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Despite the lack of rules for Cult Terminators I hope Forgeworld still complete their range and make some Rubric Termies.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Regardless, I won't bother debating this any further, as you insist on bringing up more and more irrelevant issues rather than addressing my response to your initial complaint that the new codex, which we haven't seen, doesn't allow for creating Legion armies.

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Whilst I agree that Noisy's reasoning is flawed, I doubt its because of your reasoning either. I don't think "Oh noes! Everyone will stop buying if we preview our new products!" is the reason they do it nor do I think it's a valid reason for anything. Companies do previews. They show off. They generate hype. They funnel visitors to their website, or to their magazine, and lots of other things. They don't outright deny the existance of new products right up intil the point where they go on pre-order.

For instance: There's a Games Day on this weekend in the US (not sure which one). 6th Ed is out, it's the "New Black", so this is the best time to show off the starter set. The old one doesn't even have the correct rulebook any more, so even if the "they'll stop buying" issue was real it wouldn't be that big a loss. You've got a bunch of people there excited about 6th Ed, so hit 'em with the starter set. Get people excited about that. Have a panel that talks about how they designed the new minis. Show off the new minis. Run demo games. Put up big "Coming in September" posters.

But they won't. They won't even show off the Daemons that will be out in a week or two's time. As Kroot said elsewhere, they will begrudgingly and reluctantly confirm prior releases. And, as if to highlight the point of GW's absurd secrecy, there will be two tables - one for Black Library and one for Forge World - showing off upcoming and unreleased products, even a few WIP's.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Whilst I agree that Noisy's reasoning is flawed, I doubt its because of your reasoning either. I don't think "Oh noes! Everyone will stop buying if we preview our new products!" is the reason they do it nor do I think it's a valid reason for anything. Companies do previews. They show off. They generate hype. They funnel visitors to their website, or to their magazine, and lots of other things. They don't outright deny the existance of new products right up intil the point where they go on pre-order.

For instance: There's a Games Day on this weekend in the US (not sure which one). 6th Ed is out, it's the "New Black", so this is the best time to show off the starter set. The old one doesn't even have the correct rulebook any more, so even if the "they'll stop buying" issue was real it wouldn't be that big a loss. You've got a bunch of people there excited about 6th Ed, so hit 'em with the starter set. Get people excited about that. Have a panel that talks about how they designed the new minis. Show off the new minis. Run demo games. Put up big "Coming in September" posters.

But they won't. They won't even show off the Daemons that will be out in a week or two's time. As Kroot said elsewhere, they will begrudgingly and reluctantly confirm prior releases. And, as if to highlight the point of GW's absurd secrecy, there will be two tables - one for Black Library and one for Forge World - showing off upcoming and unreleased products, even a few WIP's.

Sorry, perhaps I should clarify. They are secretive because they believe it will hurt sales. Whether it is accurate or not this is what is driving their policies. I think they have come to this conclusion because of the amount of negativity they have received in the past, in large part directed from the online community, and in part because of codex leaks that ended up hurting overall sales, primarily the Tyranid codex.

That said, I think it is a bad policy. As I said earlier, I understand how they arrive at this conclusion from some of the comments that still perpetuate years old falsehoods. We could talk at great lengths about the failures of GW at reaching out to the community and marketing their products in a real and meaningful way, but like many global publicly traded companies they have shareholders to answer to. Good or bad, this is why they no longer operate like FW or BL. In other words, they don't have to be a good company, they just need to be a profitable one.

You know - I never quite understood the philosophy behind GW and the Chaos Legion armies...

They have consistently said that it is too difficult for them to create legion specific rules and fit them in a single book OR there wouldn't be enough there to create their own Codices.

Last I checked there were a half dozen or so different codices for Boyscout Marines - and each of them are only 1000 strong (give or take a few depending on how closely they are watched). That doesn't even include the various Forge World Chapters each of which have nearly a Codex worth of information on them in the Imperial Armour book that addresses them. However, they have a hard time making a good Codex for Chaos - or even better 5 good Codices for Chaos (4 mono gods and one Undivided)?

