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Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






I started collecting them because of how super elite they where in 7th ed. And now don't really want to play my custodes ATM. All the stats creep in space marines and especially this years dataslates, made Custodes play like golden marines. A deathwing terminator army plays more like Custodes than the ten thousand them self. A leman russ has better armor than a Custodes landraider. I know SM and AM needed buffs but and Custodes were too good when the codex came out this year. But the way GW did it is just bad game design.
Lore wise a space marine is to a Custodes what a guardsman is to a space marine. That not is represented in the rules anymore. When I started my golden Legion in back 7th a guardian had 2 wounds and a normal space marine had 1 and there where no T5 marines. The massive deviation from the background really started when Eradicators came out and hat 3W and T5.

I hope that the horus heresy book when it comes out in October will represent Custodes better than 40k rules do ATM.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 08:32:43


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





You are correct. The question GW asks itself is this:

"If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"

As such, the armies that are the most expensive or for which the stock has been sitting on the shelves for a long time, need to be buffed. Spikeybits did a great piece recently about the balance datasheet, showing clear evidence that GW purposefully unbalanced the game to sell more product.

https://spikeybits.com/2022/06/gw-actually-has-some-explaining-to-do-about-the-40k-balance-dataslate.html
   
Made in gb
Imperial Recruit in Training



Salisbury, UK

Sumilidon wrote:
..."If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"...


Uno reverse - As a guard player.. Why is the most expensive army one of the worst? (Yet I still collect plastic crack)
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

Sumilidon wrote:
Spikeybits did a great piece recently about the balance datasheet, showing clear evidence that GW purposefully unbalanced the game to sell more product.


First of all, it's Spikeybits so the chances of them doing anything other than clickbait garbage are about the same as the chances of me winning the lottery, buying GW, and fixing all of these balance issues. Second, even they admit that the dates aren't an infallible source of information. Third, the entire premise doesn't even make any sense. This isn't a case of one datasheet making a major buff that is then reversed by the other, there's no plausible business motive here. It's pure clickbait and you should feel bad for making me visit that dumpster fire of a site.

As such, the armies that are the most expensive or for which the stock has been sitting on the shelves for a long time, need to be buffed


And yet somehow month after month guard remain both the most expensive army to buy and the worst (or second-worst, thanks admech) at winning games. They even do this despite a new model update coming soon, which means that if GW massively over-buffed guard and sold a bunch of the current kits they'd still have a second opportunity to sell a bunch of stuff when the new releases come out. Meanwhile what have the best armies been? Gold space marines, the definition of low model count low dollar price. Tau, with a list that spams elite models with a great dollars per point ratio. Clown elves, another elite army. Tyranids, where the best units are expensive monsters. Where are these expensive to buy horde armies that are being buffed to the top of the meta?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nordsturmking wrote:
made Custodes play like golden marines


That's because you are gold marines. You shouldn't even have a codex in 40k, retconning them into a playable army was a horrible decision from a fluff point of view.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 09:29:06


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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sumilidon wrote:
You are correct. The question GW asks itself is this:

"If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"

As such, the armies that are the most expensive or for which the stock has been sitting on the shelves for a long time, need to be buffed. Spikeybits did a great piece recently about the balance datasheet, showing clear evidence that GW purposefully unbalanced the game to sell more product.

https://spikeybits.com/2022/06/gw-actually-has-some-explaining-to-do-about-the-40k-balance-dataslate.html
For one the article is utter bs and just conveniently ignores that you can check the creation date on the pdf, which is june 21st, so the datasheet can't have been uploaded in april unless GW has a time machine.

Secondly GSC is probably the more expensive army to collect, or close to and they received 0, nip nada changes and while not the lowest winrate, they certainly do not perform, and almost no one plays them so GW could make an absolute killing if they catapulted GSC to the best army in the game and get the FOMO crew on it.

GW is not a diabolical genius playing the meta.
Its just a bunch of underpayed and overworked writers putting out the level of content you would expect from underpayed and overworked employees.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 09:39:55


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think No, not really.
And it’s more a issue off the GW Hype train for super elite soldiers, with super elites within those ranks. And then more on top over the years.
In a game that still is supposed to involve tanks and anti tank weaponry.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

AM is bad despite being expensive only for a reason: they have a very old codex. I'm sure they won't be bottom tier as soon as they get their 9th edition rules.

