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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Central Valley, California

Greetings,


I played my Admech for the first time tonight, a 500 point match against ultramarines.

In two games nearly my entire army got shot off the board the bottom of turn 1.
I had to go first each game, and while there was cover terrain, not much was really tall and fully
blocking line of sight. Most were about 4" high platforms, some low walls and such.

The first match I was overly aggressive, being used to the more resilient death guard. I scored 3 VP for
a secondary objectives, and then as I said was shot off the board.
Everything of his was hidden both matches. It was move, or turtle on my part.

My 2nd match, I played more cautiously and bounced between terrain. In one instance he saw just the barrel of
a rifle and targeted the whole squad with a lot of shots. Apparently that is legal. The other cover simply didn't help much. I assaulted his
HQ the top of turn 2, in a suicidal attempt to have some fun. I lost my breachers (3) in one volley both games. My cavalry where essentially all that was left when I charged his HQ, along with Cawl.

My question -- in even small 40K matches, 500 or 1,000 points, should there still be fully blocked fire lanes?
My opponent was fine with the symmetrical setup, but his Contempter Dread's firepower was unbelievably devastating.
The shop we played at didn't have much tall terrain, but I'm wondering -- should there be really high and considerable
blocking terrain even in smaller matches? OR is this just how 40K goes, and the terrain isn't always super thick and dense?

Would someone post a pic of what terrain should look like on a Combat Patrol level?

Thanks so much. I am mainly an AoS player at the moment, and I must say, tonight was not a satisfying experience -- win or lose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 04:59:40


~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Warcry * LoTR SBG * Dust 1947 * Warmaster 10mm * 40K & Kill Team * Flames of '47 * Reign in Hell
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

The BRB p. 269 has examples how a battlefield at 44x30 should look like. There should be sufficient LOS blocking terrain that an army can hide behind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 05:07:35


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 p5freak wrote:
The BRB p. 269 has examples how a battlefield at 44x30 should look like. There should be sufficient LOS blocking terrain that an army can hide behind.
I'd argue that battlefields shouldn't be 44x30.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






IIRC units actually have to see the model they are firing at, not just the tip of a weapon.
But yes, there should always be LoS blocking terrain on the board even at small-scale games.
If you don't have a BRB then you absolutely should get one since it sounds like your opponent is taking advantage of your lack of rules knowledge for an in game advantage i.e. being a prat.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




If you can shoot without problems from one side of the table to the other something about the terrain placement went wrong.
However, if your opponent has enough firepower to destroy the whole army in one go it sounds like miscommunication about what kind of game you want to play (I.e. tournament list vs. normal list).
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

My 2nd match, I played more cautiously and bounced between terrain. In one instance he saw just the barrel of
a rifle and targeted the whole squad with a lot of shots. Apparently that is legal.

By RAW, yes but that is total crap and since this was not a tournament match, especially against a rookie player, they should have not have done that.

My question -- in even small 40K matches, 500 or 1,000 points, should there still be fully blocked fire lanes?
My opponent was fine with the symmetrical setup, but his Contempter Dread's firepower was unbelievably devastating.
The shop we played at didn't have much tall terrain, but I'm wondering -- should there be really high and considerable
blocking terrain even in smaller matches? OR is this just how 40K goes, and the terrain isn't always super thick and dense?


Yes you still need line of sight blocking terrain even in small matches as shooting is still a huge part of the game. One problem I see is him using a Contempter Dread in a small game against a new player which is really not fair.

One solution would be to give pieces of terrain you have on the board to Obscuring trait. Normally the trait only works on terrain 5" or higher but if you are lacking in terrain that high you and your opponent can house rule it to work on any piece of terrain.
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Contemptor dread and a major named character at 500pts? Yeah, find a more reasonable partner. The choice of company seems the main problem here. That and insist on house ruling targeting and line of sight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
The BRB p. 269 has examples how a battlefield at 44x30 should look like. There should be sufficient LOS blocking terrain that an army can hide behind.
I'd argue that battlefields shouldn't be 44x30.

