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Made in gb
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West Yorkshire, England

Well, the resident fascist apologists successfully managed to drag the first thread off track with their whatboutisms and shoddy science and rewriting of history, just like they did the two threads that prompted it. And the mods reacted the usual way--lock the thread for being "heated", and choose not to address the underlying issues, or ban the apologists.

But this isn't going away. There is something rotten on your site. There are users who feel compelled to defend and whatabout actual Nazis. And for some reason, they are still posting. This is not a disagreement about toy soldiers that people are getting all overwrought over, this is people on your site attempting to normalise and make excuses for fascism, and (like Games Workshop did), you need to make an unambiguous statement that this is not acceptable in this house.

I've often been frustrated that the mods seem so reluctant to take on bad actors within their site, but this reaction--

I'm locking this thread for review. If someone wants to make a new thread with some direct feedback points (e.g. "locking threads only encourages disruption", "rules aren't enforced often enough", etc), and can do so in a clear and concise manner without going to derpsville, have at it, I'll check in periodically to police things. Keep it on topic and we'll hear you out on whatever you have to say, but leave the commentary and history lessons out or people will be getting time-outs.


--is at best, tone-deaf, with no recognition of the very real fear and anger behind the "heat" in the thread. You also seem entirely unbothered that a lot of people did stay very much on topic (I've copied their points below, points you need to be reading and understanding), but instead, chose to use the skilful provocations of the bad actors as an excuse to close the thread because people were daring to tell Formosa that his revisionist claptrap was revisionist claptrap, and showed no recognition of why several people are very alarmed at the kind of talk you're tacitly approving on your site.


We've had a thread shut down for being contentious when a Nazi showed up to a tourney and wasn't booted. Somehow, this is contentious.

We've had threads shut down in response to GW's statement on how the fascist Imperium is terrible because, uh, *whataboutthecommunistsorsomething* at the precise same time the neo-Nazi Christopher Cantwell was testifying that this is precisely the strategy the white nationalist movement use to fabricate their casus belli (Sines v. Kessler)

We keep having threads shut down for pushing back on racist, sexist and nationalist content in wargames without any sanction for the people bringing this noxious bs into out community (see the recent thread re Arch and it's peaceable closure without citing anyone for denying his racism and antisemitism,)

Is it, then, DakkaDakka's editorial position that Nazi and far-far-right positions are acceptable here, and that the only issue with ex'ressing agreement with antisemitic racism and sexist is the degree to which it will cause the moderators work, rather than any ethical or moral imperative?


While I understand the mods can't be present for *every* incident as and when it happens, I still don't understand how certain users are still permitted on this site, or the sanctions held against them (if any) are upheld.


It's the usual whattaboutism tactic of not-agreeing but also doing all in their power to shift the topic that makes it hard to do anything about the issue because the rules are made to deal with explicit situation, not the favorite tactic of blurring lines. In the case of the tournament thread it was basically all hinging on the incredibly threadbare argument of "well it's not actually a swastika, and there were plenty of austrian painters so we can never know".

Anyway, nothing will be done about it because no one here is stupid enough to come out and say without subtext that they think white supremacists are right, we'll just enjoy the occasional bouts of "hur hur Arch owned the sjws durr" followed by strawmen of "you said anyone that enjoys arch videos is a nazi". Dakka is basically Facebook of wargaming, except hopefully with a little less horse paste gourmets.


Of course it will work. I do love the "you just want an echo chamber" argument when what's happening is basically "I don't want any of my views or statements challenged"
Basically, since dakka is apolitical, everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and no one should be able to disagree. Cause disagreement is the worst sin. If I were to say "we should skin all rich alive" it's apolitical, if you write "actually that's effd up" then it's dragging politics into it.
Wearing a funny swastika to a tournament is not political, saying "hey, maybe we shouldn't let people bring in hate symbols to tournaments" is political.