GSC are in a much worse spot, they are super expensive, pretty mediocre, but with very new rules. Unlike AM they're a minor faction though, and that's why they don't get a lot of attention. AM is a main faction and will have their moment of fame. I expect this to happen very soon since they're now the only faction without a 9th codex.

 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Ordana wrote:

For one the article is utter bs and just conveniently ignores that you can check the creation date on the pdf, which is june 21st, so the datasheet can't have been uploaded in april unless GW has a time machine.


I just created pdf with 30.6.2022 as creation date. Do I own time machine? Somebody explain how I can get lottery win with my time machine

Altering file you create and you have access is actually super easy. Altering WP dates isn't easy enough that I know how to do.

Either the PDF date has been altered or WP date has been altered.

Of course it's possible spikey bits is full of bs. Not trustworthy source as such. However the point they did about WP dates is good and if there's no reasonable alternative explanation then it's plausible. GW using rule changes as marketing tool is hardly a secret anyway. Shifting imbalance sells way more than balance.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/28 11:04:04


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Been Around the Block




CadianSgtBob wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
Spikeybits did a great piece recently about the balance datasheet, showing clear evidence that GW purposefully unbalanced the game to sell more product.


First of all, it's Spikeybits so the chances of them doing anything other than clickbait garbage are about the same as the chances of me winning the lottery, buying GW, and fixing all of these balance issues. Second, even they admit that the dates aren't an infallible source of information. Third, the entire premise doesn't even make any sense. This isn't a case of one datasheet making a major buff that is then reversed by the other, there's no plausible business motive here. It's pure clickbait and you should feel bad for making me visit that dumpster fire of a site.

As such, the armies that are the most expensive or for which the stock has been sitting on the shelves for a long time, need to be buffed


And yet somehow month after month guard remain both the most expensive army to buy and the worst (or second-worst, thanks admech) at winning games. They even do this despite a new model update coming soon, which means that if GW massively over-buffed guard and sold a bunch of the current kits they'd still have a second opportunity to sell a bunch of stuff when the new releases come out. Meanwhile what have the best armies been? Gold space marines, the definition of low model count low dollar price. Tau, with a list that spams elite models with a great dollars per point ratio. Clown elves, another elite army. Tyranids, where the best units are expensive monsters. Where are these expensive to buy horde armies that are being buffed to the top of the meta?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nordsturmking wrote:
made Custodes play like golden marines


That's because you are gold marines. You shouldn't even have a codex in 40k, retconning them into a playable army was a horrible decision from a fluff point of view.
this about sums it up, though I will say from a lore perspective custards are just slightly better than a marine as in they get beaten by marines one on one all the time, also primaris would be as strong if not stronger then custodes, even though primaris are themselfs Teri ally written into the lore.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






To the original topic:
Yes. So much yes.
I've been griping about that on the BSData server for a long time now.
Custodes are losing more and more of their faction identity with every balance dataslate and every marine release.
The new codex made it only worse and is probably the unfluffiest of the entire bunch.... you can almost see the checklists in codex design they checked off with Katars.
The army of warriors, not soldiers, which fight as individuals in opposition to marines which fight as coherent units, suddenly has army wide stances.
I too picked up custodes to scratch the marine itch, but not dive into the, imo, terrible primaris. And now we have marines outclassing custodes. Not in WR%, but... in feel.
I'd gladly pay more pts per model to get rules representing the superiority of a custodian over a marine. More attacks, more wounds, something like the blade champ has to show the supreme melee prowess of even a "simple" custodian guard.
Custodes should be the most expensive, but most powerful single models in the infantry category.
Currently, we only get the former.

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Been Around the Block




Also I will add lore wise chaos space marines should be by far the strongest single combatants.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





hardcore1six wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
..."If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"...


Uno reverse - As a guard player.. Why is the most expensive army one of the worst? (Yet I still collect plastic crack)


That's simple, they don't have a codex yet.

In the early days of 8th, you may remember that Guard were horrendously overpowered. The smaller sized games that favoured shooting was a real game changer for them but this was not intentional, as evident by that fact they never kept that dominance, it was simply a convenient consequence of the new way of playing.

