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No 1k Sons Terminators and I didn't see anything about sonic weapons for Terminators for Emperor's Children either.

You can make a theme army I guess, but here's more to a Thousand Sons army than getting +1 to your invuln save.

combat engineer wrote:After reading through all the rumours on page 1., there is one thing that still sticks in my mind. This is just an update to Gav's previous codex........

So, with that said, I expect great disappointment on my side and much anger on these forums once the copies go out.

Just saying.

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I was pretty sure that GW would be distancing themselves from the last CSM Codex.

Maybe not?

aka_mythos wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Alpha Legion got ...Dunno yet

My guess is they'll have a decent set of rules for cultist... I'd guess some sort leadership bubble to marines.

Wasn't the rumor on Faeit that undivided Lords will get Ld abilities and ways to manipulate reserves? If true, the end result when combined with Cultists (counting as AL operatives) is Alpha Legion...ish.

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:Sorry, perhaps I should clarify...

My apologies. I mistook your hypothetical as an argument, and attempted to rebut. I guess I'm a little too quick to pick fights with people sometimes. @ me!

But you wouldn't be the H.B.M.C. we all know and love without that wonderful in-your-face attitude


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Therion wrote:
I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Saldiven wrote:How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Nonsense. Red Predators are fast vehicles because the Orks say they are, everyone knows that.

But you've got a point on the rest of them.

Short version, I agree with what you are saying provided you are saying what I think you are saying and nothing I don't want you to say.

xole wrote:

Saldiven wrote:How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Nonsense. Red Predators are fast vehicles because the Orks say they are, everyone knows that.

But you've got a point on the rest of them.

Short version, I agree with what you are saying provided you are saying what I think you are saying and nothing I don't want you to say.

I think I just had an aneurysm

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

You want Thousand Sons that aren't just a couple warband units then do them as counts as Grey Knights. Many people have done this and it's great. You want Alpha Legion that isn't just stock CSM plus cultists running alongside (which is the exact same as what IW and WB would use) then use any loyalist rules or even IG rules and model some of your heavy weapon guys or heroes as Marines. You want World Eaters that aren't just couple warband units in an undivided Chaos army use SW or BA rules. TWC lords and Mephiston are already better than Daemon Princes pretty much and make perfect counts as units.

...or just use the brand new CSM book which looks to be filled with new daemon engines and chaotic creatures and other warp spawn. It seems to be the perfect book for atleast Word Bearers, Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords armies, and I'm pretty sure everything else except mono-Tzeentch will be viable too. But I'm sure this won't be enough, because even among the massive collective of Space Marine fanboys there is jealousy. Why did the Dark Green guys get a codex while the Light Green guys didn't? Unfair! We demand more Space Marines!

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

My Grey Marines with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers are Periwinkle!

Therion wrote:[...and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

That the integration of rules and fluff has been horrible abashed before doesn't necessarily mean it necessarily has to be that way. I'm sure it would be possible to write balanced and fluffy rules to distinguish the traitor legions.

Of course, this is GW, so your pessimism is far from unjustified.

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Have you been reading Mat Ward's notebooks?

Therion wrote:

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

I'm certainly glad you're happy!

I just hope that there's a decent way to represent a proper Alpha Legion supported cell without having to resort to "Allies".

Therion wrote:

...or just use the brand new CSM book which looks to be filled with new daemon engines and chaotic creatures and other warp spawn. It seems to be the perfect book for atleast Word Bearers, Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords armies, and I'm pretty sure everything else except mono-Tzeentch will be viable too. But I'm sure this won't be enough, because even among the massive collective of Space Marine fanboys there is jealousy. Why did the Dark Green guys get a codex while the Light Green guys didn't? Unfair! We demand more Space Marines!

Actually, one new daemon engine, one obliterator derivative, and a dragon. No new named characters. Wow, that is such bold innovation and makes things so absurdly different!

Like it or not, the fluff already has tons of different Legions that have wildly different themes, tactics and natures. I don't fault you for worrying about MeQ-proliferation, but CSM players should not be faulted for actually wanting to be able to field an Iron Warriors force close to what they read about in Storm of Iron or a terrorizing Night lord force modeled like the one they loved in Soul Hunter, and wanting it to be viable.

As for using other codices for your chaos troops, that is severely frowned upon in my group and immensely lazy design. If it catches, eventually the game will be all proxies-as-Space Wolves fighting the odd fully Ork or Necron player.

dont forget the possible raptor derivative, cultists, spikey chaplain and spiky tech marine.
I personally dont like when people use one clearly "chaos" army and then use the space wolves rules. This rankles me the same way that the use of blood angels rules alternating with C:SM rules for the same Ravengaurd force does. I am fine with converted counts as armies but people who jump around using whatever dex best suites their needs for their MEQ annoy me.
That is all.

Praxiss wrote:i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)

At first glance I read this as quad-raped and couldn't stop laughing I guess you all know I am a true follower of darkness.

Red Corsair wrote:

Praxiss wrote:i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)

At first glance I read this as quad-raped and couldn't stop laughing I guess you all know I am a true follower of darkness.

Snicker ,

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

Their rules were written before the new blood angels codex. These new CSM codex is coming out after the blood angels codex

Sephyr wrote:Actually, one new daemon engine, one obliterator derivative, and a dragon. No new named characters. Wow, that is such bold innovation and makes things so absurdly different!