I know, right? I can’t wait to get into a stable place… building a proper 4x8 is task one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/21 06:31:19


   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

OP's talking about 500 points games. 44x30 is perfectly fine for that format, probably even too big actually since it's half the table that is mostly used for 2000 points games. 44x30 is perfect for 750-1000 points games.


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Big models in small games skew the results. If you're just starting out I'd suggest agreeing some ground rules with your opponent before the game and talk about the sort of game you want to have. I'd also suggest that you discuss the intent of actions to avoid similar situations to the one you had where somebody shoots at the gun barrel of your model- for example when you make a move agree with your opponent whether a model can be seen from the likely positions they can move to. I would also look critically at the terrain setup and arrange it to limit long fire lanes across portions of the board and as others have suggested agree any necessary house rules to make sure some of the terrain counts as obscuring regardless of its height.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Blackie wrote:
OP's talking about 500 points games. 44x30 is perfectly fine for that format, probably even too big actually since it's half the table that is mostly used for 2000 points games. 44x30 is perfect for 750-1000 points games.


Very much up to taste, that. Personally, I feel playing with smaller than 4' x 4' tables is a mistake if you want anything beyond one pub corner brawl from the game. At 500, maybe, but that is already stretching the current system's applicability while at 1k the 30" table is woefully inadequate and constrained. If it's the only thing you can fit in your apartment, sure, having fun is key, but if the option is there to have a wider field, it produces better games and should always be used in my opinion.

As for the OP's question, the game is a framework for you to do as you like. Vary it up. Best times are had with plentiful terrain, asymmetric setups and interesting pieces of scenery. This should include fully blocking terrain as well as lighter barricades and movement inhibitors like craters and forests. From both gameplay and diegetic points of view, terrain should always impact decision making. Force people to move to get their shots lined up and keep the fight dynamic.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
IIRC units actually have to see the model they are firing at, not just the tip of a weapon.


You do not recall correctly. LoS is drawn to any part of the model, including gun barrels and aerials. It's a stupid rule but it is how the game works.

As for the OP's issues, I think the first thing to mention is the game is not really designed for 500 point games without some extra work on the part of the players. Big, powerful models like Contemptors and Cawl really skew things at such small points levels. 40k is a game with very high lethality. That can be a problem at 2k points but at 500 it can mean your entire army effectively gets wiped by certain combos. Terrain can help, but only to an extent. I'd advise discussing things with your opponent beforehand and probably agreeing some limits to what you both take. It's really easy to end up in situations where you have no counters to something like a Contemptor when you're only playing 500 points because it's so easy for your opponent to remove that 1 reasonable counter you were able to bring, for example.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Its not very elegant, but yes, you almost certainly want some polystyrene breeze-blocks cutting up the table so everything can't shoot everything else unless you intentionally facilitate it.

But it might be more useful to know more about the lists.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






my general rule for 'for fun' games include:

1 - you should build in some kind of damage-mitigation factor for first turn. If neither player is bringing a drop-dead only melee charge list, then 'night fight' (limiting range to 12" on the first turn) works well for this.

2 - no individual model should be over 1/4 of your points total, whatever that is. large units have a built-in drawback that they lose extra casualties to morale, but single models like the contemptor or a big beefy named character really just become what the whole game is about.

3 - if the game seems to be swinging hard in one player's favor, just bring back one of that player's units as reinforcements. Or, to make sure the game goes to full length, allow for each player to bring back a 100pts or less unit once per game and just have them walk on to their board edge.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

My 2nd match, I played more cautiously and bounced between terrain. In one instance he saw just the barrel of
a rifle and targeted the whole squad with a lot of shots. Apparently that is legal.


"My intention is to make sure you can't see my models - can you verify that you can't see them?"

If he has room to move laterally then you need to consider those angles of attack to stay safe. I would suggest getting a laser line tool as a helpful aid to check your vulnerabilities.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Greetings,


I played my Admech for the first time tonight, a 500 point match against ultramarines.

In two games nearly my entire army got shot off the board the bottom of turn 1.
I had to go first each game, and while there was cover terrain, not much was really tall and fully
blocking line of sight. Most were about 4" high platforms, some low walls and such.

The first match I was overly aggressive, being used to the more resilient death guard. I scored 3 VP for
a secondary objectives, and then as I said was shot off the board.
Everything of his was hidden both matches. It was move, or turtle on my part.