Now what do you want to bet that when they get a codex, they become stupidly good?

As for those saying Spikeybits is talking gak, you should look at the evidence. Wordpress is not an easy thing to fake or fix. If that thing says it was uploaded in April, then that is when it was uploaded. Even if you could fake it to show as April when it's currently June, what would be the point in doing so? As for the pdf creation date however, that's really easy. Change your PC's clock, create the pdf, correct your PC clock. Why would you do this? To hide the fact you actually made it months before.

I get the fanboys rushing to the defence but you are defending the indefensible here. You're a cash-cow, at least acknowledge that you're being led down the path by choice, rather than by ignorance.
   
Made in ca
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Stasis

In looking at Custodes so I can run a SoS force.

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hardcore1six wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
..."If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"...


Uno reverse - As a guard player.. Why is the most expensive army one of the worst? (Yet I still collect plastic crack)

It is expensive and few people want to buy it. While there are expensive armies, with a much faster turn over, which are bought by more people, and that is why those get updated more often.

But yeah the idea that someone could buy 4-5 boxs of anything and have a finished army, is a horror for GW. Unless those boxs are priced like knights.

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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Such a horror that they...released such factions for both flagship games.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Karol wrote:
hardcore1six wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
..."If we make the cheapest army also one of the best, are we failing the shareholders?"...


Uno reverse - As a guard player.. Why is the most expensive army one of the worst? (Yet I still collect plastic crack)

It is expensive and few people want to buy it. While there are expensive armies, with a much faster turn over, which are bought by more people, and that is why those get updated more often.

But yeah the idea that someone could buy 4-5 boxs of anything and have a finished army, is a horror for GW. Unless those boxs are priced like knights.


Horus Heresy folks can spend $254 for something like 1500 points. GW knows people will always want more stuff. You just need to get them hooked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 16:11:07


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Given the stats creep in marines, we need more stats creep in factions like Necrons and Chaos Demons to make them the match for Astartes that they're supposed to be. Custodes can be Marines +1, that's fine; thematically they're very different, as the soullessly loyal button men to an absentee genocidal leader; the Astartes have more free will and humanity.
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






I'd rather say that while Astartes are reliable, mass produced, simple but effective weapons (bolters), Custodes are the more advanced, hand crafted and very expensive to create and maintain version (volkites).

Basically, an astartes is what you get when you order Custodes from Wish

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Blackie wrote:I expect this to happen very soon since they're now the only faction without a 9th codex.

Unless I've missed an announcement - and even ignoring Votann and World Eaters - Chaos Daemons says hi...

Boosykes wrote:Also I will add lore wise chaos space marines should be by far the strongest single combatants.

No, Custodes should outclass CSM, especially if we're talking the "average" trooper from each faction.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Thairne wrote:
I'd rather say that while Astartes are reliable, mass produced, simple but effective weapons (bolters), Custodes are the more advanced, hand crafted and very expensive to create and maintain version (volkites).


In the setting, boltguns are not simple or particularly reliable. They take extensive maintenance and support, but they are *very* effective.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






As a thousand sons player that loves rubrics, and has had to deal with GW showing goat men in my face for near 2 editions the only think i can think of is this.


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

Sumilidon wrote:
That's simple, they don't have a codex yet.


But why does that matter? Make basic guardsmen 3ppm in the point update, it's a major buff that requires buying a ton of models to use it. If updates are being used to push sales as you claim then that's the kind of thing we should see, but we don't.

As for those saying Spikeybits is talking gak, you should look at the evidence.


I did. When I looked at the evidence I found multiple things:

1) Spikeybits is clickbait trash so everything they say needs to be taken with a whole ocean of salt.

2) GW has no incentive to make the balance dataslate in advance because none of its contents really align with any coherent sales motive. They didn't buff an army only to nerf it back down after they clear out their inventory, and they didn't make any changes that feel obviously out of place with the actual tournament meta. A conspiracy theory requires a coherent motive and there just isn't one.

3) Even if GW was being dishonest with the balance changes they have no reason to upload the finished pdf months before its publication date. What would be the point of that, other than creating the possibility that someone stumbles on it early and leaks the changes?

