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How do!

A thread I’ve not really thought through but jumped into my forebrain from another post.

Simply put, the Imperium isn’t just vast, but made up of far flung and scattered systems. And it’s long established in the background that growing threats aren’t always identified in good order.

Two notable examples would be Ymgarl and the Hive Fleets over Tyran, and Sanctuary 101. Each of those aren’t necessarily the first time the Tyranids or Necrons menaced The Imperium, just the first time The Imperium really discovered who/what was behind it.

I suspect it’s a bizarre sliding scale. On the relatively micro scale, serial killers in Underhives are pretty much par for the course. But it’s not until the killing become widespread enough to point to Cult Activity that someone higher up might pay attention. And if a Hive, Industrial, Agri or Forge World falls silent, I suspect folk are going to notice pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things.

But if it’s on the fringes, frontier worlds etc? It may go entirely unnoticed, as they’re yet to really be woven into the wider supply and demand tapestry of The Imperium.

It is however a pretty big and vague question, so I’ll turn it over to you.

I think someone will always notice. Humans are pretty social animals and there are very few cases of truly isolated individuals that would never be missed. Whether anyone does anything about it is an entirely different matter.

In terms of getting an official response by an Imperial office, I think you are probably right. Arbites are there for bigger stuff than internecine squabbles in tue depths of the underhive.

It does seem pretty variable, and I think the Imperial authorities are more sensitive to concerning trends than sheer numbers.

For some examples from the Eisenhorn series. Spoilers for the books.

I mean, fluff wise, entire planet's and colonies have been taken over by GSC and Chaos Cults before anyone actually important noticed. A Hive spire contains millions of lives. I think someone once said Billions. If that's true, figure at least 1% of them are menial slaves/dregs that no one even bothers making sure are alive. Then factor in Homeless, beggers, and the theives, criminals, and gangers. A well setup GSC could likely kill off over 100k before people started "asking questions" "Anyone seen dave?"

short answer is: as many as it takes to threaten the stability of imperial rule. no more, no less.

Necromunda's underive is a literal free-fire zone where gang wars with thousands of combatants and hundreds of dead are basically everyday occurrences. the imperial authorities are aware of these fights, but literally do not care so long as the production quotas are met. Hell, they explicitly don't even have a rough order of magnitude figure of the population of the hives.....they couldn't tell you if thier was 1 million or 10 million or 100 millon in a given sector of the hive. food and raw materials go down, finished products come back up, thats basically all that anyone in the planetary government (such as it is) cares about.

One of the secondary hives was lost to genestealers....its treated as a more of a inconvenience they will need to up everyone elses production quotas to meet the tithe than a major crisis, and was (mostly) dealt with using local military power (a little help form the Imperial Fists, but most units were locals).

in short, on a big world, you could kill as many as you like, without attracting imperial attention.

There won't be any number to answer this, as it is so dependent on context. Depending on who, where, how, and when anything from 1 to trillions could be 'enough' to warrant notice. Consider, for example, that over 50 million people die every year IRL just as a part of normal human living.

Hell, the entire ruling government and military leadership of Gravelax had turned over to the GSC before the Administratum even noticed and was like, Hey! Stop that!.

Same could be said about the planets taken by the Tyranids initial invasion into our Galaxy. They'd gone through a number of entire WORLDs before a message got back to high command.

Point is, "people noticing" is an amorphous term. You can't "notice" every one of the 9 billion urgent messages sent to the high lords of terra every day, and most are the last gasps of entire worlds. Like, the Space marines only notice half the battles they get into because they are protecting their own worlds in their systems. For systems on the fringe, the entire system can be wiped out before anyone "notices".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Same could be said about the planets taken by the Tyranids initial invasion into our Galaxy. They'd gone through a number of entire WORLDs before a message got back to high command.

You do need to factor in the Shadow in the Warp there - by the time planets realised they needed to send a distress signal, they couldn't.

There's also the significance of WHO you're killing. Underhivers die violent deaths by the thousand every day, but shoot a few dozen administratum scribes and the Arbites will notice because their deaths are 'A Crime Against The Imperium' as they're direct Imperial 'employees'.

Yeah this is going to vary vastly on the context.


Another angle to think on is not just who dies or how many die or the nature of their death, but who observes and records the information and passes it on.


Cult activity could go undetected for years if those investigating the deaths don't have experience of dealing with cults and thus just chalk it up to crazy people, madmen, mental sickness and random murders and such.
Remembering that many worlds never feel the touch or taint of Chaos and that the Imperium suppresses information about Chaos. So many worlds will have little real understanding. It might keep going for ages until a passing Inquisitor comes calling; or until someone from the front lines has managed to make it to retirement and moves to a peaceful world and suddenly ends up getting involved (perhaps a loved one killed or a chance situation or maybe they join the local police force or such).