I can only assume that people in c) aren't actual fascist sympathizers and instead buy into the argument that if we ban people who outright argue for racial segregation, removal of democracy and physical violence towards minorities, then soon "they" will come to ban anyone who isn't following the current zeitgeist of tolerance and acceptance of others. Which is a bit silly, because as people noted, this is a wargaming forum, unless you go out of your way to harass people, no one is likely to bring up any of those topics in the first place.

We loop back to my argument that this centers on the fact that people who whatabout-ed the thread don't want to have their right to voice politically charged opinions pointed out or argued with in topics like "female space marines" or "black marines", whenever they crop up.


It's really just a microcosm of the situation we see today - the far right noise machine is finally loud enough and brazen enough that no real enforcement can be done because "both sides, what about commies etc etc".

And so it keeps getting worse, from white supremacist aligned terror attacks (notice no communist aligned terror attacks) to people strutting in their swastika clad best.

It's Weimar all over again and the goosesteppers are playing the exact same tricks.

Maybe the mods could actually do something about the fascist aligned folks, but nah. Dakka can't have any sort of ban process or anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 22:09:46


"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in us
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SpaceCoast

NAZIs are scum that's why people like you use the term to dehumanize and other people who don't toe the party line.

You are correct that there is something rotten and its that bad actors like you and the original OP are allowed to continually attack people with no apparent repercussion.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

I’ve been on dakka a long time, and I have some insight into the overall philosophy behind how the site sees itself, as well as some of the realities behind how it works. Generally, the goal is to allow the broadest range of topics and viewpoints. I think there’s some old school early internet Utopianism mixed with a touch of free speech idealism. That’s tempered by the somewhat arbitrary “family friendly” restrictions on language, but whatever.

I also think that in practice, very few posters, even highly disruptive ones, are actually permanently banned. That’s clearly a top down view. I think if we saw behind the curtain, we’d see more positive cases of posters who start disruptive but calm down, but from our end we only see the people who seem to benefit from the long leash.

That combined to form a community that stays pretty vibrant, but also means that the onus to avoiding obnoxious posts moves to the reader. I do highly encourage people to curate their own experience here.

Now... that all said, the OP sort of has his answer, right? The moderators clearly don’t see persistent posting from a hard right view point, often as apologists for even worse behavior, as anathema to the site. I’m sympathetic to the idea that the modern far right is increasingly authoritarian and nationalist, and if I ran my own site I’d show some of those folks the door. OTOH, if someone accused me of being pro nazi because I allowed some these discussions I’d probably have some words about that, since the prior thread was so inflammatory as to be obnoxious. The idea that large chunks of our hobby are, at best open to increased authoritarian rule with far less concern for minorities of all stripes and at worst literal fascists is not really a consensus. Enacting such a rule would be a profound political statement that a large and successful hobby community would be loath to make.


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Quoted from Insaniak in the last thread:

Insaniak wrote:

To address a few of the points raised here:

First off, Dakka's official position is that Nazis are bad, and not welcome.

Based on that position we can, and have, suspended accounts where we felt there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. What we will not do is suspend someone's account just because they disagreed with you and you feel this means they are obviously a Nazi.


Since there seems to be still some confusion over political discussion - The specific ban on political and religious discussion applies to the Off Topic section of the site. In other words, it applies to political and religious discussion that is nothing to do with the wargaming hobby. Wargaming-related discussion that has a political nature, such as the recent Spanish tournament situation, is on-topic because it relates specifically to wargaming. These sorts of topics are generally allowed so long as they stay on track, although we will from time to time shut down specific topics if they prove to cause too much friction. There is not, and has never been, a complete ban on wargaming-related political discussion.

As always, we welcome reports where you feel a given topic or someone's behaviour in a thread is questionable. And also as always, reporting that behaviour is the appropriate way of dealing with it, rather than dragging threads off topic by starting fights over your perception of that person. The snapshot of a person that you see in an online discussion is rarely representative of that person's entire character.

