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Shadowkin would be great, but we might just be getting an expansion on the rest of the shadowy DoK Warcry Warband. Then again I'd honestly be expecting them and the Scions of Flame to be out too soon for being worth to include as a main feature of the preview.

I'm genuinely shocked Scions aren't out yet...but Khainite Shadowstalkers were supposed to be the 'first look' of something new.

I'm thinking "Broken Realms" will apply to WarCry and "Shadow" to Malerion and his gits.

I doubt the there will be any Lumineth previews coming up. I think what has been revealed is what Lumineth are going to be for a while. Which is fine, once the models are released, I have a lot of painting ahead of me. I also would be mildly surprised if GW revealed a new AoS faction next week. Doubly surprised if it was any kind of aelf as it seems that risk killing excitement for the Lumineth weeks before their models are available.

You never know, don't forget in theory we'd have had Luminoth for a few months by now if things were "normal".

They seem to be all over the place with patterns and releases currently.

The OBR release kind of caught people off guard as they were a lot cheaper than expected.
They also didn’t have some giant critter like every army had got previously.
Katakros was the closest to that but they tend to make big expensive kits dual/tri use to force more sales.

Was honestly expecting a big bone giant/dragon by now for them.

They got a giant trebuchet

That said I'm also hoping for bone dragon!

I think the surprised with Bonereapers is that with all the factions GW has teased and clearly has plans for, Reapers weren't on that list at all until they were released. Soulblight (vampires), something for Destruction, Skeletons, Shadow Aelves and Light Aelves (Luminoth weren't released back when Reapers appeared). There's a good chunk of things that people were expecting then suddenly REAPERS. I'm not going to complain though, I love the reapers.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

ccs wrote:
(shrugs) I don't recall anything stopping me from rolling on the charts & customizing Zarbag. So I don't see a reason to not use the DoK, the Sylvanth, etc. as the squads they are.

There's nothing stopping you from house ruling whatever you want, I am just explaining a design element behind the official releases.

No doubt you can link to gw explaining the design elements of how they decide wich of these units to include/exclude.

 Overread wrote:
They got a giant trebuchet

That said I'm also hoping for bone dragon!

I think the surprised with Bonereapers is that with all the factions GW has teased and clearly has plans for, Reapers weren't on that list at all until they were released. Soulblight (vampires), something for Destruction, Skeletons, Shadow Aelves and Light Aelves (Luminoth weren't released back when Reapers appeared). There's a good chunk of things that people were expecting then suddenly REAPERS. I'm not going to complain though, I love the reapers.

I honestly don’t know how I missed that.
I blame being awake since 5am lol.

I’d hope for a bone dragon but I think the zombie dragon is already pretty close.
I don’t see them tweaking it to look similar.

That and we’ve lost a ton of dragon kits in the last year or so.
I’m guessing GW wants to move away from typical fantasy and create (and CW) their own beasts.

Did expect a giant of some sorts though.
They are heavily combat focused so a giant construct like a stalker could have worked well.

Zombie dragon is totally different. It's got bits of untidy flesh hanging off it and its rotting! Now a proper bone construct dragon would be neat and clean and perfectly built. It would be powerful and full of skulls and a majestic work of Ossiarch creation.

So it would look like the mortarch mounts we already have?
I just think it’s a bit too close to either for them to do it.

I’d love to see it, don’t get me wrong.

But they’d essentially just be making one of those mounts bigger and giving them wings.
Not sure how OBR would have useable wings though since they wouldn’t have a membrane like substance.

Jackal90 wrote:

Not sure how OBR would have useable wings though since they wouldn’t have a membrane like substance.

Morghasts manage

I'd say it would be a large monster without rider. It could be a straight dragon or they could go wild with something like a hydra creation (very ossiarch to take the idea of a dragon and then stick more heads on it).
There's dragon constructs in the Gotrek novel Ghoulslayer and whilst they aren't ossiarchs it sets the idea that at least someone in GW still likes dragons and has entertained the idea of a dragon construct mount/creature.

Morghasts are a hybrid though.
They share barely any aesthetics with OBR other than being skeletal.

