Raiders, the former went up to 45 points per model (50 if you want the Heavy Melta Rifle or 55 if you want the Multi-Melta) and the latter up to 95.

So while Eradicators do at least have the advantage of retaining core, they still have to get within 12 inch range to get the full benefit of their weapons whilst Ballistarii can do their maximum damage to anything simply within their range. Eliminators also have a minimum buy-in cost of 135 points, before upgrades, that's almost 2 Ballistarii.

Ballistarii ideally should either go up 5 points base or have their lascannon upgrade cost increased to 15.






This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 03:50:51


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

lol, you're barking up the wrong tree if you "want to prevent Skitarii spam".

They were a relatively elite army to start with. People(that weren't actually Skitarii players to start with, go figure!) kept complaining that they should be a horde army so now they're a horde army.

If they had actually spent some time to work on things?

An actual attempt would have been made to make real, viable roles for each type of Skitarii--and "veteran" versions would have been possible from the outset.
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Kanluwen wrote:
...If they had actually spent some time to work on things?....


Would they have remembered they made like twenty AdMech Forge World kits and then forgot to do 8e or 9e rules for any of them?

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