While we will stomp on the expression of hateful ideologies, posters on Dakka come from a huge range of different backgrounds, views and experiences, and that's always been one of this site's main strengths. To steal a line someone said recently - Wargaming is for everyone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 22:09:07


 
   
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Under the couch

 Elemental wrote:

I've often been frustrated that the mods seem so reluctant to take on bad actors within their site, but this reaction--

I'm locking this thread for review. If someone wants to make a new thread with some direct feedback points (e.g. "locking threads only encourages disruption", "rules aren't enforced often enough", etc), and can do so in a clear and concise manner without going to derpsville, have at it, I'll check in periodically to police things. Keep it on topic and we'll hear you out on whatever you have to say, but leave the commentary and history lessons out or people will be getting time-outs.


--is at best, tone-deaf, with no recognition of the very real fear and anger behind the "heat" in the thread.

Then I'll make it clear here: We totally acknowledge that there is a very real fear and anger behind this discussion. However, we also realise that there is a huge polarisation in discussion these days (and not just online), where people just assume that if someone else's views don't align 100% with theirs, that they are an awful person. This can make navigating discussion on certain topics extremely problematic, and is what led to the politics ban in OT.

We most certainly don't want to encourage actual Nazis to hang out here. But we also don't want to create an echo chamber where people are afraid to share opinions because they fear being branded something they are not by those who disagree on that specific issue.




 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Mate I can't take you seriously when you accuse the whole site of being Nazis, that alone should be a bannable offence, go out and touch grass, get off the internet as it's clearly not doing you any good.
   
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Macon, GA

 insaniak wrote:
Then I'll make it clear here: We totally acknowledge that there is a very real fear and anger behind this discussion. However, we also realise that there is a huge polarisation in discussion these days (and not just online), where people just assume that if someone else's views don't align 100% with theirs, that they are an awful person. This can make navigating discussion on certain topics extremely problematic, and is what led to the politics ban in OT.

We most certainly don't want to encourage actual Nazis to hang out here. But we also don't want to create an echo chamber where people are afraid to share opinions because they fear being branded something they are not by those who disagree on that specific issue.


I think is fairly well intentioned, but only superficially even view of things. One of the classic ways that right wing authoritarianism has flourished over the centuries has been to limit debates about identity, race, class, and power to that ways that don't make people higher up on hierarchies uncomfortable, which of course ignores how deeply uncomfortable people at the bottom of those hierarchies are all the time. In short, we say, "well, racism is bad, but it's also terrible to accuse people of being racists."

I don't expect Dakka to be at the forefront of changing such a massive aspect of our culture, but it's important to know that protecting people from being accused of having terrible views is a form of protecting those people. Forgive my bluntness, but it is the site saying, "we hate Nazi's, but we're sympathetic to the people who are sympathetic to them."

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Under the couch

It's really, really not.

What it's saying is 'We hate Nazis, but you can't go around accusing people of being Nazis just because they disagree with you.'

It's not about protecting those sympathetic to Nazis. It's asking people to not leap to the conclusion that a contrary opinion automatically means that someone is sympathetic to Nazis.

 
   
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Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

People don't accuse people of being nazis because they disagree with them though. They use terms like 'fascism apologist' and so on. That seems to be an accurate description of what is going on in some of those discussions, where people try to explain away or deflect from criticism of, for example, the spanish neo nazi. This lazy language is present in this thread all over the place, though probably because the title and OP were pretty provocative.

   
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Macon, GA

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Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
It's really, really not.

What it's saying is 'We hate Nazis, but you can't go around accusing people of being Nazis just because they disagree with you.'

It's not about protecting those sympathetic to Nazis. It's asking people to not leap to the conclusion that a contrary opinion automatically means that someone is sympathetic to Nazis.


