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Oh I know they exist and they'll stay I just think they were a mistake since day 1. I don't believe they ever had room, that's my point.

If custodes players feel bad, I'm sorry but I can't see why. Their army is doing good, and even assuming that there was room for them when they were launched, they were still a super niche faction. Can't expect to receive the same support and attention of the main ones, and I'm talking Drukhari, Tyranids, AM... let alone the posterboys.

And marine players were complaining since ages that their models weren't tanky enough, so a buff on their stats was to be expected at some point.

 
   
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Denison, Iowa

I'm not on board with the whole "Custodes are so rare they shouldn't be a faction" argument. There are 10,000 Custodes, that's way more than any marine chapter.
   
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 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not on board with the whole "Custodes are so rare they shouldn't be a faction" argument. There are 10,000 Custodes, that's way more than any marine chapter.

Especially in a game where we've literally had Codex: 100 Dudes.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






I dont think pure SoS is a valid main army.
As small detachment of them I think could work, but you'll really struggle with anything over 500pts.
They have no AT, no speed, no heavy weapons, are quite expensive pts wise and basically only have mediocre melee, weak bolters and okish flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Oh I know they exist and they'll stay I just think they were a mistake since day 1. I don't believe they ever had room, that's my point.

If custodes players feel bad, I'm sorry but I can't see why. Their army is doing good, and even assuming that there was room for them when they were launched, they were still a super niche faction. Can't expect to receive the same support and attention of the main ones, and I'm talking Drukhari, Tyranids, AM... let alone the posterboys.

And marine players were complaining since ages that their models weren't tanky enough, so a buff on their stats was to be expected at some point.


Noone in this thread asked for the same support.
What "we" want is make custodes feel like custodes, not golden marines.
If I wanted that, I'd just play blood Angels.
I dont know why this is such a hard statement to understand; "the army shouldnt exist", "they have no room" either doesnt help or is factually false.
Its just that GW is stuck in their ultra narrow stat blocks that stems from D6 and even then is unwilling to use the values they have while at the same time upping everything marine which evened the field.
Custodes were defined by a few things - higher stats, higher cost, better, rare and arcane technology. Both in lore and in the rules.
Marines took all that with Primaris, Gravis and CawlTech (tm) on a broad scale. Naturally there were marine units that came even to custodes. Both in rules and the lore, but that was also conceded with examples like Sigismund.
Marines moved into the Custodes design space, both in lore and rules again, and now Custodes never had space?? Its the other way around.
Aditionally, now a freakin' Leman Russ is more durable than a Telemon Dreadnought point for point if you get him hulldown.
If you think a "rugged" WW1 style tank and a DaoT heavy Dreadnought should have the same level of resilience I don't even know how to engage that point anymore...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 11:34:06


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 Thairne wrote:

Aditionally, now a freakin' Leman Russ is more durable than a Telemon Dreadnought point for point if you get him hulldown.
If you think a "rugged" WW1 style tank and a DaoT heavy Dreadnought should have the same level of resilience I don't even know how to engage that point anymore...


Except it isn't... it's more or less as durable.

A Telemon is W14, T8, 2+,4++,6+++ and has -1 Damage for 260 points
a Leman Russ is 145 at its absolute cheapest (Eradicator canon + Heavy Bolter) and has W12, T8, 2+, AoC

A Lascanon hit takes of 12.9 points of Telemon and 14.1 points of Leman Russ
A Multimelta hit in half range takes 17.4 points of Telemon and 22.1 points of Leman Russ


And mind that this is a really bad load out for the Leman Russ and the LR is also no Tank commander.



Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the sentiment, that Custodes should feel very special, but saying "my DaoT Dreadnaught is as resilient as two Leman Russ (because looking at the points difference above, that's more or less it), that cost more in points, that is not enough" feels a bit weird.
Being more elite should not mean cheaper, just fewer models for comparable resilience/output, right?
Or to turn that question around: if you (a general you, not a specific one) would feel better if that dreadnaught would be as resilient as 3 or 4 Leman Russ, would you also feel comfortable with dropping the LR cost (or increasing the Telemons) to reflect that for each DN there are 3-4 LRs?

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Aditionally, now a freakin' Leman Russ is more durable than a Telemon Dreadnought point for point if you get him hulldown.
If you think a "rugged" WW1 style tank and a DaoT heavy Dreadnought should have the same level of resilience I don't even know how to engage that point anymore...

Out of curiosity, why?

What makes the space magic dreadnought notably resilient? Isn't 'as tough as a rugged tank (plus weapons and the ability to move)' magic enough?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:17:55


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 Blackie wrote:

So yeah, slightly different stats aside, there was no need of an imperium army of dudes that were more elite than standard marines because people were already running them.

