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 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

Well, that explains core and helps neuter marines a lot.


Obviously we need to see how this plays out, especially with regards to which units do and don't get the "Core" keyword...

That being said I definitely see this as a net positive. On paper it seems like a happy middle ground between the "remove all auras" crowd and the "stack rerolls on rerolls on rerolls" crowd.



This seems like a pretty positive change overall, and could have some pretty huge ramifications.

This isn't going to affect Necrons much, since nearly everything for us is moving to target abilities. So overall a Netbuff for Necrons it looks like.

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Across the Rubicon

The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:11:03


   
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Dudeface wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Auras are broken, so lets add another layer of rules to patch over it!'


I'm sure instead of using keywords you can write a list of affected units on the dataslate of each unit if that takes a layer off for you.


Let's keep the keywords - they help with future-proofing.

...like for the next SM wave

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The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.

UH yeah those aren't dangerous. Have you ever actually ran the math in those? Hell, TransArqs can't even move if they wanna shoot too!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Looks like the Royal Warden is also gaining relentless March in the new codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 18:07:11


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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



9e is planet bowling ball ed though with los being more easily gained than in 8e

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tneva82 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



9e is planet bowling ball ed though with los being more easily gained than in 8e


Use more obscuring terrain? I don't think anyone else has had this complaint tbh.
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



9e is planet bowling ball ed though with los being more easily gained than in 8e


I'm assuming you're comparing houseruled 8e (ITC) with core 9e?

Because IIRC there is no rule that prevents TLOS in core 8e.

If so, why not just choose to run the exact same 8e houserule in 9e? Or tweak the Obscuring trait in some other way, for example removing the clause that causes it to cease to be when a model enters the area terrain border?

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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



Tell that to my 4 wound T3, 3+ 6++ imagifiers. Sure, they're not out there acing captains or anything but weak buff characters are lunch to the few good sniper units in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sasori wrote:
 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

Well, that explains core and helps neuter marines a lot.


Obviously we need to see how this plays out, especially with regards to which units do and don't get the "Core" keyword...

That being said I definitely see this as a net positive. On paper it seems like a happy middle ground between the "remove all auras" crowd and the "stack rerolls on rerolls on rerolls" crowd.



This seems like a pretty positive change overall, and could have some pretty huge ramifications.

This isn't going to affect Necrons much, since nearly everything for us is moving to target abilities. So overall a Netbuff for Necrons it looks like.


Don't take warhammer community calling out 'aura' abilities as gospel. It's still entirely possible that my will be done ALSO only applies to core now. We won't know until we see the new rule printed in the new codex.

What I will say is that this (barring points adjustments) is a deathnell for a lot of offensive vehicles. The executioner was already trash, if it doesn't get a significant bit of help, being stuck with it's own ballistics skill (especially after it degrades) will make it just tragic. For sisters, retributors are very likely to get CORE and Exorcists are very UNLIKELY to get core, which honestly pushes exorcists out of contention for the most part. Still better than a lot of other army's long range firepower, but just not able to stand up to the newly massively deadly, massively resilient, retributors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 18:57:26


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Honestly I think overall this is good for the game. Also makes me glad that I was stupid enough to try running chaos space marine squads in 7th edition because with all the cultist slamming going on with each rules update ain’t no way in the warp that cultists are getting the core keyword. RIP black legion/IW cultist swarm armies.

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ERJAK wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



Tell that to my 4 wound T3, 3+ 6++ imagifiers. Sure, they're not out there acing captains or anything but weak buff characters are lunch to the few good sniper units in the game.




If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.

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 Platuan4th wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There really aren't any dangerous snipers though.

SM Eliminators and the AdMech Transuranic Arquebus say hello.


Howdy. There aren't any really dangerous snipers.

Eliminators are more paper tigers than the dangerous snipers than they were believed to be last year. Made more so be the way 9th works in that an army is likely going to have to spend CP as they use up Heavy Support slots to take an appreciable amount to actually be dangerous. And still they have a pretty good chance of costing more resources than the opposing faction. Unless the opponent is going an all-their-eggs-in-the-HQ-basket without redundancies. I don't think I have had a game yet where I felt my Eliminators weren't kinda a waste, and I don't think I haven't ever not fielded them. Maybe if I could convince my opponent to believe they are as dangerous as you believe at least the could be a distraction carnifex.