I hate people who misuse the term, but I learned about Godwin's law on Usenet. I use different language, because I hate some neckbeard telling me that "It's only national socialism if it comes from the Munich region, otherwise it's sparkling right wing authoritarianism." or, if the person is unusually thick, that's it's actually a far left wing idea because the word "socialist" is in the name. (Wait until they learn about the Holy Roman Empire!)

But that's not really what's I am opposed to. there are poster on here who have far right wing views, a deep suspicion of minorities, and a hatred of some vague left wing threat. I'm not a teenager calling my mom a fascist for making me clean my room, I'm a person who sees a person with fascist sympathies.
As a person with a keen interest in liberal democracy, I'm not troubled by calling fascists fascists.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/27 23:36:31


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Earth

 Da Boss wrote:
People don't accuse people of being nazis because they disagree with them though. They use terms like 'fascism apologist' and so on. That seems to be an accurate description of what is going on in some of those discussions, where people try to explain away or deflect from criticism of, for example, the spanish neo nazi. This lazy language is present in this thread all over the place, though probably because the title and OP were pretty provocative.



That is not true, we have repeatedly stated that person was wrong, but also called for other radical extremists ideologies to be proscribed, blanket ban.

The problem is we have members who are openly parts of those extremist ideologies and want to espouse them, so when we say no, you do not get a pass to spread your hateful rhetoric, they falsely accuse us of being sympathetic to Nazis, it's such a predictable thing at this point.

Everyone
"Nazis are evil and should be banned"

Liberals
"Yes we agree, but we also want other evil ideologies and hate groups banned, like communists/socialist derived groups"

Socialists/communists
"No, you can't ban those because they never did nothing wrong ever and I like them, but the evil Nazis should be banned still"

Liberals
"We can literally see the mountains of corpses caused by your ideology and have first hand experience of your actions"

Socialists/communists
"Ah so your a Nazi!!!!! Because only a Nazi would oppose communists, liberals get the bullet too"

Liberals
"Sigh.... Can you just go away"
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Formosa, I am a democratic socialist and you are equating me to a Nazi. Or even to a stalinist communist. Are you doing that on purpose or making a mistake?

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

If you are a socialist you have some ideological crossover with national socialism but that does not make you a national socialist as you do not adhere to race based socialist frameworks, however as a democratic socialist you are willing to engage with the democratic process which is antithetical to standard socialist frameworks, Fascistic ones and national socialism as all are authoritarian by nature.

As for a stalinsist, not that I'm aware of no, I do believe your political beliefs are utterly ridiculous but that is it, you have not done anything for me to think badly of you, we just disagree on our philosophy is all.

Funnily enough this is what tolerance is.

   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Well, do you think you could be a bit more careful with how you word things then? Since you don't like being linked in any way to nazis yourself.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

I have been, you inferred I did not imply you were nor did any of my language, I have assumed due to everyone here claiming to be well versed on the subject they would understand the distinctions and terminology used without me having to constantly explain.

But I should not just assume as you say.

Last message for now, night shift is kicking off, night everyone.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 insaniak wrote:
It's really, really not.

What it's saying is 'We hate Nazis, but you can't go around accusing people of being Nazis just because they disagree with you.'

It's not about protecting those sympathetic to Nazis. It's asking people to not leap to the conclusion that a contrary opinion automatically means that someone is sympathetic to Nazis.

If someone keeps posting videos or links to videos from known crummy people, is it really that big of a leap?

If someone keeps referring to things using shorthand vernacular that is extremely common to those kinds of crummy people, is it really that big of a leap?

I say this not as wanting carte blanche to call someone names, but there really does come a point where things should have been clear.
   
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Under the couch

 Kanluwen wrote:

If someone keeps posting videos or links to videos from known crummy people, is it really that big of a leap?

If someone keeps referring to things using shorthand vernacular that is extremely common to those kinds of crummy people, is it really that big of a leap?

Yes, making those sorts of judgements based on nothing more than a couple of forum posts is absolutely a bit of a leap.