The armour is completely different.
Weapon styles are different.
They use spirit like designs, like soulblight/NH.
So they are more carried by spirits than winged flyers.


There are some amazing designs and ideas they can work with.
Honestly do hope it becomes a reality.
Just very sceptical as it’s very much between the lines.


However, if the sons of behemat are indeed allies with all like we have been led to believe, there’s a good stand in lol.

There's a spirits on most of the leader units for Ossiarchs. The cavalry leader has a spirit host unit; the one with the walking chair another and the reaper is pulling a spirit off its blade into a vile.

So Morghasts do generally fit. Their chest plated armour is also very similar to that worn by Mortek Guard. They even feature the gemstones with multiple faced sides.

I'd say Morghasts fit perfectly into the army; some diversity sure, but they fit into the general themes of the force in being melded and formed of bone instead of being born. They are built; so within building there will be some variations.

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

ccs wrote:
(shrugs) I don't recall anything stopping me from rolling on the charts & customizing Zarbag. So I don't see a reason to not use the DoK, the Sylvanth, etc. as the squads they are.

There's nothing stopping you from house ruling whatever you want, I am just explaining a design element behind the official releases.

No doubt you can link to gw explaining the design elements of how they decide wich of these units to include/exclude.

I that would be a bit overkill for something which amounts to detailing what lies between points A and C.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
There's a spirits on most of the leader units for Ossiarchs. The cavalry leader has a spirit host unit; the one with the walking chair another and the reaper is pulling a spirit off its blade into a vile.

So Morghasts do generally fit. Their chest plated armour is also very similar to that worn by Mortek Guard. They even feature the gemstones with multiple faced sides.

I'd say Morghasts fit perfectly into the army; some diversity sure, but they fit into the general themes of the force in being melded and formed of bone instead of being born. They are built; so within building there will be some variations.

I like how the Morghasts do double-duty in multiple armies, I feel it was executed well in fluff and aesthetic. I imagine a bone dragon could do similar. Imagine one with options for an OBR rider or Soulblight rider!

I feel like a Bone Dragon is at odds with the more... 'military machine' vibe the Ossiarchs have. That's not to say a giant flying monster isn't practical, but the larger Ossiarch kits feel like they each have a defined battlefield role than 'fantasy monster that rains death' - Harvesters pick up bones, Crawlers are artillery, etc. I don't think a Bone Dragon would be out of place, but at the same time something like a giant, unliving siege engine feels more fitting to them.

In a setting with dragons, eagles, airships, zombie dragons, giant terror bats, floating turtles, demons, etc... A flying unit of your own that's a huge bone construct dragon with the general view of gaining air superiority is a very sensible investment of bone and souls.

Especially when your ground forces (as they currently are) lack any kind of ground to air weapons. The only ranged options are magic, one gun on the harvester (which is more of a bone-shot-gun) and the catapult - which isn't really suited for targeting air units.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I feel like a Bone Dragon is at odds with the more... 'military machine' vibe the Ossiarchs have. That's not to say a giant flying monster isn't practical, but the larger Ossiarch kits feel like they each have a defined battlefield role than 'fantasy monster that rains death' - Harvesters pick up bones, Crawlers are artillery, etc. I don't think a Bone Dragon would be out of place, but at the same time something like a giant, unliving siege engine feels more fitting to them.

In a world where dragons exist, patterning a siege engine after a dragon isn't that far afield. A lot depends on what you're seeking to have the siege engine do.

A flying heavy construct would be good for clearing ramparts or even getting behind walls to the crunchy goodness behind it.

However, a tank-like construct to bash down doors and walls wouldn't really fit the dragons of Warhammer. The dragons tend to be more worm-like than the standard western dragon is. If that's what you were thinking, I agree.

