Switch Theme:

Bolters should have Ap-1  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





You know, diamantine tip and everything...
Seems kind of lame that the difference between them and a lasgun is 1 str.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wouldn't be the end of the world, and it would bring us one step closer to rolling primaris and firstborn together. On the other hand, the game is too lethal already. I'd be more inclined to take away the extra point of AP they've been handing out rather than putting it on more weapons.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Yes. More buffs. More stat creep. I see nothing wrong with this.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Absolutely not.

In fact they shouldn't even have AP-1 for 1-2 turns as bolter discipline shouldn't exist and intercessors should have AP0 like regular bolter guys.

 
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

The AP inflation in the game in 9th is a big problem, it has led to armour saves being a bit pointless and units being considered useless if they don't have an invulnerable save.
This has led to over half the factions in the game having access to army wide invuln saves.

The Ap and armour system is really good and works great if you stick to it, GW have not and thus it has become pointless.
Removing one of the best lethality/durability levers from their game design has led to the proliferation of rubbish non interactive rules like invuls, transhuman and neg 1 damage.

The AP chart should be something like this:
AP:0 All standard weapons
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.
AP:2 Anti-tank weapons
AP:3 Very good anti-tank weapons, noted to melt infantry.
AP:4 Extraordinarily powerful weapons that can fully bypass more or less any armour.
AP:5 Magic stuff!

30,000pts
12,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

 WisdomLS wrote:
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.

So... that would include bolters, then.

Those of us who have been around since 2nd edition know regular bolters originally did have AP -1. They're mini-RPG guns, not mere battle rifles.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Duskweaver wrote:
 WisdomLS wrote:
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.

So... that would include bolters, then.

Those of us who have been around since 2nd edition know regular bolters originally did have AP -1. They're mini-RPG guns, not mere battle rifles.


Ap-1 is fair on anti elite weapons such as heavy bolters, not regular bolters. The former AP4 weapons. Regular bolters were meant to deal with units like ork boyz, kabalite warriors, termagaunts, cultists, etc... bypassing only the worst saves, not the mid armours with 4+ or 5+ saves. With AP-1 they become good against 3+ or 4+ armours which is silly. Anything that carries a bolter would need a price hike then.

Old rapid fire weapons had also some limitations that have been removed, like fire or assault or fire with max shots without moving or fire one shot after moving. And current SM bolters already have AP-1 for 1 or 2 turns.

Ork S5 classic ranged weapons for example don't even have a single pip of AP, unless relying on speedwaaagh which only works on vehicles, for 2 turns and requires a tax HQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 09:39:18


 
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

 Duskweaver wrote:
 WisdomLS wrote:
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.

So... that would include bolters, then.

Those of us who have been around since 2nd edition know regular bolters originally did have AP -1. They're mini-RPG guns, not mere battle rifles.


The condescending "I've been playing for longer than you" argument doesn't really work on those of us who still have our original Rogue Trader rulebook

Boltguns are basic weapons and for the AP system to work properly all basic weapons should have zero AP, otherwise what is the point of paying for armour. Comparing back to very old editions is a spurious argument as the system, whilst similar at a casual glace was actually quite different. Boltguns may have had AP-1 but lascannons had -6, there was a far greater scale due to the fact the models could take armour and invuln saves plus the fact that the best armour saved on a total of 2D6.

There needs to be less AP across the board, the basic weapon stats are ok but all the rules that add to it push it over the top - just look at vehicles without invulnerable saves - the are nearly all considered trash as they will just die to the weapons that are out there.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/21 09:49:09


30,000pts
12,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

Blackie wrote:Ap-1 is fair on anti elite weapons such as heavy bolters, not regular bolters.

In the fluff, regular bolters are "anti-elite" weapons, though. They are the primary weapon used by space marines when shooting at other space marines. In the novels, space marines in full power armour are fairly regularly taken out by single bolter shots. Not like lasguns or autoguns where you empty an entire clip into the marine's helmet and pray you get a lucky shot through an eye-lens.

I should clarify that I'm talking from a 'pure fluff' perspective (and playing Devil's advocate a bit as well). I actually am not in favour of adding even more AP-1 weapons to the game, for balance / game design reasons. But from a 'pure fluff' perspective there are probably a lot of weapons that 'should' have different stats. If 40K was just a simulation of the fluff, then bolters would definitely be AP-1 (at least). But it isn't a simulation, it's a system that has to function as a fun and playable game, so it's OK that they don't have that AP.