Also don't forget there are worlds where human life is basically a cog in a machine. Necromunda and other hive production worlds the Imperium might care not one bit so long as the machine keeps functioning even if the operators are being killed and replaced. Indeed with industrial risk and accidents it might well take considerable numbers of deaths for the overseer's to realise something is going wrong and that there's more death than can be explained by people falling into the machinery.


And yet one death on the right world at the right time investigated by the right person and the whole power of the might of the Imperium can be called ot arms to protect a world from the uprising of a cult establishing itself.

Just echoing others here, but it really depends on what exactly you mean. The last sister on Sanctuary 101 presumably knew that her sisters were dying even though the imperium at large didn't know about the attack until quite a bit later. An immortal creature could haunt a hive city killing off one hiver a month basically indefinitely without raising suspicion.

Imperial citizens die violently in hives and on frontier worlds and on ships all the time. In most cases, the dead probably had some sort of social tie to at least one other human who will eventually become aware of their disappearance/death. But those disappearances and deaths are just kind of par for the course in the imperium. While such deaths/disappearances may be reported to overseers or whatever, it doesn't mean that the overseer particularly cares. Maybe the overseer passes the statistic on to their own boss or whatever, but it doesn't mean the inquisition is going to take an interest.

And you could take out entire planets, and the imperium still might get around to noticing until the warp storms isolating you from the greater imperium dissipate a few hundred years later and someone notices you're late on your taxes.

There is local law enforcement on the vast majority of Imperial planets. They'll be dealing with the run of the mill murders and other crimes, which would be the vast majority of deaths. Even minor cults would mostly fall under their jurisdiction. The Inquisition and Arbites simply can't be everywhere and most cults will be tiny and insignificant.

I suspect the local law enforcement will often ask for assistance and have it denied because it is deemed too minor to warrant outside help. You're not going to want to have an Inquisitor spend 3 months tracking down an alleged cult that turns out to be 1 guy going around painting edgy graffiti and occasionally murdering someone.

I imagine an Inquisitor sifting through stacks of request forms from local law enforcement looking for something interesting that might be worth the time and effort.

I think the problem with the question is “before anyone notices”

If 1 person is murdered I’d expect someone will notice, even if it’s just friends and family.

If the question is how many can you kill before imperial authorities take notice then I think the question is what’s the impact of the loss of life. I imagine while planets can go dark and no one checks it out but if there’s a serious loss of production, or tithe or the planet is part of an important trading route then someone will intervene pretty quick I guesss

What's worse is that with the Imperial denial of Chaos and a lack of awareness and education, there's a good chance many local law enforcements won't even consider reporting to the higher ups about strange cultish activity and such. There are bound to be loads of crazy people who kill, do cultish things and odd happenings that are not the result of Chaos.

So the Inquisitor is likely not even getting direct requests. They have to seed worlds in their area of operations with their own operatives; they have to intercept messages and review standard reports and sift through mountains of general crime data and such.
Plus seeding worlds with their own operatives and spies also tries to get around the fact that not every world is neatly organised. Many might be totally chaotic in nature - take Necromunda, there are vast areas of each Hive City that are a law unto themselves. Where a Cult could grow for generations and the higher-ups would be totally unaware.


Even cultist activity might have to be sorted looking for things like known Chaos symbols in a myriad of other random murders, killings, sacrifices and more.

We also need to consider the role of the Adeptus Arbites.

They’re not there as a Police Force as such, more to ensure the Planetary Governor’s laws are up to snuff, don’t deviate from core tenets of Imperial Law (no snogging Xenos, stupid mutants go squish etc) and that whatever Law Enforcement exists are competent in enforcing the laws.

I’d need to look into it, but I suspect Arbites would be privy to stuff locals aren’t, including at least some knowledge of Cults and what to look for. Not necessarily in-depth, and they too may be largely shielded from the worst of the truth. But I’d wager just enough to know the patterns and that they’re to be taken seriously.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We also need to consider the role of the Adeptus Arbites.

They’re not there as a Police Force as such, more to ensure the Planetary Governor’s laws are up to snuff, don’t deviate from core tenets of Imperial Law (no snogging Xenos, stupid mutants go squish etc) and that whatever Law Enforcement exists are competent in enforcing the laws.

I’d need to look into it, but I suspect Arbites would be privy to stuff locals aren’t, including at least some knowledge of Cults and what to look for. Not necessarily in-depth, and they too may be largely shielded from the worst of the truth. But I’d wager just enough to know the patterns and that they’re to be taken seriously.

The Eisenhorn series certainly suggests Arbites have a working knowledge of cult red flags and a rudimentary understanding of Chaos as the Great Enemy. It makes sense in their role as the arm of Imperial justice over local conditions. The psychic tithe being one of the few hard Imperial rules, part of their role will be apprehending rogue psykers in the absence of more specialist forces- some basic knowledge of signs of sorcery would be needed to know which psykers could be captured to await the next Black Ship, and which need to receive the immediate judgement of the Emperor at the business end of a shotgun.

