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 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.

??? Did I miss something? since when do LRBTs have a 4++?
Or do you mean that due to AoC they save on a 4+ against AP-3 and imply that there is nothing relevant above AP-3?

I think thats what he means but it shows how badly the power creep is that even with that, they still suck.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.

??? Did I miss something? since when do LRBTs have a 4++?
Or do you mean that due to AoC they save on a 4+ against AP-3 and imply that there is nothing relevant above AP-3?

Read the sentence please.
I said "effectively". Also I'm not "implying" that there is nothing relevant above AP-3, but that such weapons are relatively rare. Mostly relics and meltas. And that is before you manage to apply cover, which is also a factor.
And yes, even with that, they still suck. If that doesnt ring an alarm bell, I don't know what else could.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, that and weapons/abilities that completely ignore all invulns made MW spam basically the basic game in town. What good is a 2+4++4+++ if you opponent can just delete your units? It's not even MWs now. There are just guns that shoot pure F U and suddenly your tank isn't there anymore. Like what good is paying a double cost premium if your units can be deleted by another unit worth half as much? This is the main issue with 9ths power creep. Melta Marines came out and Armor saves were suddenly irrelevent. The "Ignores Invuln" rule started appearing everywhere, and suddenly invulns were irrelevant. Custodes are basically forced now into EC only lists, because the 4+++ is the only thing keeping us alive long enough to earn points back.

What unit that is cheaper than Sag Guard is currently 1 shotting it with ease?

Zoanthropes with their rather easy to reach supersmite.

 Thairne wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.

??? Did I miss something? since when do LRBTs have a 4++?
Or do you mean that due to AoC they save on a 4+ against AP-3 and imply that there is nothing relevant above AP-3?

Read the sentence please.
I said "effectively". Also I'm not "implying" that there is nothing relevant above AP-3, but that such weapons are relatively rare. Mostly relics and meltas. And that is before you manage to apply cover, which is also a factor.
And yes, even with that, they still suck. If that doesnt ring an alarm bell, I don't know what else could.

Ok ok calm down calm down, he was just asking a question, we dont need the whole "EFFECTIVLY" l2read kinda commets i think.

They do still horribly suck because of the AP creep but imo guard struggle in other ways because of random number of shots. IMO if you wanna make guard good they should have a rule that says "Any weapon that fires D6 shots when determining the number of shots, results of 1 and 2 are doubled. When rolling to detemine number of shots for a weapon with 2d6 shots, results of 1 are doubled. when rolling number of shots for a weapon with d3 shots double results of 1."

IMO, so you can completely ignore this if you want, the thing that made guard good were templates. They could spam large blasts very easy, and you did not need to roll to hit with blasts you just rolled to scatter - your BS. and a scatter had a 33% chance to hit, technically much higher if you consider the 2d6 - BS.
So that meant despite being low BS they could throw pie plates out, now in 8th and 9th, they struggle because now you have to roll for number of shots, then roll to hit on those shots, then roll to wound on those shots, so the law of averages just kinda screws them.

SemperMortis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, that and weapons/abilities that completely ignore all invulns made MW spam basically the basic game in town. What good is a 2+4++4+++ if you opponent can just delete your units? It's not even MWs now. There are just guns that shoot pure F U and suddenly your tank isn't there anymore. Like what good is paying a double cost premium if your units can be deleted by another unit worth half as much? This is the main issue with 9ths power creep. Melta Marines came out and Armor saves were suddenly irrelevent. The "Ignores Invuln" rule started appearing everywhere, and suddenly invulns were irrelevant. Custodes are basically forced now into EC only lists, because the 4+++ is the only thing keeping us alive long enough to earn points back.

What 75pts unit is currently 1 shotting a unit of 3 Sag Guard? I get that you were using exaggeration here but seriously? what unit that is cheaper than Sag Guard is currently 1 shotting it with ease?

As far as Mortal wound spam? yeah, most ork lists are being FORCED to move into Mortal wound spam because 2+4++ is too hard for us to deal with with most of our weapons. To kill 1 Sag guard with shootas takes 81 Shoota boyz, or 54 in Half Range. That is 432-646pts of Shoota boys to kill 50pts of Sag Guard. Not exactly..umm...Feasible. On the flipside, a couple units of Squig Riders and Kommandos can each put out D3 mortal wounds with Bomb Squigs. On the average 1st turn if I'm lucky I can get 6D3 Mortal wounds on you from Bomb Squigs.