WisdomLS wrote:The condescending "I've been playing for longer than you" argument doesn't really work on those of us who still have our original Rogue Trader rulebook

They were -1AP in RT as well, though, weren't they?

Anyway, I didn't intend to come across as condescending.

There needs to be less AP across the board, the basic weapon stats are ok but all the rules that add to it push it over the top - just look at vehicles without invulnerable saves - the are nearly all considered trash as they will just die to the weapons that are out there.

One of these days, I'm going to try allowing vehicles and monsters to roll their saves on 2D6 like Terminators used to do, and see if that fixes anything.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Duskweaver wrote:

In the fluff, regular bolters are "anti-elite" weapons, though. They are the primary weapon used by space marines when shooting at other space marines. In the novels, space marines in full power armour are fairly regularly taken out by single bolter shots.


They also fairly regularly run through hails of bolter shots without getting so much as a scratch despite not wearing a helmet.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:

In the fluff, regular bolters are "anti-elite" weapons, though. They are the primary weapon used by space marines when shooting at other space marines. In the novels, space marines in full power armour are fairly regularly taken out by single bolter shots.


They also fairly regularly run through hails of bolter shots without getting so much as a scratch despite not wearing a helmet.


Weren't bolters also created against Orks, a typically tough but only lackluster armoured species?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 14:03:32


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Duskweaver wrote:

In the fluff, regular bolters are "anti-elite" weapons, though. They are the primary weapon used by space marines when shooting at other space marines. In the novels, space marines in full power armour are fairly regularly taken out by single bolter shots. Not like lasguns or autoguns where you empty an entire clip into the marine's helmet and pray you get a lucky shot through an eye-lens.



In the fluff space marines are also extremely rare, super skilled and tanky, capable of killing several enemies on their own. They should be 40-60 ppm instead of 18-20 if they truly reflect their lore. Then someone could argue in favor of flat AP-1 on bolters.

The game has to make some compromise between lore, fun in listbuilding/collecting the army and balance. I don't think many SM players would love 2000 points armies of 20-30 dudes in power armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Duskweaver wrote:

One of these days, I'm going to try allowing vehicles and monsters to roll their saves on 2D6 like Terminators used to do, and see if that fixes anything.


What's to be fixed on terminators? GW already fixed them by giving them 3W. 2D6 saves on top of 3W and maybe even the stormshield bonus sounds crazy. Then you need to cost them at 70-80ppm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 14:09:27


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Blackie wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:

In the fluff, regular bolters are "anti-elite" weapons, though. They are the primary weapon used by space marines when shooting at other space marines. In the novels, space marines in full power armour are fairly regularly taken out by single bolter shots. Not like lasguns or autoguns where you empty an entire clip into the marine's helmet and pray you get a lucky shot through an eye-lens.



In the fluff space marines are also extremely rare, super skilled and tanky, capable of killing several enemies on their own. They should be 40-60 ppm instead of 18-20 if they truly reflect their lore. Then someone could argue in favor of flat AP-1 on bolters.

The game has to make some compromise between lore, fun in listbuilding/collecting the army and balance. I don't think many SM players would love 2000 points armies of 20-30 dudes in power armour.


Before the battle, both players roll a d6. If both players don't roll a 6 then the request for Space Marine aid is lost in the bureaucratic nightmare of the Imperium and the Space Marine player may not deploy. The non Space Marine player wins the battle. If both players roll a 6 then the request for Space Marine aid is passed to the Marine chapter leadership. The space marine player now rolls a d6, on a 1-5 they are not able to commit their very limited forces to this theatre of war at this time and the non space marine player wins. On a 6 the game is played as normal.

Got to be true to the lore, after all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 14:13:04


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think the standard 4 str 0 ap is a relic of past editions.
The game is being granularized and I don't think this is asking too much
as long as it is reflected in the point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WisdomLS wrote:
The AP inflation in the game in 9th is a big problem, it has led to armour saves being a bit pointless and units being considered useless if they don't have an invulnerable save.
This has led to over half the factions in the game having access to army wide invuln saves.