I mean, it would be handy if the world was as simple as 'Likes Arch videos therefore is Nazi sympathiser'... but from my experience people are rarely actually that easily categorised.


 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 insaniak wrote:

We most certainly don't want to encourage actual Nazis to hang out here. But we also don't want to create an echo chamber where people are afraid to share opinions because they fear being branded something they are not by those who disagree on that specific issue.


 insaniak wrote:
It's really, really not.

What it's saying is 'We hate Nazis, but you can't go around accusing people of being Nazis just because they disagree with you.'

It's not about protecting those sympathetic to Nazis. It's asking people to not leap to the conclusion that a contrary opinion automatically means that someone is sympathetic to Nazis.


Here's the thing, I was restrained in the original thread and tried to avoid assuming the worst. But after a whole lot of whataboutisms over three threads about communism, antifa and censorship from those mean ol' liberals, arguments that we should give those poor lil' swastika wearering Austrian painters the benefit of the doubt and that lefty censorship is the real threat to civilisation.....

That's way beyond a "contrary opinion", and looks increasingly like the familiar old apologist dance. Especially when the subject is, to sane and civilised people, not controversial in the slightest. Nazis are bad, and whenever anyone fails to agree with that statement and starts breaking out the same old whataboutisms regarding communism and antifa, that's a bright red flag.


 Da Boss wrote:
Formosa, I am a democratic socialist and you are equating me to a Nazi. Or even to a stalinist communist. Are you doing that on purpose or making a mistake?


Neither. Formosa is doing the standard bad-actor dance where he baits people into arguing with him, then counts on the mods locking the thread for being "heated". He's already successfully done it once, the question is if he will be allowed to do it again.

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in gb
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Earth

Talk about projecting wow, come on elemental you go around in the last thread calling people Nazis.

You then created this thread doing the same, you are the epitome of a bad faith actor, I also think you are doing it deliberately.

If you cannot be polite and keep your radical views to yourself then take yourself to some other forum that suits your views better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 01:50:33


 
   
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Nashville, TN

As I said before, can you cite an instance of actual support of Nazis?

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Macon, GA

 insaniak wrote:
Yes, making those sorts of judgements based on nothing more than a couple of forum posts is absolutely a bit of a leap.

I mean, it would be handy if the world was as simple as 'Likes Arch videos therefore is Nazi sympathiser'... but from my experience people are rarely actually that easily categorised.


There is a very charming aspect to centrism in that they do see that people are rarely cartoonish in their views, and that political views, like anything else, can be nuanced. Few liberals are trying to cancel sushi for being cultural appropriation, and few conservatives are ready to fire up the gas chambers. this is true.

What's also true is that right wing authoritarianism doesn't spring from revolution. After all, more or less by definition, the right wing in any given society has a great deal of money, power, and influence. Right wing authoritarianism usually stems from either a military coup, usually to "protect" the society from some danger, or through electoral politics followed by a weakening of electoral systems. For the latter, you convince the center right that the left is a bigger threat, and they vote to give more and more power to the authoritarians. Either way, they succeed because the business interests, both large and small, go along with the change.

What this means is that, for any true hard right regime to take over a western democracy, it needs all the good, fair minded people in the middle to see them as the lesser of two evils. Which is why the role of policing what is, and is not, an acceptable view falls, not to the left, who have no control over the people that will make this decision, but to the center-right.

So no, not every fan of Arch is a Nazi, it is not that simple. and I'm not even saying not to watch his stuff, as I think adults can separate the art from the artist. But... when the actions of the center right to well documented wide spectrum bigots like Arch is to wring their hands over fans being called racist, it shows where their priorities are. and that is to keep things orderly, and polite, and respectful, and if women or people of color feel marginalized by his videos, they should get over it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 02:38:51


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SpaceCoast

I don't want to go to far into modern day politics but I don't see how anyone living in the US right now can say what you just did with a straight face.