Arquebuses are eve worse. They can't Move, like at all, and shoot. So getting shot by one is either planet bowling ball or the opponent taking the risk of it not hitting. I don't pay that close attention to Admech lists, but I can't remember the last time I saw one with arquebuses in them since the weapon tends to be more restrictive than useful for using rangers.



Tell that to my 4 wound T3, 3+ 6++ imagifiers. Sure, they're not out there acing captains or anything but weak buff characters are lunch to the few good sniper units in the game.




If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.



It's not always about just killing an equal number of points though. If you can take out a lynchpin unit that provides a large buff, that can be much more impact than just it's points value.

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Yeah but what's the price for those Eliminators compared to the cost of the Imagifier? Chances are the character is a LOT cheaper and you get multiples of them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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UK

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah but what's the price for those Eliminators compared to the cost of the Imagifier? Chances are the character is a LOT cheaper and you get multiples of them.


Imagifier is 45pts and good chance has CP spent on her.

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 Platuan4th wrote:

If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.


Its an excellent return on investment if the Imagifier is a Valorous Heart anchor thats keeping her entire army ignoring AP2.

Character removal isnt about raw points return. It's about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.


Its an excellent return on investment if the Imagifier is a Valorous Heart anchor thats keeping her entire army ignoring AP2.

Character removal isnt about raw points return. It's about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.


I rely on my 2W T3 4++ 55pt(or whatever he is now) warlock to cast protect on my 300 blobb of wraiths or jinxing your blob of XYZ/ Titanic unit and using seer council strat with his T3 4W 4++ farseer buddy.

You kill that 2W HQ and my army looses a very significant chunk of how it works..

Maybe people have been playing Marines so much they don't understand other armies NEED support for their hq/character for most of their codex units to function properly...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:36:31


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Fargo, ND USA

It's probably more that we're used to seeing people build redundancy into their lists where taking out ONE cheap buffer isn't the biggest deal because there's 1-2 more of the same one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:41:26


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Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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 Platuan4th wrote:
It's probably more that we're used to seeing people build redundancy into their lists where taking out ONE cheap buffer isn't the biggest deal because there's 1-2 more of the same one.


And spend more pts on over costed 2W t3 body? Then in turn have less pts to spend on already inefficient units that don't work on their own..
if you can snipe one 2W warlock you can spine two...

Of course there are ways around it It means you have to use terrain, transports and deployment to counter what your opponent is doing which by virtue of them taking eliminators/snipy intercessors/equivalent sniper might pay for them without having to fire a single shot.

Sniping t3 low wound models is very doable with most dedicated sniper units. Gets tricky as soon as you move up to anything beefier.
I made a for fun list with 3 squads of rangers, illic, and a snipy reaper launcher autarch before legends and between them they struggled to pop a single DG/SM character. Same list vs guard and I was sniping their dudes all day long.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 22:02:32


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Argive wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.


Its an excellent return on investment if the Imagifier is a Valorous Heart anchor thats keeping her entire army ignoring AP2.

Character removal isnt about raw points return. It's about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.


I rely on my 2W T3 4++ 55pt(or whatever he is now) warlock to cast protect on my 300 blobb of wraiths or jinxing your blob of XYZ/ Titanic unit and using seer council strat with his T3 4W 4++ farseer buddy.

You kill that 2W HQ and my army looses a very significant chunk of how it works..

Maybe people have been playing Marines so much they don't understand other armies NEED support for their hq/character for most of their codex units to function properly...

A W2 T3 model at 55 points is so overcosted to begin with I dunno if that's a serious comment from you or not.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.


Its an excellent return on investment if the Imagifier is a Valorous Heart anchor thats keeping her entire army ignoring AP2.

Character removal isnt about raw points return. It's about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.


It's not about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.

It's about sending a message.

Jokes aside you're right, if you invest a hundred or 2 points into killing a key buff then it can devalue enemy units or increase the efficiency of your own. Killing a spell caster is usually worth it's weight in gold and can swing games.
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

If an Eliminator squad kills a single Imagifier costing half what they do, that's not a good return on investment.