You don’t need to know about chaos to recognise cult activity. At its most simplest or, heresy is just something that is different to the established tenets of worship.

 Flinty wrote:
You don’t need to know about chaos to recognise cult activity. At its most simplest or, heresy is just something that is different to the established tenets of worship.

And the Imperium is so vast that there are many many cults and factions. Heck look at Necromunda where several gangs are basically cults.

It's why Chaos Cults are so hard to spot, they aren't out on their own, there's a sea of other cults out there. Plus nothing stops a regular non-chaos cult attracting the interests of Chaos and being corrupted.

And nothing stops someone screaming heresy at their neighbour and respectfully requesting the redemption it’s come and deliver a sermon in their own inimitable way. Unless you are big and bad enough you get stamped flat as soon as you encroach on a cult with some backing. And if your cult is that big and bad, then proper attention will be following soon after.

Arbites definitely have knowledge of cults and stuff. The Arbitrator class in Dark Heresy 1.0 had access to Forbidden Lore Cults, Heresy, Mutants, and Psykers.

But yeah, it is hard because the Imperium is full of cults. Many of which are officially recognized and sanctioned, others are unofficial but still allowed to practice. Its simply not practical to enforce hegemonic doctrine, so unless you are proven heretical you can practice openly.

This is actually the focus of a Dark Heresy module. An unsanctioned cult is gaining traction on the capital planet, particularly among the nobility but also the lower classes. The PCs are dragged into investigate because a noblewomen who recently joined has gone missing and her family believes the cult is involved. The authorities however have nothing to go on officially. The cult is a pleasure cult, they believe the Emperor wants you to be happy and should indulge in all forms of pleasure ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). This ranges from drugs, badonk-a-donk, and watching some light bloodsport murder for lols.

Anyway, the adventure says that the cult is currently unsanctioned, but is in the process of applying to become a sanctioned Imperial cult. Of course, the leadership of the cult are involved in some heretical drug and unsanctioned psyker smuggling/kidnapping. But at the end of the adventure the lower levels of the cult distance themselves and end up becoming a sanctioned cult after the rot has been cut out.

This adventure implies that unsanctioned cults are at least tolerated and allowed to openly operate, just perhaps without any official protection. I would guess that all Sanctioned Cults would have ranking and membership within, and perhaps some oversight from, the Ecclesiarchy. In exchange maybe they have some monetary support and other privileges that come from being officially recognized.

So yeah, telling a heretical cult apart from an odd, but harmless, non-heretical cult would be difficult. The Imperium allows some weird shizz, remember that Death Cults are officially sanctioned...

In-universe there’ll be different levels.

Very basic? Imperial Cult Good. Other Cult Bad. No further explanation needed or provided. Given the general standard of deliberate ignorance among the population, that’s probably more than enough. Fear The Other, Destroy The Other. Add in fiery sermons from the Ministorum and that should be enough. You know the stuff “deviate from The Emperor and you’ll be quadrabummed forever and ever”

Step up from there probably local law enforcement. They’d need to know what to look out for (8 pointed stars etc) but only in the context of “see one of these, call your supervisor). Eyes everywhere knowing what to look for, but as ever little on the why. More “if you see these, report it, as they may mean a Quadrabumming is about to happen and you don’t want to get Quadrabummed, do you?”

Next level up is a BIG step, as it’s is introducing a bit of the Why. And given the danger of such information in the wider context (unlike the real world, worshipping a different god has pretty horrific consequences for you and your planet), probably only reserved for Those That Really Need To Know. This is the stage where your eyes are open enough to just how wide scaled the threatened Quadrabumming is likely to be.

But proper in-depth knowledge (extending here to which Naughty God was being worshipped, and the likely ramifications compared to other Cults? Super rare. Super protected. Because the more someone is told, the more temptation to actively seek a pact with a given power for one’s own gain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In-universe there’ll be different levels.

Very basic? Imperial Cult Good. Other Cult Bad. No further explanation needed or provided. Given the general standard of deliberate ignorance among the population, that’s probably more than enough. Fear The Other, Destroy The Other. Add in fiery sermons from the Ministorum and that should be enough. You know the stuff “deviate from The Emperor and you’ll be quadrabummed forever and ever”

Yes, but the Imperial faith is explicitly less cohesive than, for example, modern Christianity. There is quite a LOT of difference between, say, Eastern European Orthodox, Latin American catholic and Mormonism. but all could be acceptable versions of the Imperial faith.

And the acceptability of each will be determined by the Ecclesiarch with the highest power that hears about them. Like all of the main pillars of the Imperium, nothing like a good pogrom to keep your power base loyal.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In-universe there’ll be different levels.