I thought the Daemon engine box was a dual kit. I'm also assuming the shooty Obliterators get new models to go with new rules too, so together with the Dragon and Cultists that's six very Chaos specific new units. That combined with hopefully competitive daemonic Raptors (iirc not the same as ordinary Chaos Assault Marines / Raptors) and Possessed already makes a lot of flashy new stuff. Chaos already had quite a few units so I don't think the codex will be lacking in flexibility as long as everything is pointed competitively.

As far as Alpha Legion is concerned, it's really hard to accurately represent terrorist cells on a miniature tabletop. Afterall their subterfuge and plotting has already gone out of the window since they've been dragged to a battlefield against an army of equal size. The way these types of spec ops armies have been represented hasn't been very well liked. Some of us might still remember the Alaitoc Disruption Table, for example. I think being Alpha Legion is more of a backstory for your army than an actual tabletop ability or quality.

Phragonist wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

Their rules were written before the new blood angels codex. These new CSM codex is coming out after the blood angels codex

And we didn't have Rage until 6th edition. If that's what they intended they would've added the rule to Black Templars too, no?

Alpharius wrote:Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

You know what would be cool, a rule like:

"I'm Alpharius!" - Alpha Legion characters never have to accept challenges unless forced to do so as they intentionally blend in with the rest of their squad.


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Therion wrote:Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

You know what would be cool, a rule like:

"I'm Alpharius!" - Alpha Legion characters never have to accept challenges unless forced to do so as they intentionally blend in with the rest of their squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

True enough, we just some minor changes, we'd even accept Special Characters that grant special armywide rules like C:SM, we'd prefer lords with marks/X Legion, but still we just want actual legion rules to go with our chaos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

Pathetic attempt at trolling. My response, the one that you're selectively quoting, was to a single poster who claimed painting loyalist Marines 'red' or 'light blue' gives them free bonuses because those colors have army books and implied that Chaos legions should follow suit. My reply has nothing to do with what you or anyone else in this thread want your Chaos Marines to be.

If you need help in reading comprehension I'll repeat: The Legion rules have failed each time GW has attempted to write them. They belong to an era where even loyalist Space Marines had very few differences except those printed on a single 'special rules' page, and all Craftworlds had special rule pages as well. The fact that various Space Marine chapters had codices at all during that era was a travesty because all the necessary rules could be fit under a few paragraphs. Noone even painted their Marines in the chapter colours that they were cherry picking free special abilities from. There has never been a Legion army book and there won't be one in the foreseeable future, but I don't need to go back to 'Salamanders get free X, Iron Warriors get free Y, Raven Guard get free Z' to be able to enjoy my Space Marines.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:we'd even accept Special Characters that grant special armywide rules like C:SM,

C:SM is 4 years old. If the next edition of C:SM operates the same way or increases the amount of chapter special rules (while the C:CSM has none) then there's an inconsistency that can only be explained with GW not really believing that traitor legions have meaningfully different and distinguishable traits. Untill then we'll just have to wait and see. I'm expecting and hoping that those army wide special rules are gone altogether.

all I can say is, I look forward to this and what it brings.

Therion wrote:You want Thousand Sons that aren't just a couple warband units then do them as counts as Grey Knights. Many people have done this and it's great. You want Alpha Legion that isn't just stock CSM plus cultists running alongside (which is the exact same as what IW and WB would use) then use any loyalist rules or even IG rules and model some of your heavy weapon guys or heroes as Marines. You want World Eaters that aren't just couple warband units in an undivided Chaos army use SW or BA rules. TWC lords and Mephiston are already better than Daemon Princes pretty much and make perfect counts as units.

Yes, currently loyalist codices are so numerous and varied it is actually quite difficult to come up with a CSM army concept that wouldn't be achieved more effectively by taking some loyalist codex with 'counts as'. And now that every loyalist codex can ally with over half the armies in the game this becomes even more pronounced. I fully expect this phenomenon to continue with the release of the new Chaos codex.

Honestly, making a CSM codex that can cover all the legions better than "counts as" SM is a pretty tall order, maybe nearly impossible. In fact, instead of putting new rules in the codex they should have just re-released the SM codex with a single new special rule making all loyalist SM and Chaos Daemons brothers in arms. One codex in the bank. NEXT CODEX.

Therion wrote:I thought the Daemon engine box was a dual kit. I'm also assuming the shooty Obliterators get new models to go with new rules too, so together with the Dragon and Cultists that's six very Chaos specific new units.

Taking a unit that could do X and Y, and splitting it into 2 units, one of which can do X and the other Y does not really count as adding a new unit.

I don't know if anyone took notice but inside the back cover of the new WD there is a picture of a DA Librarian fighting a CSM, I wonder if this means that the CSM will actually be next month or we are looking at the release of the starter set.

Picture or artwork?

I really dont think we will ever see legion specific codex, because i think loyalists are far more popular than traitors. There just isnt a big enough demand. Sure the relatively small number of chaos players demand it, but GW has no doubt done the calculus and they are taking the most economic route possible to make money.

If the special characters rules (as have been suggested) allow certain units to be taken as troops, juggle the force org chart etc. I would be pretty happy. As long as marks are fixed so that i can make marked troops with similar abilities to cult troops, i will be really happy.

Scottywan82 wrote:Picture or artwork?

Artwork.

I think someone mentioned it was artwork from the Dark Angels codex; the librarian page... though I don't have a copy to hand to confirm/deny that

endtransmission wrote:I think someone mentioned it was artwork from the Dark Angels codex; the librarian page... though I don't have a copy to hand to confirm/deny that

It is from the Dark Angels codex.