This boils down to the old SM argument of Durability vs Damage. As durability increases, damage does as well. And in the case of durability specifically, as durability outstrips normal dmg output, players will have to find a better way to inflict dmg. So if other options were more appealing they would be used, but nobody wants to spend 10 minutes rolling hundreds of dice just to kill 1 Sag Guard.

So, Deldar have multiple 70pt units that can do it. Space Marine Heavy Intercessors can gun us down with ease, A Farseer can psyker them off the table, and the Tyranid psker unit can do it as well. I mean, it's not exactly hard to flood Sag with MWs or just just be like, here is Lelith, she did her bazillion attacks, here are your wounds.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.

??? Did I miss something? since when do LRBTs have a 4++?
Or do you mean that due to AoC they save on a 4+ against AP-3 and imply that there is nothing relevant above AP-3?

Read the sentence please.
I said "effectively". Also I'm not "implying" that there is nothing relevant above AP-3, but that such weapons are relatively rare. Mostly relics and meltas. And that is before you manage to apply cover, which is also a factor.
And yes, even with that, they still suck. If that doesnt ring an alarm bell, I don't know what else could.

Ok ok calm down calm down, he was just asking a question, we dont need the whole "EFFECTIVLY" l2read kinda commets i think.

They do still horribly suck because of the AP creep but imo guard struggle in other ways because of random number of shots. IMO if you wanna make guard good they should have a rule that says "Any weapon that fires D6 shots when determining the number of shots, results of 1 and 2 are doubled. When rolling to detemine number of shots for a weapon with 2d6 shots, results of 1 are doubled. when rolling number of shots for a weapon with d3 shots double results of 1."

As it stands would probably be better just to give them the maximum result automatically. Rolling random attacks should be rare anyways; not because of narrative but because it slows the game down. And 40k does NOT need more things slowing it down.

Heavy Intercessors are 28 PPM, last I recall.
Their best bet is a S5 36” range AP-1 (-2 in Tac doctrine) Rapid Fire Weapon.
9 of them, rapid firing at Sag Guard with no cover and while in the Tac doctrine, kill one. Which is, as a reminder, just over 250 points.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, that and weapons/abilities that completely ignore all invulns made MW spam basically the basic game in town. What good is a 2+4++4+++ if you opponent can just delete your units? It's not even MWs now. There are just guns that shoot pure F U and suddenly your tank isn't there anymore. Like what good is paying a double cost premium if your units can be deleted by another unit worth half as much? This is the main issue with 9ths power creep. Melta Marines came out and Armor saves were suddenly irrelevent. The "Ignores Invuln" rule started appearing everywhere, and suddenly invulns were irrelevant. Custodes are basically forced now into EC only lists, because the 4+++ is the only thing keeping us alive long enough to earn points back.

What 75pts unit is currently 1 shotting a unit of 3 Sag Guard? I get that you were using exaggeration here but seriously? what unit that is cheaper than Sag Guard is currently 1 shotting it with ease?

As far as Mortal wound spam? yeah, most ork lists are being FORCED to move into Mortal wound spam because 2+4++ is too hard for us to deal with with most of our weapons. To kill 1 Sag guard with shootas takes 81 Shoota boyz, or 54 in Half Range. That is 432-646pts of Shoota boys to kill 50pts of Sag Guard. Not exactly..umm...Feasible. On the flipside, a couple units of Squig Riders and Kommandos can each put out D3 mortal wounds with Bomb Squigs. On the average 1st turn if I'm lucky I can get 6D3 Mortal wounds on you from Bomb Squigs.

This boils down to the old SM argument of Durability vs Damage. As durability increases, damage does as well. And in the case of durability specifically, as durability outstrips normal dmg output, players will have to find a better way to inflict dmg. So if other options were more appealing they would be used, but nobody wants to spend 10 minutes rolling hundreds of dice just to kill 1 Sag Guard.