The obvious conclusion here is that Spikeybits is once again trash, and if the dates mean anything it's almost certainly a boring maintenance thing like uploading a blank template pdf to check that your link works. But Spikeybits doesn't care about plausibility or coherent theories, they just want you to click on the GW SUCKS clickbait and put another set of views on their page full of ads.

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 Dysartes wrote:

Unless I've missed an announcement - and even ignoring Votann and World Eaters - Chaos Daemons says hi...


I thought Squats, WE and Daemons were just part of the AM and Chaos Space Marines codexes.

 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Oh this thread is going to turn into a gak show within two pages....

Apparently a lot of people have some skewed view of custodes lore. They are heaps and bounds above a single astartes, doesn't matter if it's chaos, primaris or old marines.
This is supported not only in codex lore, but also in many black library publications (the emperors legion, regents shadow, master of mankind, valdor birth of the imperium, blood games) one horribly written book (outcast dead) doesn't change that....an unarmed world eater punching(!) through power armor, any power armor, is fething stupid, hence why most people ignore that garbage piece of writing.

On the tabletop the golden boys don't feel as they should right now. Which is not to say that they are a bad army right now, but the feel of playing a hyper elite, super low model count, expensive force is a bit lost when there are other space marine factions who do it better. GW removed some balance levers like weapon skill values and initiative, that could have been used to differentiate custodes from marines a bit more, which is why I'm hoping for the new horus heresy book for custodes.

Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.
   
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Tiberias wrote:
Oh this thread is going to turn into a gak show within two pages....

Apparently a lot of people have some skewed view of custodes lore. They are heaps and bounds above a single astartes, doesn't matter if it's chaos, primaris or old marines.


The best Astartes are better than the average Custodes. The rules reflect this.

Tiberias wrote:
This is supported not only in codex lore, but also in many black library publications (the emperors legion, regents shadow, master of mankind, valdor birth of the imperium, blood games) one horribly written book (outcast dead) doesn't change that....an unarmed world eater punching(!) through power armor, any power armor, is fething stupid, hence why most people ignore that garbage piece of writing.


A lot of gak can be accomplished with the rage of Khorne and waaay too many space steroids.

Tiberias wrote:
On the tabletop the golden boys don't feel as they should right now. Which is not to say that they are a bad army right now, but the feel of playing a hyper elite, super low model count, expensive force is a bit lost when there are other space marine factions who do it better. GW removed some balance levers like weapon skill values and initiative, that could have been used to differentiate custodes from marines a bit more, which is why I'm hoping for the new horus heresy book for custodes.


Nah, I think the current differentiation in power levels is fine, just the balance could use a little tweaking. Custodes represent "hyper elite" just fine; it seems you get upset when other factions' elite troops aren't effortlessly defeated one-on-one by yours. That's a problem, but it's a problem with your attitude, not the game.

Tiberias wrote:
Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.


Well, the point is if Custodes are just "Astartes, but better" then they don't need to exist as a faction. Hence why I said they're soulless button men; that works better to differentiate them from the Astartes, who are like classical heroes, with emotions and flaws and actual heroism and all that.
   
Made in it
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Italy

Tiberias wrote:


Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.


Yes, of course such comment would be too harsh but... Custodes were introduced at the very end of 7th, when there were tons of imperium subfactions already and even before gravis/primaris some of them (Space wolves with TWC, termies, dreads and wulfen or Deathwing/Ravenwing) were already very elite oriented with low model count. Custodes didn't really have their niche even when they were released, other than being shiny new golden knight looking marines.

I personally would hate a faction that is even more elite than custodes. It would mean 20 models at 2000 points or just 10 at 1000.... which is almost imperial knights territory. I'm not a custodes player but I think the faction is fine as it is, it's still very elite oriented but has finally the option of getting cheaper bodies as well.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Blackie wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:

Unless I've missed an announcement - and even ignoring Votann and World Eaters - Chaos Daemons says hi...


I thought Squats, WE and Daemons were just part of the AM and Chaos Space Marines codexes.

Thank you for confirming you have no clue what you're talking about.

Hecaton wrote:Well, the point is if Custodes are just "Astartes, but better" then they don't need to exist as a faction. Hence why I said they're soulless button men; that works better to differentiate them from the Astartes, who are like classical heroes, with emotions and flaws and actual heroism and all that.