Very basic? Imperial Cult Good. Other Cult Bad. No further explanation needed or provided. Given the general standard of deliberate ignorance among the population, that’s probably more than enough. Fear The Other, Destroy The Other. Add in fiery sermons from the Ministorum and that should be enough. You know the stuff “deviate from The Emperor and you’ll be quadrabummed forever and ever”

Yes, but the Imperial faith is explicitly less cohesive than, for example, modern Christianity. There is quite a LOT of difference between, say, Eastern European Orthodox, Latin American catholic and Mormonism. but all could be acceptable versions of the Imperial faith.

Not sure that is noticeable to the average citizen, due to population centres and the overall centralisation of Imperial Faith.

Sure, Uphive and Downhive preaching might vary, but those populations don’t really mix and mingle. Even in the central Hive, workers don’t tend to move far from their stations.

And if memory serves, The Ecclesiarchy still has oversight. Local customs and traditions are to some degree encouraged, as it makes things easier when, for instance, a Guard Regiment is raised. Provided they central God is The Emperor, or can be spun as But One Aspect Of Him, it’s more or less good to go - within whatever passes for reason.

This is echoed in Genestealer Cults with the common motif of The Four Armed Emperor. A fatal deviation for Those In The Know, but for everyone else? Close Enough.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We also need to consider the role of the Adeptus Arbites.

They’re not there as a Police Force as such, more to ensure the Planetary Governor’s laws are up to snuff, don’t deviate from core tenets of Imperial Law (no snogging Xenos, stupid mutants go squish etc) and that whatever Law Enforcement exists are competent in enforcing the laws.

This, Arbites are more like the FBI than regular police.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I think the problem with the question is “before anyone notices”

If 1 person is murdered I’d expect someone will notice, even if it’s just friends and family.

If the question is how many can you kill before imperial authorities take notice then I think the question is what’s the impact of the loss of life. I imagine while planets can go dark and no one checks it out but if there’s a serious loss of production, or tithe or the planet is part of an important trading route then someone will intervene pretty quick I guesss

This is the answer I would have said too.

Circumstances will determine what you can get away with, always have always will.

F.e. for a state there are two really challangeing regions to enforce it's monopoly of power due to the constant loss of power through the organs of state and accessability and acceptance of softpower/ collaboration of people and of course compliance through percieved legitimacy:

Rural backwater in difficult to access area (lack of ressource called human, tightly knit communities comparatively)
Urban centers (overabundance of the ressource human, not tightly knit community at all, and or heavily close knit social groups, which are selforganised)

Above, often is not easily accessible, the far stricter social controll in these areas might facilitate however easier times to find really wierd instances and get the red flags for cult activity, however if such a region is hostile torwards your authorithy, good luck getting anything out of them, nvm that your softpower and compliance is automatically lower due to a lack of organs in such a regions.

Urban centers the size of 40k have the inverse effect, you may find a lot of people willing to be informants, helpers, etc. however the mass of people is so overwhelming that the administratum seemingly doesn't even seem able to run an effective registry of the population quite often.
Similarly whole blocks can fall under the influence of close knit groups like organised crime. And when you have whole blocks of which you barely know they exist, you have a huge social blackbox of people organising themselves in para-state organs some of which may cooperate with the state and are beneficial others attack it, f.e. your local microbank run by local workers vs the crime syndicate running a smuggling ring, incidentally both organisations are a case of breakdown of state power from a certain view.

Now imagine f.e. what a GSC cult can do on either of these scenarios, because they are not just close knit due to "culture" but rather genetics. Or a chaos cult, which operates through a psychic-indoctrination-taint. And both of these are smart enough to build up facades. These para-state acteurs are more than able, just as a common criminal syndicate, to infiltrate state organs and when they are at that level the chances of their activities being found out drop vastly, whilest their logistics can start to piggy-back of the state which is part of the reason why they are so dangerous and so powerfull (cue mexico and the PRI which basically has established a corrupt dictatorship having dealings with the syndicats as a negativ exemple).



Meanwhile the state itself and it's local organs have of course influence on how effective it is in surpressing murders f.e.
A longstanding stable democracy in a moderatly wealthy world in the IoM that suddendly gets put under military governorship from off-worlders not accustomed to the local customs may well find themselves facing growing resistance and a potential breakdown of "civilian" organs which makes enforcing compliance a massive ressource burden since you suddendly can't count on the PDF forcing you to "import" offworlders maybee.
Meanwhile that same world may run efficent without outside interference and with differing tools of governance. The case is though that the question of legitimacy is not to be underestimated in regards to effective organisation due to simply affecting compliance from the people affected by the state and doing those doing the job for the state.


TL: DR notices depend upon the ressources of the acteurs involved.
If your government / state is infiltrated f.e. by a cult, chances are that you won't notice until it is too late. Or some will notice but those will be silenced.