So, Deldar have multiple 70pt units that can do it. Space Marine Heavy Intercessors can gun us down with ease, A Farseer can psyker them off the table, and the Tyranid psker unit can do it as well. I mean, it's not exactly hard to flood Sag with MWs or just just be like, here is Lelith, she did her bazillion attacks, here are your wounds.

Heavy intercessors....A squad of 5 is 140pts. All 5, with Executor bolt rifles (The -2 2dmg variant, better at killing custards) get 5 shots, 3.3 hits, 1.65 wounds for 1.65dmg. To kill 1 Sag Guard would take 10 of them, which is 280pts killing 50. So I really don't know what you are talking about, please clarify.

As far as Deldar, give me unit names and i'll run the numbers, but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

A Farseer is a Psyker character who deals Mortal wounds, Its also a 95pt unit that can somewhat reliably kill a Sag Guard in the psychic phase, but only if he rolls well and only if they gear his powers towards dealing mortal wounds as opposed to the better option of buffing other units which is what most people do with them. So yes, a psyker who deals mortal wounds is reliable at killing Sag guard, seems like a waste though

Next in line...Nid psykers...I'm noticing a trend, so when you said lots of units can 1 shot sag guard. you meant to say character/psykers can do so and even then can't 1 shot the unit, just a model. Bud, My damn weirdboyz and wurrboyz can do that as well, does that mean they are great units or is it you using the 1 weakness your army has....and even then you can take that ridiculous katah or whatever that gives you a 4+ against that

Wait... Sagittarum Custodians are S5, W3, 2+, 4++
5 Heavy Intercessors with 4 Executor Bolt rifles (Heavy 1, 5/-2/2) and one Heavy Executor Heavy Bolter (Heavy 2, 5/-2/3) therefore kill (on average rolls) 4 x 2/3 (hit roll) x 1/2 (wound roll) x 1/2 (sv roll) x 1/2 (Custodes have 3 wounds) = 1/3 Custodes with the rifles and 1/3 with the Heavy Bolter. In other words: 15 of these Heavy Intercessors kill 2 SagCustodes in a shooting phase while costing 450 points. That does not exactly sound like "Gun them down with ease", does it?

And with units using Mortal wounds: 3 Sag Custodes are 9 wounds and due to Aegis of the emperor one needs 10.8 MWs to kill them. Just because I really don't know if such things exist (I only know the IG, and more or less the AdMech Codex): are there really units out there that do >10 MWs for under 100 points?


Edit: sorry, all of the above was in response to Fezziks comment

Wyldhunt wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Marines have gobbled up many faction identities over time. It's tiresome.

You're not wrong, but I feel like the issue here is that marine players and custodes players were both sold on the same sales pitch. Both want to be the super duper elite heavily-armored transhumans with ultra mega awesome training where each dude is worth a whole squad of guardsmen. But if marines successfully fill that niche, then you have to make custodes individually powerful to the point of feeling mechanically awkward. And if you put the custodes in that niche instead and tone down marines, then marines feel like pale comparisons.

It's the Dragonball thing. Going super saiyan goes from being awesome to being cute once the protagonist can unlock super saiyan god mode++ with extra cheese.

Togusa wrote:Personally, I don't think they ever should have been added to the game as anything, save for a single unit imperium armies could buy in the elite slot.

This. Absolutely this. If custodes had to be added as playable models, they should have been a single unit (maybe even a single model) that you can splash one of into your imperial army. That way, you can make individual custodes as powerful as you want without having to balance that statline as an entire army, AND it would make the custodes feel more rare/special. There are so few of them spread so thin that you literally can't field a whole army of them but the couple of dudes that did show up are hugely inspiring badasses.

Remember in late 7th/early 8th when you could field a custodes with a banner that impacted all IMPERIAL units? That's the direction I was hoping they'd go in.

Out of all the factions, Custodes are the one that I also feel was a mistake (as a solo army). The lore just in no way supports it, and to make it feel fluffy is pretty dangerous to game balance. I feel like even Knights are a fluffier inclusion. To be frank, I feel like an Agents of the Imperium codex should have been the direction, would include ways to add Custodes, SoS, Inquisition, Assassins, etc to your army (and not as independent forces).