GW dragons like the Star Drake a bit less worm/serpent like. Most of the original serpentine dragon designs were mostly due to the fact that everything was metal and making a thick chunky dragon would have been prohibitively expensive. Forgeworld had a few resin dragons and chunkier ones (sadly most of them are gone now); but otherwise your GW dragon was very much a serpent

Hm, I think Arbitrator has a pretty wise observation there. But I also think Overread has a point about OBR lacking in anti-air. I suppose there is also the matter where there is not as much in the way of bones to harvest in the skies, relatively speaking. Sky creatures would also be likely to have less dense bones (see the hollow bones of birds) which would simply work out to less material.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Hm, I think Arbitrator has a pretty wise observation there. But I also think Overread has a point about OBR lacking in anti-air. I suppose there is also the matter where there is not as much in the way of bones to harvest in the skies, relatively speaking. Sky creatures would also be likely to have less dense bones (see the hollow bones of birds) which would simply work out to less material.

Indeed. Anti-air can take on several different aspects.

One is direct counter, aka "fighter/pursuit/interceptor" types, which would include types like Harpies, Carrion, and actual Dragons.

The other is ground-based, such as flack, or in the case of the setting, arrows and ballistas.

For some reason GW has been loath to give the Undead anything ranged that doesn't involve an arc or magic since they more or less dropped the Kings of Khemri. I think having archers would be the more in character for a militant group, but also having bony "valkyrie" type (winged small infantry) and "dragon" type units would also be fitting instead of relying solely on the Morghast. Otherwise they'd be relying on the bats of the Vampires or zombie dragons of the Flesh-eaters to fill those roles.

I feel like if we ever get a return to form for the Skeleton Hordes and the like, we'd see archers there.

I have wondered why GW is so against undead having conventional ranged weapons. The last miniature release with 'normal' ranged was... ushabti with bows I think. Before that it was basic skeleton archers & chariots afaik. I would count the catapult(s) except they don't fire normal ammo. IMO missed opportunity with the OBR one to do multiple warscrolls based on what ammunition it brought; a cheap version firing normal ammo and higher point elite versions with the magic stuff.

There were Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horse Archers, and Chariots.

There were also the Storm of Chaos Sylvania list which got you undead/Sylvanian peasant levies that could take crossbows IIRC.

As for why...who knows. If I had to guess, it's because it wasn't really considered an 'undead-y' thing?

In general if you look at a lot of the newer AoS armies they are quite short on ranged options. Even where they are present they are "elite" rather than battleline style archery units. Luminoth buck the trend a bit by having some actual regular archers!

I kind of get the feeling that its easier for them to balance the game around close combat and then tease in archery and more ranged options. I think the team behind AoS is cautious that now the rank and file is gone; they have to ease ranged in carefully otherwise we can end up with a situation where either ranged overpowers (like 40K suffers from) or where close combat ends up overcompensating.

I think GW is wary of doing ranged stuff in general that isn't Order based to be honest. Destruction and Chaos also don't have many viable ranged options to begin with, since outside of some outliers, ranged armies seem to be largely monopolized by Order. I guess part of it has to do with how LoS works differently in AoS and they don't want to port too much of the 40k dakka-oriented environment into the high fantasy aspect of the game.

That theory would hold weight if they didn't gut two of the most iconic ranged armies(Wood Elves and Dwarfs).

Overread has a point in that it seems to want to be more 'look! elite!' for ranged by and large. Look at Stormcast. The Judicators(archers) are 'elite', the Vanguard Hunters and Raptors are 'elite', and the Castigators are 'elite'.

But Vanguard Hunters are kinda trash, with a handbow instead of an actual huntsman styled weapon. They feel like they were intended to be some kind of skirmisher rather than a hunter/ranged unit.

Lumineth and Idoneth both have a 'regular' Archer unit(Sentinels for Lumineth and Reavers for Idoneth). The Sentinels are still considered a bit 'elite' and so are the Reavers.

Destruction and Chaos aren't really "lacking for ranged" options, by the by. It just tends to be incidental to something else. Things like Troll Vomit or Gargants throwing rocks have long been the bread and butter of Chaos and Destruction factions.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There were Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horse Archers, and Chariots.

There were also the Storm of Chaos Sylvania list which got you undead/Sylvanian peasant levies that could take crossbows IIRC.

As for why...who knows. If I had to guess, it's because it wasn't really considered an 'undead-y' thing?