Its an excellent return on investment if the Imagifier is a Valorous Heart anchor thats keeping her entire army ignoring AP2.

Character removal isnt about raw points return. It's about taking force multipliers or beatstick threats off the table.


I rely on my 2W T3 4++ 55pt(or whatever he is now) warlock to cast protect on my 300 blobb of wraiths or jinxing your blob of XYZ/ Titanic unit and using seer council strat with his T3 4W 4++ farseer buddy.

You kill that 2W HQ and my army looses a very significant chunk of how it works..

Maybe people have been playing Marines so much they don't understand other armies NEED support for their hq/character for most of their codex units to function properly...

A W2 T3 model at 55 points is so overcosted to begin with I dunno if that's a serious comment from you or not.


It is when the 1 w T3 troops you taking are 15pts while making a battalion and you have to take him because only reason you take him is that you can either kill something with jinx or buff something you have sunk half your poitns into... He cant even survive a perils reliably ffs... let alone something shooting at him. So yeah..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Argive wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
It's probably more that we're used to seeing people build redundancy into their lists where taking out ONE cheap buffer isn't the biggest deal because there's 1-2 more of the same one.


And spend more pts on over costed 2W t3 body?


if that unit is so vital to making your army function your list collapses without it, is he over costed?

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

So characters cannot benefit from their own auras. Hmm. I think the only real Tyranid loser there is the Neurothrope. Of course that assumes GW didn't make the Malanthrope unable to benefit from it's spore cloud...

 Sasori wrote:
Looks like the Royal Warden is also gaining relentless March in the new codex.

Spoiler:
Which WD are these pics from?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 23:24:22


   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So characters cannot benefit from their own auras. Hmm. I think the only real Tyranid loser there is the Neurothrope. Of course that assumes GW didn't make the Malanthrope unable to benefit from it's spore cloud...

 Sasori wrote:
Looks like the Royal Warden is also gaining relentless March in the new codex.

Spoiler:
Which WD are these pics from?




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BrianDavion wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
It's probably more that we're used to seeing people build redundancy into their lists where taking out ONE cheap buffer isn't the biggest deal because there's 1-2 more of the same one.


And spend more pts on over costed 2W t3 body?


if that unit is so vital to making your army function your list collapses without it, is he over costed?


He is if on a roll double 1 or 6 he dies when trying to fulfill his function...which he has a 58/% of fulfilling...

Lets not talk about the warlock anymore... Going way off topic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 23:45:26


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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From reddit, snippit from the first codex preview Makes me feel a lot less optimistic than I did earlier about things like MWBD not being affected by this.


Psychic Powers:

Veil of Time: Unaffected

Might of Heroes: Core or Character

Null Zone: Not applicable

Psychic Scourge: Not applicable

Fury of the Ancients: Not Applicable

Psychic Fortress: Cut off but seems unaffected

Note- The Obscuration Discipline seems to be unchanged on this front, but I can only see 2 powers.

Litanies

Litany of Hate: Core or Character

Litany of Faith: Core or Character

Catechism of Fire: Core or Character

Exhortation of Rage: Core or Character (Note, this is gonna be +1 to wound in melee on 1 unit)

Mantra of Strength: Not Applicable

Recitation of Focus: Core or Character

Canticle of Hate: Core or Character

Warlord Traits

Storm of Fire: Core only

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 01:11:57


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macluvin wrote:
Honestly I think overall this is good for the game. Also makes me glad that I was stupid enough to try running chaos space marine squads in 7th edition because with all the cultist slamming going on with each rules update ain’t no way in the warp that cultists are getting the core keyword. RIP black legion/IW cultist swarm armies.


lol no one ever took cultists for re roll auras, cultists are there to claim objectives and be cannon fodder/distraction for your opponent. Cultists will still be used im sure.
   
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UK

I wonder if the new CORE keyword will replace 'ob sec' style rules instead of the troops role.

 
   
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 Latro_ wrote:
I wonder if the new CORE keyword will replace 'ob sec' style rules instead of the troops role.

That'd be really broad, since we know Terminators and Bikes are getting Core.

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 Latro_ wrote:
I wonder if the new CORE keyword will replace 'ob sec' style rules instead of the troops role.


Troops too good needing nerf in your mind?

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