My 2nd match, I played more cautiously and bounced between terrain. In one instance he saw just the barrel of
a rifle and targeted the whole squad with a lot of shots. Apparently that is legal. The other cover simply didn't help much. I assaulted his
HQ the top of turn 2, in a suicidal attempt to have some fun. I lost my breachers (3) in one volley both games. My cavalry where essentially all that was left when I charged his HQ, along with Cawl.

My question -- in even small 40K matches, 500 or 1,000 points, should there still be fully blocked fire lanes?
My opponent was fine with the symmetrical setup, but his Contempter Dread's firepower was unbelievably devastating.
The shop we played at didn't have much tall terrain, but I'm wondering -- should there be really high and considerable
blocking terrain even in smaller matches? OR is this just how 40K goes, and the terrain isn't always super thick and dense?

Would someone post a pic of what terrain should look like on a Combat Patrol level?

Thanks so much. I am mainly an AoS player at the moment, and I must say, tonight was not a satisfying experience -- win or lose.



Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Strg Alt wrote:

Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.


GW swiss cheese is exactly the reason they made obscuring a thing.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.


GW swiss cheese is exactly the reason they made obscuring a thing.


Mhm ok and what advice do you have for this new player regarding the 'sighting a whole unit based on a single gun barrel' issue he seems to have had? D'you want to tell them 'welp sorry bud, gotta walk around the table and make sure you've got your gun barrels hidden, you actually asked for that unit to get wiped off the table in one shot really, that's all part of the highly skill-expressive mental chess contest that is competitive warhammer 40,000' or should I?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 14:21:28


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.


GW swiss cheese is exactly the reason they made obscuring a thing.


Mhm ok and what advice do you have for this new player regarding the 'sighting a whole unit based on a single gun barrel' issue he seems to have had? D'you want to tell them 'welp sorry bud, gotta walk around the table and make sure you've got your gun barrels hidden, you actually asked for that unit to get wiped off the table in one shot really, that's all part of the highly skill-expressive mental chess contest that is competitive warhammer 40,000' or should I?


Was going to jump in and say it depends if it was being considered a "competitive" game or not, as if it was just general for funsies/learning game, most reasonable people would say "just for next time know some people will use that and count it as targetable but you're new and it's only combat patrol so don't worry".
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






I personally never use the tip of guns/flags/antennas to draw LoS, its completely ridiculous. I only consider an enemy in LoS if i can see its "vital part".

Still, i've taken the habit of moving my dudes with intent. I'll say "i move my Raptors behind this ruin so theyre hidden from you" and then if my opponent actually sees the tip of a chainsword, i remember them that i was intending on hiding them.

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.


GW swiss cheese is exactly the reason they made obscuring a thing.


Mhm ok and what advice do you have for this new player regarding the 'sighting a whole unit based on a single gun barrel' issue he seems to have had? D'you want to tell them 'welp sorry bud, gotta walk around the table and make sure you've got your gun barrels hidden, you actually asked for that unit to get wiped off the table in one shot really, that's all part of the highly skill-expressive mental chess contest that is competitive warhammer 40,000' or should I?


Was going to jump in and say it depends if it was being considered a "competitive" game or not, as if it was just general for funsies/learning game, most reasonable people would say "just for next time know some people will use that and count it as targetable but you're new and it's only combat patrol so don't worry".


The problem with this is we're talking about relatively new players here who have no reference point for what "reasonable" is. They have no way of knowing what the right amount of terrain is, or what tags they need to attach to terrain to have a good game. If GW would just have written better guidelines and core rules this wouldn't be much of an issue. Telling new players they need to modify the game based on experience they don't yet have isn't a good way to approach game design.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Played at a GW store? With GW terrain which is as dense as Swiss cheese? No surprise you didn't get any suitable cover.

Next time play at home with homemade terrain and proper terrain area rules. True LOS rules are for the garbage can as you just found out by yourself.


GW swiss cheese is exactly the reason they made obscuring a thing.