That ship has long sailed though, so I'm not going to say we should go backwards and remove Custodes as an independent faction. That would be unfair and dumb.

Still think we need that Agents of the Imperium codex, though. Could still include everything except Custodes. Not gonna hold my breath, though

Speaking as a Custodes player Custodes players are some of the whiniest and most insecure players in this game.

"Nooooooooooooooo what do you mean my line infantry can't 1v1 a Space Marine captain power creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!"




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


So, Deldar have multiple 70pt units that can do it. Space Marine Heavy Intercessors can gun us down with ease, A Farseer can psyker them off the table, and the Tyranid psker unit can do it as well. I mean, it's not exactly hard to flood Sag with MWs or just just be like, here is Lelith, she did her bazillion attacks, here are your wounds.

Lelith does like one damage to a Sag guard in combat and has like a ten percent chance of killing one of them you have no idea what you're talking about my friend.

4 sanguinary guard on the charge with +1 to hit will reliably kill 3 shield guard.

this i know from loosing all 3 of my shield guard squads in 2 turns in my latest game.

Game was still close, and i probably should have won, but i had a bit of bad luck with a caladius that took 2 1/2 turns to kill an incursor squad off an objective.

To be fair, sang gard are like the most elite melee unit in all of space Marines, going against custodes basic troops.

I forget how many points sang guard are but they did just get a weird points drop also out of no where when they're already like the #1 sm melee option. There were literally like 50 other things that needed attention and sang guard weren't one of them.

Why is everyone talking about Sagittarum? They are perfectly fine.

It's wardens, allarus, aquilons, venatari, and shield-captains that are broken. They don't kill any better than an average Custodian. They're not more durable. Their mobility tricks don't matter because they can't contest objectives anyway. They're far too expensive to be throwaway Engage/RND units. Without obsec they simply have no role in a Custodes army.

Our troops aren't the problem. The problem is every other INFANTRY keyword unit in the book. Custodes actually have a decent variety of models. It's just that none of them work.

Taking away obsec from the more elite custodes was a mistake imo. I was surprised they did that in addition to the other changes

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

That was their identity. Marines stole that. Marines stole everything from everyone at this point.
If anything, marines need to shrink so they're not encroaching on everyone elses space instead of killing other armies as you'd prefer it.

No, there is a massive ampunt of overlap between Custodes and Astartes, thematically. The Astartes didn't steal much from the Custodes that they didn't already have.

In my experience it's the Custodes players who are more obsessed with being the best, both in fluff and in terms of game mechanics.

That's the thing. Marines have come to step on a lot of toes. In recent memory, they've been better at ambushes than GSC, basically as fast as eldar, and tougher than plague marines and 'crons. There is definitely a case to be made for shrinking them down and keeping them from overshadowing other factions.

That said, I'm not sure you can say they "stole" the gimmick of being elite, transhuman tough guys wearing really good armor from custodes because that's been marines' core concept since like, 3rd edition. And it has also been custodes' core concept since they were introduced in 7th. Both armies are basically trying to give off Movie Marine vibes, and inevitably one is going to do it better than the other and leave the losing faction feeling cranky. Which is why it probably would have been better to leave custodes out of the game or keep them as a single unit per army Agents of the Imperium style.

As-is, how do you want it to feel when a marine player sets up across from a custodes player? Lore-wise, the custodes should be the more elite and individually badass of the two, but being elite and individually badass was the marine army's whole thing. Should the marine player just feel like he's playing guard in comparison to the custodes for that game? My heart goes out to frustrated custodes players, but the "right" way to add them into the game was probably to never make them a full faction in the first place.

This is the truth and the right perspective as long as we keep to a dice 6 system.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"a 2+/4++ isn't cutting it anymore"
What is even happening in 40k anymore

People taking portions of a sentence out of the full context to try to rubbish someone's point, apparently.

The full sentence, after all, was "Its still basically 50 pts for a heavy bolter and a 2+/4++ really isn't cutting it anymore, even if in cover."

I'm not saying whether I agree with it or not, but taking two of the three considerations in the claim away (offense and cost), leaving only the defensive element, and then trying to rubbish just that point is hardly an argument in good faith.