.


Of course marines never been described as most elite imperium has...that's your basic mistake. Assuming marines is the elite of imperium. Never been despite marine fanboys like you.

Even heresy marines were chosen over 2 more elite solutions due to being easier to build larger armies. So marines were lower quality larger number solution. Doesn"t scream elite...

Face it. Marines aren't peak of imperium. Never has.

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Voss wrote:
Aditionally, now a freakin' Leman Russ is more durable than a Telemon Dreadnought point for point if you get him hulldown.
If you think a "rugged" WW1 style tank and a DaoT heavy Dreadnought should have the same level of resilience I don't even know how to engage that point anymore...

Out of curiosity, why?

What makes the space magic dreadnought notably resilient? Isn't 'as tough as a rugged tank (plus weapons and the ability to move)' magic enough?


If you're just asking for lore differences, the Custodes dreadnoughts have access to older technology (which basically means better tech given how stagnant the imperium is), antomantic shielding (which is a force field represented by an invuln) and most notably: Auramite, which is a material really nobody else in the imperium has access to and which provides better protection than ceramite or steel. It's just that the Leman russ basically has a better armor save now than the telemon, which from a balance perspective makes total sense and I'm glad GW is throwing guard a bone until they finally get their long overdue codex, but considering the context we've just established it doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people. Just like people were thrown off that the freaking baneblade tank had a worse armor save than the leman russ for the longest time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:58:41


 
   
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The Leman Russ has a better save against AP-1 and -2. Above that the Telemons Inv. Sv kicks in. And even at those AP values the Telemon still has it's 6+++ right?

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Mysterious Techpriest






My point was, and I admit I erred in that while writing, that the dreadnought does not feel superior in surivability, as it absolutely should. Its the elitest (Telemon) of the elite (dreadnoughts) of the elite (transhumans).
A LR with Hull Down has essentially the same save as a Telemon. That feels wrong, as Tiberias eloquently has put it.

Bringing "point for point" into it was my mistake. But to use the aforementioned argument, having russes having the same, if not superior, save, devalues Custodes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
The Leman Russ has a better save against AP-1 and -2. Above that the Telemons Inv. Sv kicks in. And even at those AP values the Telemon still has it's 6+++ right?


If you go hull down, which I added to the equation via orders etc., you end up with a 0+ save, which means that up and including AP-4, the Russ has a better save for -1, -2 and -3, pulls even on -4 and only "suffers" on -5. But -5 is such a rare occasion and you can count the number of weapons in the game on 2, maybe even 1, hand.
Yes, the -1D and 6+++ exist. But ignoring 2 points of AP is VERY powerful and arguably better.
So a Russ feels significantly suffer than a DAOT Dreadnought and that is wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:13:16


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I wasn't even thinking in a points perspective.

Its just that, to me, a tank is a heavily armored thing with guns. Being durable is the point.

A dreadnought (or any kind of walker) being compared to a 'rugged real world tank' is innately at a disadvantage. Tanks work. Walkers are, frankly, space magic bullcrap.

Getting them to move with any agility and armed with lots of weapons requires space magic to pass _any_ sort of real world comparison test. So making them as armored and durable as a tank (even a century old tank) on top is just taking the piss. The 'feels wrong' is definitely on the other foot to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:49:12


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Then we have entirely different expecations from the game and further discussion is basically pointless.

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Alright then.

Seems odd, since dreads have been 'medium armor' pretty consistently (usually (some exceptions) AV12 vs 14, or fewer wounds in the modern system to the point that most don't even have degrading profiles), but ok.

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How does the Telemon compare to the Leviathan these days, either in 40k or HH (if the Telemon profile has been released for HH 2.0 yet)?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Hull down is a super heavy tank ace... Leman Russ CAN'T take that... and even if they could it you would compare your dread to a HQ with basically a Warlord trait.

That's a bit unfair

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I'll be honest, I started my Custodes in the middle of 8th, because I wasn't very good at remembering all the rules and abilities, and wanted a Baby's first Army. It was relatively simple, none of the confusing phases, need for multiple detachments, complicated abilities. Comparable to my other first attempt at 40k (Guard) this was a much easier way to transition into 40k for me. Also it required FAR less of an investment. Now, I feel like Custodes are utter crap. They are a complicated mess comparably, list building is now somehow more complicated, which is odd because everything costs the same, and there are no really "great" units to build around now. Also, half the game is lost when even starting to play, because it's so stupidly easy to kill us now.

So yeah, I hate playing my custodes, and I feel like I'm finally well experienced enough to go into a new, more difficult, but possibly more rewarding, faction. I chose Blood Angels. Now I have to learn how to do Decals, and paint much smaller models (Comparably). But I will maybe someday go back to my Golden Boys, when 12th ed roles them back into Imperial Forces with Inquisition, GK, and Assassins. Like they should be.
   