Skeleton Catapults are old school as well

Skaven tend to be the shooty Chaos army

Chaos has few ranged units only because one army was made into four - the Demons. The result being that armies like Slaanesh wound up without any ranged options because originally the army was designed to work with other components.

That said Skaven has a huge wealth of ranged options being as they basically survived the End times pretty much fully intact.


Also Stormcast are sort of poor to use as an example because the whole army is mostly built around elite styles. Not quite as elite as, say, Ossiarchs, but you can certainly get that feeling form the Stormcast.

Vanguard Hunters are secondary battleline skirmishers, they aren't a dedicated ranged unit like the others you mentioned. I would also say that by SCE standards both they and Castrators are not elite. Even Judicators are middle ground (but within the context of a more elite army). Compare per-model point cost to paladins, Raptors, etc.

That is just semantics though, the broader point of ranged being more elite holds true. I would say this has at least some correlation to reality though. Still, I don't think I am alone in wanting some more 'basic dudes with basic weapons' in the game, particularly of the ranged variety.

 Kanluwen wrote:
That theory would hold weight if they didn't gut two of the most iconic ranged armies(Wood Elves and Dwarfs).

Overread has a point in that it seems to want to be more 'look! elite!' for ranged by and large. Look at Stormcast. The Judicators(archers) are 'elite', the Vanguard Hunters and Raptors are 'elite', and the Castigators are 'elite'.

But Vanguard Hunters are kinda trash, with a handbow instead of an actual huntsman styled weapon. They feel like they were intended to be some kind of skirmisher rather than a hunter/ranged unit.

Lumineth and Idoneth both have a 'regular' Archer unit(Sentinels for Lumineth and Reavers for Idoneth). The Sentinels are still considered a bit 'elite' and so are the Reavers.

Destruction and Chaos aren't really "lacking for ranged" options, by the by. It just tends to be incidental to something else. Things like Troll Vomit or Gargants throwing rocks have long been the bread and butter of Chaos and Destruction factions.

I mean if you count troll vomit as an example of ranged options in Destruction, I think you're kind of proving my point. That's the equivalent of saying Nurgle Chaos Daemons in 40k are a viable "ranged" mono-faction because the Plague Drones have their 12" 2 shot S4 weapon. If you break down Destruction, Orruk Warclans have no range to speak of beyond SO Arrer Boyz (who have been significantly nerfed since their original incarnation in terms of the Kunnin Rukk from the previous edition and gain no ranged buffs with Big WAAAGH! or baseline Bonesplitter Rules) and (since you're being very nitpicky) the "yell" attack of the Maw Krusha. Gloomspite Gitz really only have Night Goblins with bows, which generally don't synergize as well as their Stabba brethren since most GG rules buff CC. Troll vomit is 6" range and one shot per guy, so if you think that's something people take Trolls for, you sir are being the "troll" .The most Destruction has is with Ogor Mawtribes with their Leadbelchers, and other shooting options, that lets you actually have an army built around their ability to shoot. But that's basically one army list for a subfaction within one army within the entirety of the Destruction faction. I'm not saying that every Destruction army needs a viable ranged list, but it's very clear that the design team wants to avoid having the breadth of ranged options that Orcs and Goblins used to have with all their goblin artillery.

In contrast, Cities of Sigmar alone shows the disparity between Order and the other factions when it comes to having both multiple and consistent ranged options, between handgunners/crossbowmen for Freeguild, Darkshards for Darkling Coven, Sisters of the Watch, Irondrakes, etc. They're also one of the few factions with multiple artillery options still available, between the Steam Tank and the other former Empire big guns. I know that part of this is a legacy of having all the former Old World factions mushed into one book, but the fact that they let them still keep them definitely speaks volumes.

The newer Order army ranged units are definitely more on the elite scale of things, that I don't argue. But the majority actually seem to have a place in their armies as backfield fire support or being able to actually have army lists built around them versus the very token ranged units given to Destruction and Chaos that usually lack the synergy with the army rules and other units to be worth considering over just going all in CC than a combined arms approach.