The Ap and armour system is really good and works great if you stick to it, GW have not and thus it has become pointless.
Removing one of the best lethality/durability levers from their game design has led to the proliferation of rubbish non interactive rules like invuls, transhuman and neg 1 damage.

The AP chart should be something like this:
AP:0 All standard weapons
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.
AP:2 Anti-tank weapons
AP:3 Very good anti-tank weapons, noted to melt infantry.
AP:4 Extraordinarily powerful weapons that can fully bypass more or less any armour.
AP:5 Magic stuff!


This is my favorite take so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 18:58:14


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Duskweaver wrote:
 WisdomLS wrote:
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.

So... that would include bolters, then.

Those of us who have been around since 2nd edition know regular bolters originally did have AP -1. They're mini-RPG guns, not mere battle rifles.

Yeah, but Lasguns ALSO had AP -1.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

You know Bolters are standard weapons, right? So they’d be AP0?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 WisdomLS wrote:
AP:1 Weapons particularly noted as having armour beating properties.

So... that would include bolters, then.

Those of us who have been around since 2nd edition know regular bolters originally did have AP -1. They're mini-RPG guns, not mere battle rifles.

Yeah, but Lasguns ALSO had AP -1.



+1 was going to say. And shuriken catapults were -2 standard.


When I rewrote 8th, I created a set of rules that governed ap rather than Having it as a weapon stat. It went:

Anti infantry (-1)
Anti materiel (-2)
Anti tank (-3)

These were only applied to special and heavy weapons, all basic rifles were ap0.

-4 would only appear on magic or titanic weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 21:25:30


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
You know Bolters are standard weapons, right? So they’d be AP0?

The Divine Bolter of the Emperor of Mankind
granted only to his most ardent warriors

is NOT a standard weapon.
Stop it.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 _SeeD_ wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You know Bolters are standard weapons, right? So they’d be AP0?

The Divine Bolter of the Emperor of Mankind
granted only to his most ardent warriors

is NOT a standard weapon.
Stop it.
So how about Shuriken Catapults and Tau Pulse Rifles? After all, those also had AP 5 back in the 3-7th paradigm.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 _SeeD_ wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You know Bolters are standard weapons, right? So they’d be AP0?

The Divine Bolter of the Emperor of Mankind
granted only to his most ardent warriors

is NOT a standard weapon.
Stop it.
So what are hyper advanced weapons capable of stripping a target to nothing, atom by atom?
What are monomolecular shuriken launchers?
What are specially designed toxins, able to melt through flesh like a hot knife through butter and fired at massive speed?

The baseline unit in 40k is the Marine. The baseline ranged weapon is a bolter.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You know Bolters are standard weapons, right? So they’d be AP0?

The Divine Bolter of the Emperor of Mankind
granted only to his most ardent warriors

is NOT a standard weapon.
Stop it.
So what are hyper advanced weapons capable of stripping a target to nothing, atom by atom?
What are monomolecular shuriken launchers?
What are specially designed toxins, able to melt through flesh like a hot knife through butter and fired at massive speed?

The baseline unit in 40k is the Marine. The baseline ranged weapon is a bolter.


I'm taking this comment back.
This point is actually pretty good.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/12/21 22:31:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For me, it boils down to this:

Mechanically, AP-1 bolters are doable and balancable, but they would also result in an increased lethality in a game that many feel is already too lethal.

In terms of lore, having a diamond-hard armor piercing tip and a rocket booster, impressive as it sounds, probably isn't all that impressive compared to some of the other "basic" weapons in the game. So if a pointy tip and a rocket booster is worth AP-1, how much more should shuriken and gauss tech be worth?

(And a game where gauss and shurikens are AP-2 default does a lot to make marines seem squishier and thus fail to live up to their hyper-durable shtick. It also probably makes marine players cranky.)
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Wyldhunt wrote:
For me, it boils down to this:

Mechanically, AP-1 bolters are doable and balancable, but they would also result in an increased lethality in a game that many feel is already too lethal.

In terms of lore, having a diamond-hard armor piercing tip and a rocket booster, impressive as it sounds, probably isn't all that impressive compared to some of the other "basic" weapons in the game. So if a pointy tip and a rocket booster is worth AP-1, how much more should shuriken and gauss tech be worth?