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Macon, GA

Jerram wrote:
I don't want to go to far into modern day politics but I don't see how anyone living in the US right now can say what you just did with a straight face.




Life is not two dimensional and neither is political philosophies


A quick view of your posts show that you use the term "left wing" disparagingly multiple times, which suggests that you might not mean that sincerely.

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 Polonius wrote:
But... when the actions of the center right to well documented wide spectrum bigots like Arch is to wring their hands over fans being called racist, it shows where their priorities are. and that is to keep things orderly, and polite, and respectful, and if women or people of color feel marginalized by his videos, they should get over it.


Interesting analysis, but what would be the conclusion Dakka (or any online community) should draw from this insight?
   
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 Polonius wrote:
Jerram wrote:
I don't want to go to far into modern day politics but I don't see how anyone living in the US right now can say what you just did with a straight face.




Life is not two dimensional and neither is political philosophies


A quick view of your posts show that you use the term "left wing" disparagingly multiple times, which suggests that you might not mean that sincerely.


Touche, but no I actually do and I should have said one dimensional. I've seen some decent 2d and 3d political maps that I find interesting but I'm drifting off topic. And yes you caught me getting annoyed and using shorthand congratulations.
   
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How TF do you go from Insaniak saying essentially that we can't ban fans of Arch outright to DakkaDakka is oppressing women of color?

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Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

God almighty this thread is heading for lock hell so fast it's unreal.

If there are any things to be discussed it's these.

1. Nazis are bad.
2. Recent events, caused by nazis, have forced GW to take a harder stance on creating an unwelcoming environment for nazis. Whenever we have tried to discuss this, we have people brigading threads, trying to turn the conversation around, draw other users into fights, and signpost and dogwhistle about their politics, when we should all be saying "wow, nazis are terrorists they are and bad, glad they aren't welcome, it's so sad that they're trying to worm their way in." I think, therein, may be a sign that the moderation team need to discuss this, and consider their policy going forward.

As GW pushes more of these guys off of their plate, and as various social media networks try to get that kind of rhetoric off of their product, smaller indie forums like Dakkadakka become more at-risk of unwittingly taking in these fugitives.

I talked with Viterbi about my concerns about all of this a few months back, after the raging dumpster fire that was the "State of the Community" thread.
He gave me some really good responses, and talked through the moderation team's approach, which I must say, is very fair, logical, and really gives us all a lot of space to occasionally make mistakes.
I like the mods here. I think they mostly do a good job, especially when certain users are clearly on this forum looking to cause trouble and start drama. I've definitely not always stayed on their good side, and have had my fair share of deleted posts &c.

However, I've said in previous threads. I'm a civil servant. When I see people posting their swastika dice, or trying to make Arch socially acceptable here, I get nervous, because that's the sort of gak that, if it were to become normalized, would make this the kind of site I cannot be a member of for professional reasons.
Because of the extent of this bizarre agitation that keeps popping up, I'm not entirely sure the moderation team is able to provide an atmosphere on this site that is safe for me, and indeed, hostile enough to the espousing of nazi terrorist ideas. I think maybe, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, that it might be an idea for the mods to have a more in-depth review of what they think of this, especially given the hard stance GW has taken lately, and with regards to being able to better identify dog-whistle signpost-y crap, and make it clear that racist exterminationist extremism is not something to be tolerated here. Because it shouldn't.

It is not a political statement to say that Dakkadakka users should never have to be concerned that their race is something that would allow other dakkadakka users to diminish their humanity. It is not a political statement to say that terrorists should not be welcome on a board for little plastic space men.

Nazis are awful, and no one should put up with them trying to colonize their hobby space. IDK why this is so hard for some of you.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 03:55:17


 
   
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USA

 Polonius wrote:
A quick view of your posts show that you use the term "left wing" disparagingly multiple times, which suggests that you might not mean that sincerely.


I applaud you for taking the high road, and lament that the high road here is so damn low.