@ Dysartes: I personally specifically wrote in response to Fezziks comment

So, Deldar have multiple 70pt units that can do it. Space Marine Heavy Intercessors can gun us down with ease, A Farseer can psyker them off the table, and the Tyranid psker unit can do it as well. I mean, it's not exactly hard to flood Sag with MWs or just just be like, here is Lelith, she did her bazillion attacks, here are your wounds.

And I had the impression some of the other posts in this regard where similar. I did not want to dispute if 50 points for a Heavy Bolter with 2+4++ is or is not cutting it anymore, as I don't have the practical experience to judge about that. But I wanted to dispute that there are multiple units in the <100 points range in multiple codices that have an easy time deleting a T5, W3, 2+, 4++ defensive profile.

So Demons just got a new Invuln, that can't be negated. So we literally have a ++++ system now. So yeah, hordes of bloodletters with a save that can't be altered in any way. So that's a thing now.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So Demons just got a new Invuln, that can't be negated. So we literally have a ++++ system now. So yeah, hordes of bloodletters with a save that can't be altered in any way. So that's a thing now.

Not really that relevant to this discussion, but I get the sentiment. Wait until the next Grey Knights codex where they get a "ignore the new demon save" relic or something. The progression is kinda funny though. First we had ignore invulns, now we have ignore ignore invulns and soon enough we'll get ignore ignore ignore invulns.

Edit: provided the rumor about how the new demon saves work is actually true. We don't have any confirmation aside from some reddit posts and an auspex video, nothing of that is 100% reliable.

Woops wrong thread, apols

 Dysartes wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"a 2+/4++ isn't cutting it anymore"
What is even happening in 40k anymore

People taking portions of a sentence out of the full context to try to rubbish someone's point, apparently.

The full sentence, after all, was "Its still basically 50 pts for a heavy bolter and a 2+/4++ really isn't cutting it anymore, even if in cover."

I'm not saying whether I agree with it or not, but taking two of the three considerations in the claim away (offense and cost), leaving only the defensive element, and then trying to rubbish just that point is hardly an argument in good faith.

The entire claim is incorrect to begin with.

A regular TAC Marine with a Heavy bolter (yeah I get it, not competitive) is 28pts. A Sag guard is 50. What does 22pts get you? +1 WS, BS, S, T, Wound, attack(two if you take the FREE Misercordia) , +4 Leadership and +1 to the save and a standard 4+ invuln. The Sag weapon is also Assault 3 as opposed to Heavy 3 AND has a secondary fire mode which gives it 1 extra shot at AP-3 3Dmg

To give a Marine a 4+ invuln usually requires a stormshield which is a 10pt upgrade. That alone brings the regular Marine up to 38pts, So just the stat increases and better weapons you are talking about 12pts. Its a ridiculous level of power. These guys are good at ranged combat and they are good in CC, they are incredibly durable and ridiculously fast since they don't really care about advance/fire.

The entire argument that Sag guard aren't amazing is just a bad one to start with.

I mean thats exactly how the game has been going.

first, there was armour save and invul.
Then MWs appeared to ignore the invuln.
Then came AP creep
in reaction to that invuln creep
and in reaction to that ignore invulns.
And now we have invulns that ignore ignore invulns.
I'd not be surprised if we get ignore invulns that ignore invuln ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

The entire argument that Sag guard aren't amazing is just a bad one to start with.

No its not. Sagittarum still have insufficient damage output. If you hadn't nitpicked that argument, you'd be aware of that. Or if you ever, like, played it instead of ranting on a forum.
But you have your opinion from theorycrafting, I have mine from practical experience and the top players of the world to fall back on. Im not convincing you and you DEFINITELY will not convince me. So agree to disagree.

 Thairne wrote:
I mean thats exactly how the game has been going.

first, there was armour save and invul.
Then MWs appeared to ignore the invuln.
Then came AP creep
in reaction to that invuln creep
and in reaction to that ignore invulns.
And now we have invulns that ignore ignore invulns.
I'd not be surprised if we get ignore invulns that ignore invuln ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

The entire argument that Sag guard aren't amazing is just a bad one to start with.