Mhm ok and what advice do you have for this new player regarding the 'sighting a whole unit based on a single gun barrel' issue he seems to have had? D'you want to tell them 'welp sorry bud, gotta walk around the table and make sure you've got your gun barrels hidden, you actually asked for that unit to get wiped off the table in one shot really, that's all part of the highly skill-expressive mental chess contest that is competitive warhammer 40,000' or should I?


My suggestion would be for the other player to not be an donkey-cave to a new player, but since you can't count on that then my suggestion above would cover that scenario.

There are gakky people who take every advantage possible regardless of the game. It isn't fully a 40K problem, but I'm not going to go into an LOS debate.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I feel sticking down a Contemptor Dreadnought against someone having their first game isn't really the norm.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Sure, there will always be people who take advantage of rules just to be dicks.

...but also, 40k's rules have several factors about them that can be INCREDIBLY unintuitive for new players and the level of lethality as noted in the post makes minor mistakes INCREDIBLY punishing compared to most other wargames out there.

A new player, who does not know any better, might do something like:

-drive a vehicle up to partially cover itself with a piece of terrain in order to gain a defensive advantage while attacking

40k's rules make that little maneuver have absolutely zero effect.

-Move a unit up into a terrain piece in order to gain a defensive advantage

40k's rules mean that entering an Obscuring ruin building causes your defenses to be reduced from 'you cannot be targeted at all' to 'you get +1 to your save, allowing you to get probably a 5+ instead of a 6+ against the huge wall of shooting youre about to receive'

-move a unit such that some of the models in that unit will benefit from cover, assuming that will help them

40ks rules are written such that that unit is effectively standing out in the open even if one single model is exposed.

I teach new players how to play 40k all the time. Even with absolutely everything stripped out, no subfactions no strats no relics no wl traits no nothing, the first reaction to an engagement happening in 40k is almost always "Woah...so theyre just dead then?"

a min squad of primaris marines takes aim at some eldar guardians while within a captain aura - "Ok, now make 7 6+ saves....no 6s, guess that's 7 wounds."

A single ork Kustom Mega Kannon shoots at a sisters Immolator - "OK, 3 6+ saves...no 6s, roll for damage, and that's 12, so it's gone."

I've gotten to play with a lot of people that are outside my usual gaming group since the pandemic began. The reaction of 'oh, wow, theyre just gone?' or 'so all your stuff is gone, but its only turn 3, is that normal?' is a basically universal reaction to a new player's first exposure to the current edition of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I feel sticking down a Contemptor Dreadnought against someone having their first game isn't really the norm.


I dunno, one big thing/one walker in a 500pts list is basically what I'd consider the norm...sure a contemptor is like, 30pts more than a regular dread? But it aint no 'i stuck a land raider/guilliman/knight in my 500pt list' level dick move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 14:58:13


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah I mean I might put a Leman Russ into a 500pt game and still have something like 60 infantry
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
I dunno, one big thing/one walker in a 500pts list is basically what I'd consider the norm...sure a contemptor is like, 30pts more than a regular dread? But it aint no 'i stuck a land raider/guilliman/knight in my 500pt list' level dick move.


I guess it depends on whether its your basic one - which isn't unreasonable and shouldn't really have "unbelievably devastating" firepower, unless your opponent is getting lucky - or a relic contemptor with some combination of magic forgeworld guns (which is sort of where my mind went), which I think is sort of moving up the power scale.

I'm guessing its probably the former - which to my mind speaks to the player just having good luck. Which is why it would be nice to know the armies on both sides.

I mean Breachers are 3 wounds, T5, 2+/6++ save. They shouldn't really die from one volley from most things in a 500 point list. I could send say a 3-lance Ravager at them - but the odds of getting 3 hits, 3 wounds, no saves are incredibly remote.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I personally never use the tip of guns/flags/antennas to draw LoS, its completely ridiculous. I only consider an enemy in LoS if i can see its "vital part".

Still, i've taken the habit of moving my dudes with intent. I'll say "i move my Raptors behind this ruin so theyre hidden from you" and then if my opponent actually sees the tip of a chainsword, i remember them that i was intending on hiding them.