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 Thairne wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


And Wulfen were T4 2W 3++/5+++, TWC were T5 2W 3++ if both equipped with shields. And in combat they were both beasts, Wulfen could even fight twice in an era in which such abilities weren't common or didn't even exist. Competitive SW used to run tons of those units. I ran between 16 and 25 of them in 7th.

So yeah, slightly different stats aside, there was no need of an imperium army of dudes that were more elite than standard marines because people were already running them.


Like I said, except some select elite units that could match the basic troops of custodes. Custodes elite could slap around the elite units of other factions with a price point to match, and this is where they should be. The army exists. You're not getting rid of them now. That line of discussion cannot lead to a conclusion, so even following that line is... strange.
I get the feel that you're just afraid of your astartes not being the best, so you're just doing the same the OP and other custodes players are doing, which makes it quite hyporcritical.

That was their identity. Marines stole that. Marines stole everything from everyone at this point.
If anything, marines need to shrink so they're not encroaching on everyone elses space instead of killing other armies as you'd prefer it.


No, there is a massive ampunt of overlap between Custodes and Astartes, thematically. The Astartes didn't steal much from the Custodes that they didn't already have.

In my experience it's the Custodes players who are more obsessed with being the best, both in fluff and in terms of game mechanics.
   
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 Thairne wrote:
I dont think pure SoS is a valid main army.
As small detachment of them I think could work, but you'll really struggle with anything over 500pts.
They have no AT, no speed, no heavy weapons, are quite expensive pts wise and basically only have mediocre melee, weak bolters and okish flamers.


I did mention looking to max out at 25PL. They seem good at that range I think.

Just for fun, you can run 2 patrols, 3 Knight-Centura, 3*9 Prosecutors, then 3*10 Vigilators and 3*10 Witch seekers, 9 Rhinos, 1 with missile for 99PL/1999 points

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 00:47:32


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Hecaton wrote:
 Thairne wrote:

That was their identity. Marines stole that. Marines stole everything from everyone at this point.
If anything, marines need to shrink so they're not encroaching on everyone elses space instead of killing other armies as you'd prefer it.


No, there is a massive ampunt of overlap between Custodes and Astartes, thematically. The Astartes didn't steal much from the Custodes that they didn't already have.

In my experience it's the Custodes players who are more obsessed with being the best, both in fluff and in terms of game mechanics.

That's the thing. Marines have come to step on a lot of toes. In recent memory, they've been better at ambushes than GSC, basically as fast as eldar, and tougher than plague marines and 'crons. There is definitely a case to be made for shrinking them down and keeping them from overshadowing other factions.

That said, I'm not sure you can say they "stole" the gimmick of being elite, transhuman tough guys wearing really good armor from custodes because that's been marines' core concept since like, 3rd edition. And it has also been custodes' core concept since they were introduced in 7th. Both armies are basically trying to give off Movie Marine vibes, and inevitably one is going to do it better than the other and leave the losing faction feeling cranky. Which is why it probably would have been better to leave custodes out of the game or keep them as a single unit per army Agents of the Imperium style.

As-is, how do you want it to feel when a marine player sets up across from a custodes player? Lore-wise, the custodes should be the more elite and individually badass of the two, but being elite and individually badass was the marine army's whole thing. Should the marine player just feel like he's playing guard in comparison to the custodes for that game? My heart goes out to frustrated custodes players, but the "right" way to add them into the game was probably to never make them a full faction in the first place.


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Kinda feeling this with the most recent changes. Custodes are awful into Armor of Contempt. All that AP1 flat 2 damage means that there is very little in the codex that can hurt a dreadnought.

The nerfs in conjunction with AoC pretty much gutted the codex. The book went from great to terrible overnight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 02:47:40


 
   
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artific3r wrote:

The book went from great to terrible overnight.


From what I heard Custodes still sit on a 55% winrate don't they? So "terrible" seems bit dramatic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 06:16:35


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 Pyroalchi wrote:
artific3r wrote:

The book went from great to terrible overnight.


From what I heard Custodes still sit on a 55% winrate don't they? So "terrible" seems bit dramatic.


The Custodes fanbase is kinda the worst for demanding being overpowered. Their main FB group was banning people who said their codex wasn't going to be underpowered at release.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
artific3r wrote:

The book went from great to terrible overnight.


From what I heard Custodes still sit on a 55% winrate don't they? So "terrible" seems bit dramatic.


The Custodes fanbase is kinda the worst for demanding being overpowered. Their main FB group was banning people who said their codex wasn't going to be underpowered at release.