 BertBert wrote:
Interesting analysis, but what would be the conclusion Dakka (or any online community) should draw from this insight?


The TLDR there is that a problem doesn't go away just because people would prefer to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist (on the contrary, ignoring problems tends to make the problem worse). For an even longer explanation, see the Letter from Birmingham Jail. Particularly, this section;

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.


Which I think expresses a very applicable and border sentiment that is relevant to this topic.

In many ways, the only issue is that the status quo of moderation tends to result in hand wringing being protected, while those who are offended, concerned, or worried about <insert hot button topic> are generally forced into the position of 'being the problem.' This isn't just a DakkaDakka issue. I've experienced and seen this sentiment elsewhere in many contexts. To be upset is treated as wrong and whether or not there is any merit to being upset is treated as an irrelevancy. The status quo favors (shockingly) the status quo, whether the mods intend it to seem that way or not. In many ways, the issue is a communication problem. Someone sees something that they think is offensive, and instead of that being taken with any sort of consideration, it instead becomes an immediate and bitter back and forth over whether or not their reaction is legitimate. Usually ending in a heated exchange, a thread lock, and a sense that they were dismissed out of hand and with no consideration. Which is how you get a part 2 thread that will go about as nowhere as part 1 did.

Of course, in my experience talking about complex social issues is hard and most people would rather fall back on stock dismissals in the mistaken notion that a phrase like 'two dimensional' will in itself washes their hands of having to deal with the issue at all. And that just goes back to Polonius' point that 'centrism' often feels like its only goal is to avoid conflict and dismiss apparent sources of discord, rather than resolve issues. That's kind of the place the moderators on DakkaDakka have ended up (though I don't think that's really their fault, it's a byproduct of the times and the moderation approach of the board).

So, to return to your question about what people could do about it; It's possible to disagree with X while not dismissing it and belittling whoever brought it up or going on some ranting tangent that doesn't actually address X at all and instead just feels like a veiled attack rather than an insightful response. Yes. Ironically, the answer is to stay on topic and be nice. Whodathunkit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 04:11:39


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




This is a forum for wargaming. Not politics. If you're looking for social revolution here then you are looking in the wrong place. You can't expect moderators to go full Minority Report and start preemptively banning people for what they might say or do.

No one is in the wrong for being upset about Nazis. You're not even in the wrong for wanting Nazis banned. That is reasonable. Those people are sick. Wanting someone banned for being the fan of some POS like Arch is a bridge too far. What is so difficult about that?

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran





 LordofHats wrote:
...

Of course, in my experience talking about complex social issues is hard and most people would rather fall back on stock dismissals in the mistaken notion that a phrase like 'two dimensional' will in itself washes their hands of having to deal with the issue at all. And that just goes back to Polonius' point that 'centrism' often feels like its only goal is to avoid conflict and dismiss apparent sources of discord, rather than resolve issues. That's kind of the place the moderators on DakkaDakka have ended up (though I don't think that's really their fault, it's a byproduct of the times and the moderation approach of the board).


Thanks for this elaborate answer, it's not often you get to this level of analysis at 5 AM.

I agree it's hard for people to tackle complex social issues, especially in online spaces. Most users likely see this as a recreational space and simply don't want to bother with this kind of complexity and stress in the first place, which may prompt negative reactions or outright dismissal of what might be a genuine concern. Having one's principles challenged can be pretty stressful, so this reaction is understandable in my view. Now, if we are talking about mods, I'm not sure how to gauge their "centrist" approach. I constantly see red text in places where people got a little too excited, so mods do seem to deliver on reports fairly reliably. There is a human element as well, where all mods may be enforcing the same set of rules, but still have a different threshold on what they would deem offensive (and a rules violation as a result).

My original question had a different point, though. Polonius correctly surmised that different people may have a different set of priorities and I was wondering how that should inform the moderation approach, which seems to be the core issue of this topic.




This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/28 04:39:25


 
   
 
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