They fact that they're not - within the setting, at the very least - "Astartes, but better" confirms that people arguing that they shouldn't exist have no ground to stand upon.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Just when I say this thread is going to turn into a gak show Hecaton comes out of the woodwork. Haven't had enough chances lately to inevitably derail a thread and call all imperium players literal fascists?

Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Oh this thread is going to turn into a gak show within two pages....

Apparently a lot of people have some skewed view of custodes lore. They are heaps and bounds above a single astartes, doesn't matter if it's chaos, primaris or old marines.


The best Astartes are better than the average Custodes. The rules reflect this.


Yes there are outliers like Dante or Sigismund back in 30k. That was not what I was talking about and you know it. There was a comment a few posts up, claiming that chaos marines would just be straight up better or that there is basically no real gulf between a custodes and a primaris, and that is just not correct.


Tiberias wrote:
This is supported not only in codex lore, but also in many black library publications (the emperors legion, regents shadow, master of mankind, valdor birth of the imperium, blood games) one horribly written book (outcast dead) doesn't change that....an unarmed world eater punching(!) through power armor, any power armor, is fething stupid, hence why most people ignore that garbage piece of writing.


A lot of gak can be accomplished with the rage of Khorne and waaay too many space steroids.


Of course you would defend that crap. Tell me, where do we draw the line there? If an unarmed world eater is enraged enough, he can punch through a primarch in 30k bare fisted? Why the hell not? After all, a lot of gak can be accomplished with rage and space steroids, right?

When can we all collectively admit that this particular piece of writing is objectively bad and only happend because the author in all likelyhood didn't do proper research. Punching through ANY power armor bare fisted as an astartes is objectively stupid.


Tiberias wrote:
On the tabletop the golden boys don't feel as they should right now. Which is not to say that they are a bad army right now, but the feel of playing a hyper elite, super low model count, expensive force is a bit lost when there are other space marine factions who do it better. GW removed some balance levers like weapon skill values and initiative, that could have been used to differentiate custodes from marines a bit more, which is why I'm hoping for the new horus heresy book for custodes.


Nah, I think the current differentiation in power levels is fine, just the balance could use a little tweaking. Custodes represent "hyper elite" just fine; it seems you get upset when other factions' elite troops aren't effortlessly defeated one-on-one by yours. That's a problem, but it's a problem with your attitude, not the game.


Not a single custodes player asked for an I-win button for their units whenever they hit anything, that was absolutely not the point. It's more in the same ballpark as people being annoyed that the baneblade didn't have a better save than the leman russ and rightly so. It just breaks immersion. We are also not talking about balance here at all. I am quite positive that most custodes players would be fine for their infantry units to go up in points significantly if they just gained an extra attack and wound for example. A small possible change within the current rules framework that would put a bit of a gap between them and gravis marines for example or deathshroud terminators.


Tiberias wrote:
Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.


Well, the point is if Custodes are just "Astartes, but better" then they don't need to exist as a faction. Hence why I said they're soulless button men; that works better to differentiate them from the Astartes, who are like classical heroes, with emotions and flaws and actual heroism and all that.



The point is that they are distincly not "Astartes, but better". The latest black library publications as well as their two codices established this quite well. I can only encourage you to read some books about them by Chris Wraight for example, they are really quite good.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 08:00:18


 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:

Thank you for confirming you have no clue what you're talking about.



About chaos and squats? There's no shame in admitting that, I've never been interested in that stuff as I loathe the models and the lore .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 08:16:22


 
   
Made in fi
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 Blackie wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.


Yes, of course such comment would be too harsh but... Custodes were introduced at the very end of 7th, when there were tons of imperium subfactions already and even before gravis/primaris some of them (Space wolves with TWC, termies, dreads and wulfen or Deathwing/Ravenwing) were already very elite oriented with low model count. Custodes didn't really have their niche even when they were released, other than being shiny new golden knight looking marines.

I personally would hate a faction that is even more elite than custodes. It would mean 20 models at 2000 points or just 10 at 1000.... which is almost imperial knights territory. I'm not a custodes player but I think the faction is fine as it is, it's still very elite oriented but has finally the option of getting cheaper bodies as well.


Eh...custodes have existed weeeee bit longer.

Good way of demonstrating ignorance of 40k.

Can't say about 1st ed since never had that but 100% sure they existed in 2nd ed.

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