I'd accept that once & then remind you on future turns to actually move your models correctly.
It's not hard to do....
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Dudeface wrote:
Was going to jump in and say it depends if it was being considered a "competitive" game or not...
 Daedalus81 wrote:
My suggestion would be for the other player to not be an donkey-cave to a new player, but since you can't count on that then my suggestion above would cover that scenario.
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There are gakky people who take every advantage possible regardless of the game. It isn't fully a 40K problem, but I'm not going to go into an LOS debate.
Following the rules as written does not suddenly make the game 'competitive'. Following the rules as written does not suddenly make you an donkey cave. Following the rules does not mean that you're a gakky person "taking advantage".

The rules allow for the tips of claws, antennae and gun barrels to make you a valid target. Those rules are stupid, those rules should be changed, but until they are they are the rules and following them is not an indication of the type of game you are playing nor the type of person you are. This, in your case especially Daed, just seems like another avenue towards "The rules are fine; it's the players that are the problem!".

At the end of the day, the stupid LOS and cover rules 40k has means that this is just as valid a target as this (and it somehow works both ways... ), and the Hive Tyrant in this picture can be shot to ribbons, yet the Hive Tyrant in this picture cannot (because apparently height matters and width does not).

There's no consistency and there's certainly no logic, but that's the way they wrote the rule, and putting judgement values on those playing by the rules is getting really tiresome.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Central Valley, California

I will share thoughts soon, thanks for the considerate feedback everyone. Here were our lists:
HIS:
Primaris Captain
Redemptor Dreadnought
10x Primaris Intercessors

Captain has The Burning Blade Relic. Warlord Traits include Adept of the Codex and Calm Under Fire.

Captain - Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Power Sword, Relic Shield

Dreadnought - Macro Plasma Incinerator, 2x Storm Bolter, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon.

Intercessors - 10x Bolt Rifle, 10x Bolt Pistol, 2x Astartes Grenade Launchers.


My List:
Cawl HQ
Masterwork Bionics

Kataphron Destroyers x 3
- Cognis Flamers
Skitari Rangers x 5
-arquebus
taser goad
skitari rangers x 5
data-tether
arguebus
taser goad

Serberys Raiders
Enhanced Data Tether
CP 2/5

~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Warcry * LoTR SBG * Dust 1947 * Warmaster 10mm * 40K & Kill Team * Flames of '47 * Reign in Hell
 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






ccs wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I personally never use the tip of guns/flags/antennas to draw LoS, its completely ridiculous. I only consider an enemy in LoS if i can see its "vital part".

Still, i've taken the habit of moving my dudes with intent. I'll say "i move my Raptors behind this ruin so theyre hidden from you" and then if my opponent actually sees the tip of a chainsword, i remember them that i was intending on hiding them.


I'd accept that once & then remind you on future turns to actually move your models correctly.
It's not hard to do....


ok, so i'll spend a solid 15 minutes of moving my 60 pink horrors while double checking so that no flames or hands peek out on the side of a building -.-

But i guess we just have different approaches to the game, i'm all for RAW but i found that it speeds up the game a lot when playing how i do, and with no real change to the outcome

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 15:27:42


Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I will share thoughts soon, thanks for the considerate feedback everyone. Here were our lists:
HIS:
Primaris Captain
Redemptor Dreadnought
10x Primaris Intercessors

Captain has The Burning Blade Relic. Warlord Traits include Adept of the Codex and Calm Under Fire.

Captain - Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Power Sword, Relic Shield

Dreadnought - Macro Plasma Incinerator, 2x Storm Bolter, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon.

Intercessors - 10x Bolt Rifle, 10x Bolt Pistol, 2x Astartes Grenade Launchers.


My List:
Cawl HQ
Masterwork Bionics

Kataphron Destroyers x 3
- Cognis Flamers
Skitari Rangers x 5
-arquebus
taser goad
skitari rangers x 5
data-tether
arguebus
taser goad

Serberys Raiders
Enhanced Data Tether
CP 2/5


Well there is the first problem. You are bringing a list of mostly second stringers, Cawl is good though not as he used to be, Rangers are top tear though ypu need to take them in large mobs to get the most out of them.
As for him though if I recall a Redemptor is one of the best models in the game right now with enough firepower to desyroy small units of both heavy and light infantry. Also 10 interessors on a smaller board is a bit much.
   
 
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