Anywho - I am sure the new Codex should be superlative...which will be a nice change from the previous one. Just something that always bothered me when my gaming was more restricted.

slightly off-topic, but Games Day used to have awesome previews of the studio projects...
the move away from that has really put a dent in the event's reputation, and hurt attendance...
the whole thing used to be a mad scrum...
now it's just a massive line at Forgeworld (who still do things the old-school way), loads of people checking out the Demon entries, and crickets...

if i wasn't chasing a Slayer Sword i would never bother with Games Day again...
Adepticon and Gen-Con still have companies doing previews, and it generates a ton of hype, as well as customer appreciation...

if the chaos minis were to be revealed in Chicago on Saturday, people would beat down the doors to get in...
ticket sales would jump, and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

i couldn't care less about the reasons for the secrecy...
i don't even care about the secrecy or release schedules, but we have watched GW shoot itself in the foot, repeatedly, for the last decade...
it's reached the point of farce...

that said, they are still producing amazing plastic kits, and i will still buy them...
i love my plastic Marine kits...
they get better, and come with more bits, with each generation...
the last version of the basic Chaos Marine box came with way more cool stuff than the previous one...
so, credit where credit is due...

now we just sit back and watch the Stupid Show continue at HQ...

cheers
jah

Starfarer wrote:Sorry, perhaps I should clarify...

My apologies. I mistook your hypothetical as an argument, and attempted to rebut. I guess I'm a little too quick to pick fights with people sometimes. @ me!

jah-joshua wrote:
[snip] and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

and that's the mentality. If GW previews/exhibits they fear withheld monies. They want you to impluse now AND in September.


I am excited to see what they do because I have some Knights of Blood on the back-burner and maybe I can get some bitz/boxes to bash a loyalist/traitor army...

jah-joshua wrote:slightly off-topic, but Games Day used to have awesome previews of the studio projects...
the move away from that has really put a dent in the event's reputation, and hurt attendance...
the whole thing used to be a mad scrum...
now it's just a massive line at Forgeworld (who still do things the old-school way), loads of people checking out the Demon entries, and crickets...

if i wasn't chasing a Slayer Sword i would never bother with Games Day again...
Adepticon and Gen-Con still have companies doing previews, and it generates a ton of hype, as well as customer appreciation...

if the chaos minis were to be revealed in Chicago on Saturday, people would beat down the doors to get in...
ticket sales would jump, and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

i couldn't care less about the reasons for the secrecy...
i don't even care about the secrecy or release schedules, but we have watched GW shoot itself in the foot, repeatedly, for the last decade...
it's reached the point of farce...

that said, they are still producing amazing plastic kits, and i will still buy them...
i love my plastic Marine kits...
they get better, and come with more bits, with each generation...
the last version of the basic Chaos Marine box came with way more cool stuff than the previous one...
so, credit where credit is due...

now we just sit back and watch the Stupid Show continue at HQ...

cheers
jah

I agree that they aren't making us hyped through for example Games Day or another happening but as you said, such previews would sell tickets, maybe they want the hype to sell models instead. If the preview comes a month in advance then the hype could have relaxed when the actual release have come and so would the sells figures. But I agree that they lose customer appreciation this way.
If codices and rules could be kept separate from models, then it could be interesting to observe if official previews of codices and rules could up the customer appreciation.
Lastly it could be interesting to see if this lower customer appreciation which we're talking about actually shows, I mean if people actually buy less.

I was excited for the Chaos release, but now it seems a bit 'meh' to me. I was really hoping for special characters for each of the original legions that gave a special ability to the whole army, for example Kharne could be rage, an alpha legion special character could be infiltrate.

I think my disappointment is due to wanting separate legion codexes.

well it looks like the mix of marks and icons will let you make decent appoximatiosn of fluffy armies.

Night Lords seems to be getting "uber" Raptors whcih makes NL Armies a viable option (i'm assumign one of the Lords mgiht make raptors scorign or something).

Word Bearers seem to eb gettign their Dark Apostles whcih will apparently buff up cultists - nice.




still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Praxiss wrote:
still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Close combat obliterators and a new daemon engine sound pretty good for our Iron Warriors.

Brother SRM wrote:

Praxiss wrote:
still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Close combat obliterators and a new daemon engine sound pretty good for our Iron Warriors.

Also a good thing about Allies is that Iron warriors now have access to all the Imperial Guard tanks

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah the Alpha Legion rules will turn them into moustache twirling villains with babies stapled to their foreheads (+1 Toughness).

That would probably be better than what we will end up with - access to a few more squads of tissue paper tough cultists and the ability to infiltrate a few more squads than any other CSM force.

...Then again what kind of rules do you want to represent the superiority of a force specializing winning by other means than a pitched battle **in a pitched battle**?

i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
havign just read Deliverance Lost there is a rather funky rule you coudl add in for Alpha legion..