We get, we get it....you don't like custodes as a faction and you don't like custodes players. Nobody demanded that they be overpowered, if you still think that is the issue after 3 pages, then you kinda missed the point.
   
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tneva82 wrote:


Of course marines never been described as most elite imperium has...that's your basic mistake. Assuming marines is the elite of imperium. Never been despite marine fanboys like you.



Marine fanboys like me? I can't stand SM . That's why I'd never play 30k, regardless of how solid or popular the game is.

I just tolerate a couple of (former, as in 9th edition) standalone chapters because I love a few of their models.

Of course I'm not a fan of custodes as well, or any other super elite faction, I can give you that .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 10:50:06


 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


Oh and for all the people saying custodes should just not exist, get fethed. I could say the same thing about your main faction and it would be just as stupid and off topic.


Yes, of course such comment would be too harsh but... Custodes were introduced at the very end of 7th, when there were tons of imperium subfactions already and even before gravis/primaris some of them (Space wolves with TWC, termies, dreads and wulfen or Deathwing/Ravenwing) were already very elite oriented with low model count. Custodes didn't really have their niche even when they were released, other than being shiny new golden knight looking marines.

I personally would hate a faction that is even more elite than custodes. It would mean 20 models at 2000 points or just 10 at 1000.... which is almost imperial knights territory. I'm not a custodes player but I think the faction is fine as it is, it's still very elite oriented but has finally the option of getting cheaper bodies as well.


Eh...custodes have existed weeeee bit longer.

Good way of demonstrating ignorance of 40k.

Can't say about 1st ed since never had that but 100% sure they existed in 2nd ed.


You know he meant introduced as their own faction, don't be That Guy.


 
   
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 Pyroalchi wrote:
artific3r wrote:

The book went from great to terrible overnight.


From what I heard Custodes still sit on a 55% winrate don't they? So "terrible" seems bit dramatic.


Imagine if they really were super elite compared to other factions, like +1T and +1/2 W vs something like the gravis dudes.... but they had 40-45% win rates. Apparently being elite in power is not enough, they also want to be elite in stats. So constantly 55-60% with 25-30 models, otherwise their faction's identity is lost and GW should burn .

 
   
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If Custodes were any more elite, they'd be Armigers and Knights.
   
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 Pyroalchi wrote:
artific3r wrote:

The book went from great to terrible overnight.


From what I heard Custodes still sit on a 55% winrate don't they? So "terrible" seems bit dramatic.


That win rate is completely propped up by a single build which spams bikes, Forgeworld contemptor dreads, and Forgeworld Caladius grav-tanks. The 90% of the book that has to do with infantry is non functional due to its reliance on AP1 and flat 2 damage. AP1 just can’t get through AoC power armor (especially in cover) and flat 2D obviously breaks when you go against anything with -1D (any dreadnought).

The reason why contemptors/bikes/caladius tanks are the only remaining build is because those are largely the only damage profiles with both AP higher than than 1 and damage higher than 2.

Before the dataslate, we were seeing all sort of neat builds with terminators, infantry, non-Trajann characters, etc… even things like Venatari had an interesting niche when all infantry got double obsec. Then the dataslate hit and all infantry outside the minimum force org requirements became useless. Then AoC dropped and further compounded the problem. AoC was the nail in the coffin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
The Leman Russ has a better save against AP-1 and -2.


Exactly. You actually highlighted one of the major problems with Custodes right here. The Leman Russ has a better save against the vast majority of armor piercing weapons in the game. Not just the Leman Russ but also terminators, paragon warsuits, sanguinary guard, victrix guard and any other 2+ save AoC unit.

The only time Custodes' 2+/4++ can make its points back is against AP4, and guess how many of those exist in 40k? Custodes now pay a massive points premium for a worse save in most cases.

So like I said, nail in the coffin. Losing obsec and defensive strats was bad enough for build variety. AoC on top of that just kills any reason to take anything other than a contemptor, a bike, or a Caladius grav-tank.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 15:43:37


 
   
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A Leman Russ *should* be more durable than Custodes jfc, it's a damn tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:

We get, we get it....you don't like custodes as a faction and you don't like custodes players. Nobody demanded that they be overpowered, if you still think that is the issue after 3 pages, then you kinda missed the point.


Custodes as a faction are fine, though certain aspects of the playerbase are suspect. But "super-soldier in power armor" is a space that both Astartes and Custodes exist in so complaining that Astartes intrude into that space is really complaining that Astartes are portrayed as super-soldiers in power armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 18:14:50


 
   
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Against armor piercing weapons....

...a Leman Russ should not be more durable than a custodes tank.

...a space marine dreadnought should not be more durable than a custodes dreadnought.

I think we can all agree on this, even Hecaton.
   
 
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