No its not. Sagittarum still have insufficient damage output. If you hadn't nitpicked that argument, you'd be aware of that. Or if you ever, like, played it instead of ranting on a forum.
But you have your opinion from theorycrafting, I have mine from practical experience and the top players of the world to fall back on. Im not convincing you and you DEFINITELY will not convince me. So agree to disagree.

There's a difference between "Can't compete at top tables" and "Is bad".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

So, Deldar have multiple 70pt units that can do it.

name them

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Space Marine Heavy Intercessors can gun us down with ease,

how? and its a 140pts squad minimum

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

A Farseer can psyker them off the table,

2d3 = 9 wounds through your FnP?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


and the Tyranid psker unit can do it as well.

fair enough on that one

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


I mean, it's not exactly hard to flood Sag with MWs or just just be like

good thing you get a fnp against the main weakness of your faction

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


here is Lelith, she did her bazillion attacks, here are your wounds.

you mean 8 attacks on average? At S4 -3 1? That lelith is chewing through your custodes?

 Thairne wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

The entire argument that Sag guard aren't amazing is just a bad one to start with.

No its not. Sagittarum still have insufficient damage output. If you hadn't nitpicked that argument, you'd be aware of that. Or if you ever, like, played it instead of ranting on a forum.
But you have your opinion from theorycrafting, I have mine from practical experience and the top players of the world to fall back on. Im not convincing you and you DEFINITELY will not convince me. So agree to disagree.

Or if I ever played...like the ITC events and GT's i usually attend? In fact in my last GT I played 2 Different Custodes players Including a guy who finished in the top 20% at LVO. I routinely play in tournaments against another individual who was on the Top 20 players to watch out for list at LVO. But yeah, I clearly don't play or know what I am talking about.

if they sucked like you think they do, they wouldn't make ANY appearance in custodes list, especially since Custodes have 4 troop choices. Instead though they tend to appear in almost every single list. Hayden Ford just used an MSU squad in his 4th place list at ExtVDomo. Just last month James Lee ran 5 Troop choices including 2 Sag Guard in his 3rd place list. Mark Earney did a different list but also included 5 troops and 2 of them being Sag Guard. Mark Wang finished 2nd overall at the Canadian Shield GT and he ran 4 troops choices including 3 Sag Guard. Adam Shepherd Jones finished 3rd overall at the Warhammer World GT and he ran 4 troop choices including 3 Sag Guard totalling 550pts. (2 squads of 4 and 1 of 3)

So when you say "The top players of the world to fall back on" What you meant was...your opinion since the top Custodes players all seem to like them enough to include them in their lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
There's a difference between "Can't compete at top tables" and "Is bad".

Correct, but even then he is still wrong because they are competing at the top tables and those lists are placing in the top 4 and hell, this last weekend they had 3 lists of them finishing in the top 8.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So Demons just got a new Invuln, that can't be negated. So we literally have a ++++ system now. So yeah, hordes of bloodletters with a save that can't be altered in any way. So that's a thing now.

HOly crap can i get a source on that becuase i was saying this was exactly what was going to happen, that GW would just put in a super invuln. Because if this is true, once more, i was 100% right.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So Demons just got a new Invuln, that can't be negated. So we literally have a ++++ system now. So yeah, hordes of bloodletters with a save that can't be altered in any way. So that's a thing now.

HOly crap can i get a source on that becuase i was saying this was exactly what was going to happen, that GW would just put in a super invuln. Because if this is true, once more, i was 100% right.

The source is not, to my knowledge, entirely reliable.
But what it's supposed to be is an armor save that ignores AP.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So Demons just got a new Invuln, that can't be negated. So we literally have a ++++ system now. So yeah, hordes of bloodletters with a save that can't be altered in any way. So that's a thing now.

HOly crap can i get a source on that becuase i was saying this was exactly what was going to happen, that GW would just put in a super invuln. Because if this is true, once more, i was 100% right.

The source is not, to my knowledge, entirely reliable.
But what it's supposed to be is an armor save that ignores AP.

Which is what the invuln was, until it was not. And i abosluly was saying this months ago that the rending AP system would eventually lead to this because its so much easier to power creep the current AP system.