"I am Alpharius"

It could work in a similar vein to MSS. On a failed test of some kind, one model in a chosen enemy unit reveals themselves to be a Alpha legionare and attacks their own unit. That model is then removed as a casualty as the unit kill the traitor in their midst.

Maybe have soemthing at the start of the game to determine how many legionaires have managed to hide in the enemy army (D6 or something?) - so you coudl attempt this test only a certain number of times per game.


..Anyone got Phil Kellys email address?

Praxiss wrote:
havign just read Deliverance Lost there is a rather funky rule you coudl add in for Alpha legion..

"I am Alpharius"

It could work in a similar vein to MSS. On a failed test of some kind, one model in a chosen enemy unit reveals themselves to be a Alpha legionare and attacks their own unit. That model is then removed as a casualty as the unit kill the traitor in their midst.

Maybe have soemthing at the start of the game to determine how many legionaires have managed to hide in the enemy army (D6 or something?) - so you coudl attempt this test only a certain number of times per game.


..Anyone got Phil Kellys email address?

And Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Tau, Daemons? How do Alpha Legionnaires masquerade as thems?

They wouldn't, and smart ass comments aside, the Legion has no problem applying direct force when necessary.

They might prefer not to, but they certainly can.

Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

That isn't generally liked by many though.

I already know I'm going to probably have to go the SM/IG Allies or IG/SM Allies route, and that's OK!

Praxiss wrote:well it looks like the mix of marks and icons will let you make decent appoximatiosn of fluffy armies.

Night Lords seems to be getting "uber" Raptors whcih makes NL Armies a viable option (i'm assumign one of the Lords mgiht make raptors scorign or something).

Word Bearers seem to eb gettign their Dark Apostles whcih will apparently buff up cultists - nice.

If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

You know what Thousand Sons need? Ignores cover special rule. The AP3 is nice, but I always find that when I field them, the enemy usually gets cover somehow. If they had ignores cover, 1k sons would be BADD-ASS

Also, everyone seems cheesed off about not being able to make single cult armies... you can do that... what you're really mad about is that you dont get some extra rules or buff for doing it. You arent mad you cant make single cult armies, cause you can, you're mad that you dont get a bonus for doing so. say that.

It sounds like they are actualyl making it a neccessity to have a fluffy army.

"You want Plague Marines as troops? Well you best take a Nurgle alligned lord to lead them then."

No More Slaanesh Dp's leading squads of Plague Marines into battle.

Good.

Phragonist wrote:If they had ignores cover, 1k sons would be BADD-ASS

According to the gentleman in the "Q&A", Ahriman has access to "most lores".

Perhaps "Perfect Timing" is in the Thousand Sons' future after all.

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

English Assassin wrote:

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

My larger point in that quote was fluffy armies are not always competitive, which is how the got the term "fluff" to begin with. My response was to someone saying, we want fluffy armies, and it looks like you can have that. To which the response was, we want them to be fluffy AND competitive, and we simply don't know if they will be or not since we know nearly nothing about the options and cost of anything in the codex.

It would be a shame to not be able build a legion as you want it, for any legion of your choosing. I'm just not that worried as Phil Kelly has shown over a number of codexes he's written that there are always lots of options for building themed armies. Whether that theme will also win tournaments is another matter entirely.

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Praxiss wrote:



still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

The LR that lets you attack through fortifications seems pretty Iron Warrior-ish to me.

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

After reading through all the rumours on page 1., there is one thing that still sticks in my mind. This is just an update to Gav's previous codex........

So, with that said, I expect great disappointment on my side and much anger on these forums once the copies go out.

Just saying.

Starfarer wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

My larger point in that quote was fluffy armies are not always competitive, which is how the got the term "fluff" to begin with. My response was to someone saying, we want fluffy armies, and it looks like you can have that. To which the response was, we want them to be fluffy AND competitive, and we simply don't know if they will be or not since we know nearly nothing about the options and cost of anything in the codex.

In which case, we are indeed in agreement.

Starfarer wrote:It would be a shame to not be able build a legion as you want it, for any legion of your choosing. I'm just not that worried as Phil Kelly has shown over a number of codexes he's written that there are always lots of options for building themed armies. Whether that theme will also win tournaments is another matter entirely.

Well, it could be worse - it could be Gav or Jervis writing the book - but then since this is Phil "I made the feral and savage Space Wolves the game's superlative gunline, also Wolfy MacLupine wolf etc." Kelly, I don't think we're entirely safe from fluff or crunch-based disappointment.