(And a game where gauss and shurikens are AP-2 default does a lot to make marines seem squishier and thus fail to live up to their hyper-durable shtick. It also probably makes marine players cranky.)


I feel like this is a case of marine players wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They simultaneously want to be super tanky (somewhat understandbly) but then want a way to bypass some of that tankiness with killiness in their guns. But then forget this isn't HH and they don't live in some marine-only vaccuum and that there's other races who have as much, if not more basis behind having better AP than bolters but conveniently forget them. I feel like Tactical Doctrine is more than capable of showing the extra AP they can get and it's ridiculous enough already with the high AP weaponry floating around in the game.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Grimskul wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
For me, it boils down to this:

Mechanically, AP-1 bolters are doable and balancable, but they would also result in an increased lethality in a game that many feel is already too lethal.

In terms of lore, having a diamond-hard armor piercing tip and a rocket booster, impressive as it sounds, probably isn't all that impressive compared to some of the other "basic" weapons in the game. So if a pointy tip and a rocket booster is worth AP-1, how much more should shuriken and gauss tech be worth?

(And a game where gauss and shurikens are AP-2 default does a lot to make marines seem squishier and thus fail to live up to their hyper-durable shtick. It also probably makes marine players cranky.)


I feel like this is a case of marine players wanting to have their cake and eat it too.


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Its not just Marines who use Bolters.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 _SeeD_ wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
For me, it boils down to this:

Mechanically, AP-1 bolters are doable and balancable, but they would also result in an increased lethality in a game that many feel is already too lethal.

In terms of lore, having a diamond-hard armor piercing tip and a rocket booster, impressive as it sounds, probably isn't all that impressive compared to some of the other "basic" weapons in the game. So if a pointy tip and a rocket booster is worth AP-1, how much more should shuriken and gauss tech be worth?

(And a game where gauss and shurikens are AP-2 default does a lot to make marines seem squishier and thus fail to live up to their hyper-durable shtick. It also probably makes marine players cranky.)


I feel like this is a case of marine players wanting to have their cake and eat it too.


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.


I think it's easy for people to forget that when we're playing games of this scale that you will need a level of abstraction for weaponry even if it seems strong on an individual level. If it was a squad based game like Kill Team, then I think it's fine to go into the details of bolter weaponry and how its superior to things like lasguns. However, when you have stuff varying from dinky grot blastas to titan-killing Volcannon Cannons, using a D6 dice basis to show that granularity, you're bound to lose a lot of that nuance.

Basically, if you want lore-accurate feel for SM and all their weapons, I suggest playing something like the Deathwatch RPG or Kill Team.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Its not just Marines who use Bolters.


Yeah, but you could argue that the bolters used by SoB and IG are usually smaller scale Godwyn-De'az Pattern pattern bolters, so they should be lower in stats rather than equivalent to Astartes level bolters (just like how Astartes Shotguns got a boost in stats compared to the ones used by IG). I'm pretty sure most sisters players wouldn't be happy to have weaker bolters than SM given that you already miss out on bolter discipline.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/22 16:32:46


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 _SeeD_ wrote:


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.


Is that the lore where marines are killed by single bolter shots or the lore where marines run through hails of bolter fire unharmed? Because both exist.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.


Is that the lore where marines are killed by single bolter shots or the lore where marines run through hails of bolter fire unharmed? Because both exist.



...this conversation is over.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 _SeeD_ wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.


Is that the lore where marines are killed by single bolter shots or the lore where marines run through hails of bolter fire unharmed? Because both exist.



...this conversation is over.
Why? Malus has a point-the lore is inconsistent. Extremely so.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:


That's not it. I want the rules to reflect the lore as best as possible, AS LONG AS IT IS REFLECTED IN THE POINT COST (so important, stop judging me like that).
I retracted the opinion because balancing similarly lethal AP0 weapons across factions makes it not feasible.


Is that the lore where marines are killed by single bolter shots or the lore where marines run through hails of bolter fire unharmed? Because both exist.



...this conversation is over.
Why? Malus has a point-the lore is inconsistent. Extremely so.


Simply put, because I don't care anymore.
My immediate thought was "I don't f--king know. Pick a spot"
I'm not trying to dive into this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to make an apology for the aggressiveness.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/22 18:49:37


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: