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For those of you unfamiliar with who or what Primarch 0 was/is, here is a short link.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angel

I have a couple of thoughts on him. I think his location may be the secret hidden on Titan. Being the nuclear weapon to be released when all seems lost, dumping him in the Eye and letting him do what he does. Another theory I have is he would make an even greater enemy than Abbadon to the Imperium. From what I've read he's like all the Primarchs combined. I for one would love to see him in the galaxy, even if not on the side of the Imperium.

What are your guys' thoughts?

People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

 Gert wrote:
People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

It's unapologetic fan-lore that arose from the Inq54 campaign in the studio, they made it up pretty much on the go and it shows. Inq54 introduced a lot of great concepts to the 40k setting, and this is definitely not one of them.

Isn't this a plotline from Dragonball Z?

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

It's unapologetic fan-lore that arose from the Inq54 campaign in the studio, they made it up pretty much on the go and it shows. Inq54 introduced a lot of great concepts to the 40k setting, and this is definitely not one of them.

To be fair to GW, the 1d4chan version is indeed pure fan-spank at work. The Angel as it is described in the Death of an Angel says pretty much none of this "Primarch 0" crud and keeps everything vague beyond the obvious "old stuff made by the Emperor, very frightful, oh no" level. It's still not very good, mind you, but less on the nose stupid.

As for the original post, no. This concept is neither that interesting nor well-developed enough to not appear as just another ass-pull. As for being relevant on the galactic scale, again, no. The Angel is a very angry boy that smacks things good and that's it. Abaddon isn't dangerous because he back-hands very hard with a sick glove, he's dangerous because of his social standing and a network of armies that can conquer star systems. Even an almost invincible murderer that takes its time slowly and menacingly stalking individual people, even if we give it magical powers to teleport around in search of new victims constantly, doesn't matter in the grand scale of 40k's domains. Individuals do not matter unless taken care of in a methodically planned "kill everyone in the government" style rampage and that's not what'd happen before Inquisitorial kill-teams would capture the mindless monster again.

 Sherrypie wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

It's unapologetic fan-lore that arose from the Inq54 campaign in the studio, they made it up pretty much on the go and it shows. Inq54 introduced a lot of great concepts to the 40k setting, and this is definitely not one of them.

To be fair to GW, the 1d4chan version is indeed pure fan-spank at work. The Angel as it is described in the Death of an Angel says pretty much none of this "Primarch 0" crud and keeps everything vague beyond the obvious "old stuff made by the Emperor, very frightful, oh no" level. It's still not very good, mind you, but less on the nose stupid.

As for the original post, no. This concept is neither that interesting nor well-developed enough to not appear as just another ass-pull. As for being relevant on the galactic scale, again, no. The Angel is a very angry boy that smacks things good and that's it. Abaddon isn't dangerous because he back-hands very hard with a sick glove, he's dangerous because of his social standing and a network of armies that can conquer star systems. Even an almost invincible murderer that takes its time slowly and menacingly stalking individual people, even if we give it magical powers to teleport around in search of new victims constantly, doesn't matter in the grand scale of 40k's domains. Individuals do not matter unless taken care of in a methodically planned "kill everyone in the government" style rampage and that's not what'd happen before Inquisitorial kill-teams would capture the mindless monster again.

I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

Is that from the Dornian Heresy project? I should give it a read one of these years.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Is that from the Dornian Heresy project? I should give it a read one of these years.

No, from Imperium Ascendant (Heresy-less 40k) - its point of divergence is that the Legion of the Damned travels back in time and prevents the scattering of the Primarchs. It's wildly divergent from 30k/40k, basically all Primarchs remain loyal etc. - if i remember correctly, that is.

I'm now clicking randomly on 1D4chan pages, thanks a bunch!

But thanks also, I didn't know about this; more crazy 40k stuff, and a good idea for a narrative campaign.

Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

Various characters pop up every so often and miniatures sometimes take inspiration from Inquisitor models, the latest being the Deathworld Veteran from the Kill Team Acolytes kit.

 Gert wrote:
Various characters pop up every so often and miniatures sometimes take inspiration from Inquisitor models, the latest being the Deathworld Veteran from the Kill Team Acolytes kit.

Captain Artemis was originally from Inq54, the Arco-Flagellant box lets you build one of the Inq54 arcos, and the Deathwatch codex has some Inq54 easter eggs, from the top of my head

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Various characters pop up every so often and miniatures sometimes take inspiration from Inquisitor models, the latest being the Deathworld Veteran from the Kill Team Acolytes kit.

Captain Artemis was originally from Inq54, the Arco-Flagellant box lets you build one of the Inq54 arcos, and the Deathwatch codex has some Inq54 easter eggs, from the top of my head

Eisenhorn also has a 40k model, and the first Eisenhorn book was written as an unofficial tie-in to Inq54 after Abnett read an early pre-release draft.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

It's not just a 1d4chan thing, or at least it was copied over to Lexicanum.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel

 NorthernXY wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

It's not just a 1d4chan thing, or at least it was copied over to Lexicanum.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel

Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

Aash wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

It's not just a 1d4chan thing, or at least it was copied over to Lexicanum.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel

Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

Not a great idea but I was thinking that once all the Primarch return (that aren't dead) he'd be a great anti-villain. Also, I just want a 12' tall flying "evil" angel.

Aash wrote:
Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

The Sensei were introduced in Realms of Chaos and given some expansion all the way into 3rd Ed. Regardless they were actually an interesting concept being the Emperor's children, immortal but psychic blanks either hunted by the Inquisition or believed to be a way to resurrect the Emperor from the Golden Throne linking to the Star Child idea, one that has persisted all the way into the Dawn of Fire novels.

 Gert wrote:

Aash wrote:
Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

The Sensei were introduced in Realms of Chaos and given some expansion all the way into 3rd Ed. Regardless they were actually an interesting concept being the Emperor's children, immortal but psychic blanks either hunted by the Inquisition or believed to be a way to resurrect the Emperor from the Golden Throne linking to the Star Child idea, one that has persisted all the way into the Dawn of Fire novels.

The Sensei were nice in that they were pretty easy to integrate into your game and plot in any fashion you wanted, from basically having the Highlander in your games to them being just a legend people told themselves without any factual basis. They were also relatively subdued (by the standards of 40k, that is) and not all-over-the-top-all-the-time.

Aash wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

It's not just a 1d4chan thing, or at least it was copied over to Lexicanum.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel

Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

Point being, said Inquisitor supplement never says much of the things memed up in the 1d4chan version, which is why that article as it's written is fanfiction. Death of the Angel is pretty sparse on what the Angel is and what it might have done. You can find the original text easily from the Conclave, for example.

 Sherrypie wrote:

Aash wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah, the 1d4chan article is just fanfiction, and I am pretty sure GW has almost forgotten that Inquisitor 54 was ever a thing (I know I did).

It's not just a 1d4chan thing, or at least it was copied over to Lexicanum.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel

Worth noting that the entire article on lexicanum has a single source - a supplement for the Inquisitior game. I think this makes it in the same category as sensei and the like on the canon. Not referenced in modern 40K but not overtly retconned or contradicted so there’s a slim possibility of the concept being developed further, but for all intents and purposes isn’t part of the lore at present.

Point being, said Inquisitor supplement never says much of the things memed up in the 1d4chan version, which is why that article as it's written is fanfiction. Death of the Angel is pretty sparse on what the Angel is and what it might have done. You can find the original text easily from the Conclave, for example.

IIRC Death of an Angel is a Campaign supplement that you can play with your own players, like an Adventure module for a RPG, while all that stuff about Inquisitors Liechtenstein and Kessel is how the actual campaign played in the Studio went down - parts of it were shown in WD as battle reports and short stories, the characters and their warbands got portraits, and it was spun further in the short-lived Inquisitor magazine, Fanatic! and the Specialist Games magazine.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

It's unapologetic fan-lore that arose from the Inq54 campaign in the studio, they made it up pretty much on the go and it shows. Inq54 introduced a lot of great concepts to the 40k setting, and this is definitely not one of them.

To be fair to GW, the 1d4chan version is indeed pure fan-spank at work. The Angel as it is described in the Death of an Angel says pretty much none of this "Primarch 0" crud and keeps everything vague beyond the obvious "old stuff made by the Emperor, very frightful, oh no" level. It's still not very good, mind you, but less on the nose stupid.

As for the original post, no. This concept is neither that interesting nor well-developed enough to not appear as just another ass-pull. As for being relevant on the galactic scale, again, no. The Angel is a very angry boy that smacks things good and that's it. Abaddon isn't dangerous because he back-hands very hard with a sick glove, he's dangerous because of his social standing and a network of armies that can conquer star systems. Even an almost invincible murderer that takes its time slowly and menacingly stalking individual people, even if we give it magical powers to teleport around in search of new victims constantly, doesn't matter in the grand scale of 40k's domains. Individuals do not matter unless taken care of in a methodically planned "kill everyone in the government" style rampage and that's not what'd happen before Inquisitorial kill-teams would capture the mindless monster again.

I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

It’s not THAT bad of a concept, ain’t it ?

Sure the Angel was mostly shown as a psychopathic beatstick, much shallower as a character than any other Primarch or main power players in the galaxy. But the whole idea of a proto-primarch (no gene-seed or nothing, just a son of the Emperor acting as his general and inheriting his unique traits) is not that far-fetched nor uninteresting to explore. Before creating the 20 legions, the Emperor did try his hand on the Thunder Warriors, which were stronger but wilder than Space Marine and also prone to genetic degeneracy. Ultimately, they were useful for brutally conquering Terra under His direct management and providing experimental insights for developing their successors the Space Marines, trading raw power for stability, versatility and reliability.

The Angel might have been a first try at creating an ultimate general/attack dog by going the quick route of cloning Himself. Or, if recent novel development is to be believed regarding the true nature of the Emperor (an average man overusing psychic glamour), designing an idealized human version of what He’d like to appear as. Then stuffing the Angel with a good portion of His own power (be it innate or stolen from Molech). It backfired horribly because the Angel proved even more mentally unstable than the Thunder Warriors. Instead of killing him, the Emperor captured him for unknown purposes (maybe recycle his parts, siphoning back his psychic energy, trying some behavorial therapy… the Angel might not have come cheap to create: trying to save, fix or salvage him would have been better than plain elimination).

True, his trapping, disappearing, and capture by the Inquisition were VERY contrived and poorly written to say the least. But the idea of a murderous legionless proto-Primarch sleeping in the terran vaults of the Inquisition HQ could lead to fertile storytelling.

The Angel would obviously not be the uber-weapon linked to the Terminus Decree on Titan (that would either be Vulkan’s Talisman of Seven Hammers, Basilio Fo’s anti-astartes virus, or just a big bomb under the Golden Throne). Even a Daemon Primarch would not be able to solo-wipe a single war-torn system with brute force alone before being blasted to kingdom come by orbital bombardment. He would at best be useful as a very localized Exterminatus, and then you would have to deal with the headache of getting him back into its cage.

Could there be conflicts (from debate to open war) between Inquisitors whenever one felt he should be unleashed to save the Imperium from an even worst threat, no matter the collateral damage?

Did someone ever try and release him, leading to disastrous containment efforts while he moronically ravaged the Antartica underground complex, some fallen imperial hive-city, or even a full-blown daemon world?

Are the High Lords in the know? Would the Custodes plot his termination due to their wariness of both Primarchs and Thunder Warriors, or would they see it as a useful weapon since they do not care much about regular human casualties anyway? Would the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororita see him as a wrathful Messiah to be released and worshipped?

If Guilliman, the Lion or any Primarch learned of his existence, what thoughts would that trigger? How would they feel looking at the monster their father foolhardily designed as an « ideal » warrior before them? Would their opinion on their father falter even more in front of this botched, catastrophic experiment ? Would they instead think themselves are just as monstrous as the Angel, since they caused way more deaths and mayhem during the Heresy? Would one of them try to reason with it, to use it, or to destroy it (dueling and killing an adolescent clone of their father would be very cathartic in a unbelievably toxic way)?

And if destroyed, would his essence go back into the Warp, coalescing into an even worse creature of light and destruction?

The narrative potential of the Angel lies not in the character himself, but in the reaction everyone in and out of the Imperium would have around him or when discussing him, be there what do to with it, or what they would think of him.

(Plus he would made one sick model with stupid team-killing fun rules).

 Ordo Obsoletus Inquisitor wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
People give GW gak for poor writing with the Primaris and stuff but that is hands down the worst thing I think I've ever read and I've read Ian Watson's Inquisitor.

It's unapologetic fan-lore that arose from the Inq54 campaign in the studio, they made it up pretty much on the go and it shows. Inq54 introduced a lot of great concepts to the 40k setting, and this is definitely not one of them.

To be fair to GW, the 1d4chan version is indeed pure fan-spank at work. The Angel as it is described in the Death of an Angel says pretty much none of this "Primarch 0" crud and keeps everything vague beyond the obvious "old stuff made by the Emperor, very frightful, oh no" level. It's still not very good, mind you, but less on the nose stupid.

As for the original post, no. This concept is neither that interesting nor well-developed enough to not appear as just another ass-pull. As for being relevant on the galactic scale, again, no. The Angel is a very angry boy that smacks things good and that's it. Abaddon isn't dangerous because he back-hands very hard with a sick glove, he's dangerous because of his social standing and a network of armies that can conquer star systems. Even an almost invincible murderer that takes its time slowly and menacingly stalking individual people, even if we give it magical powers to teleport around in search of new victims constantly, doesn't matter in the grand scale of 40k's domains. Individuals do not matter unless taken care of in a methodically planned "kill everyone in the government" style rampage and that's not what'd happen before Inquisitorial kill-teams would capture the mindless monster again.

I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

It’s not THAT bad of a concept, ain’t it ?

Sure the Angel was mostly shown as a psychopathic beatstick, much shallower as a character than any other Primarch or main power players in the galaxy. But the whole idea of a proto-primarch (no gene-seed or nothing, just a son of the Emperor acting as his general and inheriting his unique traits) is not that far-fetched nor uninteresting to explore. Before creating the 20 legions, the Emperor did try his hand on the Thunder Warriors, which were stronger but wilder than Space Marine and also prone to genetic degeneracy. Ultimately, they were useful for brutally conquering Terra under His direct management and providing experimental insights for developing their successors the Space Marines, trading raw power for stability, versatility and reliability.

The Angel might have been a first try at creating an ultimate general/attack dog by going the quick route of cloning Himself. Or, if recent novel development is to be believed regarding the true nature of the Emperor (an average man overusing psychic glamour), designing an idealized human version of what He’d like to appear as. Then stuffing the Angel with a good portion of His own power (be it innate or stolen from Molech). It backfired horribly because the Angel proved even more mentally unstable than the Thunder Warriors. Instead of killing him, the Emperor captured him for unknown purposes (maybe recycle his parts, siphoning back his psychic energy, trying some behavorial therapy… the Angel might not have come cheap to create: trying to save, fix or salvage him would have been better than plain elimination).

Was writing something like this in another post but guess I'll post it here instead. The Angel is Big E's proof of concept that the Primarch project could work. I can't find anything supporting my theory, but I'm guessing P0 would have something like geneseed as to replace the Thunder Warriors with P0 Astartes. Big E captured P0 in a sarcophagus and put the coffin belt to be incinerated, but Malcador saved P0.

True, his trapping, disappearing, and capture by the Inquisition were VERY contrived and poorly written to say the least. But the idea of a murderous legionless proto-Primarch sleeping in the terran vaults of the Inquisition HQ could lead to fertile storytelling.

The Angel would obviously not be the uber-weapon linked to the Terminus Decree on Titan (that would either be Vulkan’s Talisman of Seven Hammers, Basilio Fo’s anti-astartes virus, or just a big bomb under the Golden Throne). Even a Daemon Primarch would not be able to solo-wipe a single war-torn system with brute force alone before being blasted to kingdom come by orbital bombardment. He would at best be useful as a very localized Exterminatus, and then you would have to deal with the headache of getting him back into its cage.

Could there be conflicts (from debate to open war) between Inquisitors whenever one felt he should be unleashed to save the Imperium from an even worst threat, no matter the collateral damage?

Did someone ever try and release him, leading to disastrous containment efforts while he moronically ravaged the Antartica underground complex, some fallen imperial hive-city, or even a full-blown daemon world?

Before we were told what the Terminus Decree was, I thought P0 was a perfect candidate as he is UBER powerful. Dude judge an entire planet unworthy of Big E's love and killed everybody on the planet in 1 day P0 and the GK both don't have great people skills, use the word "exterminatus" too often in their vernacular. The Inquisition released him once, used the same stupid method to trap him again.

Are the High Lords in the know? Would the Custodes plot his termination due to their wariness of both Primarchs and Thunder Warriors, or would they see it as a useful weapon since they do not care much about regular human casualties anyway? Would the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororita see him as a wrathful Messiah to be released and worshipped?

If Guilliman, the Lion or any Primarch learned of his existence, what thoughts would that trigger? How would they feel looking at the monster their father foolhardily designed as an « ideal » warrior before them? Would their opinion on their father falter even more in front of this botched, catastrophic experiment ? Would they instead think themselves are just as monstrous as the Angel, since they caused way more deaths and mayhem during the Heresy? Would one of them try to reason with it, to use it, or to destroy it (dueling and killing an adolescent clone of their father would be very cathartic in a unbelievably toxic way)?

And if destroyed, would his essence go back into the Warp, coalescing into an even worse creature of light and destruction?

The narrative potential of the Angel lies not in the character himself, but in the reaction everyone in and out of the Imperium would have around him or when discussing him, be there what do to with it, or what they would think of him.

(Plus he would made one sick model with stupid team-killing fun rules).

I 100% agree The Angel would make for an interesting plot development, not necessarily him the character.

If there's a benevolent God with any power in this universe then no.

 NorthernXY wrote:


Was writing something like this in another post but guess I'll post it here instead. The Angel is Big E's proof of concept that the Primarch project could work. I can't find anything supporting my theory, but I'm guessing P0 would have something like geneseed as to replace the Thunder Warriors with P0 Astartes. Big E captured P0 in a sarcophagus and put the coffin belt to be incinerated, but Malcador saved P0.

Before we were told what the Terminus Decree was, I thought P0 was a perfect candidate as he is UBER powerful. Dude judge an entire planet unworthy of Big E's love and killed everybody on the planet in 1 day P0 and the GK both don't have great people skills, use the word "exterminatus" too often in their vernacular. The Inquisition released him once, used the same stupid method to trap him again.

I 100% agree The Angel would make for an interesting plot development, not necessarily him the character.

The Angel absolutely fits as a proof of concept (and like all proofs of concepts, it is flawed, clumsy and dirty). Did not thought about proto-geneseed though: Primarchs themselves don't have geneseed in them, their extra organs grow naturally and are very different from regular Astartes ones. However, if the Angel's story was ever further developped, we could imagine the Emperor also tried a proof-of-concept-geneseed derived from this proof-of-concept-Primarch. It could either have been discarded once the other 20 geneseed strains were completed, or kept in a fridge until He could find later use for them.

...A "later use" which could very well have been the Grey Knight creation. In the rush of the Heresy, both for fighting Chaos and to provide Magnus with a "replacement legion", the Emperor could have hapazardly recycled the Angel proto-geneseed to stabilise it, discarding any uberpowerful-but-unreliable-trait, leaving only one truly unique feature : a radiant warp essence viscerally anathema to daemon, the "Emperor's Gift". Part of Magnus or other Primarchs traits could haven been thrown in also for whatever reason, or only original additions.

I'm not sure about the Angel's capacity of planet-wide annihilation though. If I remember correctly, he was only mentioned razing cities to the ground, which any Daemon Primarch could probably do single-handedly. The Grey Knight are also shown to be far more humane in recent editions and in the Chaos Gate Daemonhunter game than what Matt Ward depicted in their 5th Edition Codex. They are not Salamanders, but they are far from the gratuitous ruthlessness of Malevolent Marines, Iron Warriors, or Fyodor Karamazov, and even further from the absurd omnicidal streak of the Angel.

And yes the method for trapping him was SO STUPID. But some slight retcon could do the trick here. Or maybe some exhaustion and then a shot of Basilio's Fo virus for a good night sleep a la Soldier Boy from The Boys Season 3.

Concerning plot development, the Angel could again be great as a mirror to Primarchs, leading to interesting introspection on both sides.
Loyalist Primarch : "By the Emperor, that's how our father envisioned us at first ? He was truly a terrible person."
Traitorous Primarchs : "By the Gods, that's how our corpse-father envisioned us at first? He was truly a terrible person."
Personal speculation / wishful thinking : the Angel would make for a cool antagonist / McGuffin for a Daemon Primarch focused novel. As shown with Perturabo, Mortarion and Magnus, they are prone to infighting. Dealing with a surprise big bad chaos-killer brother unleashed on them by mad Inquisitor could drive a temporary truce for them to find a way to defeat him together (after he kicks their individual asses). The Traitor Primarchs would not become best friends afterward, but it could justify interesting dialogs, arguing and reminiscing between them while their blades are forcefully sheatted.

(bonus Grey Knights : "By the God-Emperor, that's the creature He actually derived our geneseed from ? We carry the strain of an abomination, this is confusing and appalling."

Tsagualsa wrote:
I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

I only found a single mention of a "Primarch-Zero" in Ch.37 of the Imperium Ascendant, refering to Arik Taranis - who is described more as a drill sergeant for the Primarchs instead of an actual prototype. Do you remember where it is detailed what makes him a "Primarch Zero" ? I would love to dive into it, maybe there could be awesome ideas for a proper revamp of the Angel.

Also, there is an extremely thin line between Psychic Entity and Daemon. Depending on who you ask, either any creature of the Warp could be referred as a daemon (which covers a larger scope of spirits than the term "demon" without an a), or daemons are entities of the Warp explicitly affiliated to a full fledged god, be it dark of bright (--> Khaine). The Primarchs have been recently proven to harbour inner Warp magic slowly blooming, with all of them having the potential to unlock powers akin to a Daemon Primarch. Corax completed his ascension after 10 millenia hunting heretics and became a crow-shifter / shadowmancer, Lion started it by unlocking the Forestwalk, Konrad had the Shining since birth, etc. They are all latent "Imperial Daemons", like Living Saints. So the Angel in all logic should have the same potential.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If there's a benevolent God with any power in this universe then no.

If "no" for the Angel ever be released from containment again, absolutely. But there is no benevolent God in the grim darkness of the far future save for the Emperor, and He is definitely not all powerful.

If "no" for the Angel ever been brought again as a concept: would you mind developing?

Wasn't Primus or whatever, the Gene Father of the Primaris, P0 or whatever? The Extremely old and powerful guy in Cawl's basement?

It was the DOW book where Bobby goes to visit cawl and witnesses the training of the Primaris first hand.

Alpha Primus is one of the prototype Primaris Space Marines, but took too much work (and was in constant pain).

This is not a thread I expected to see necroed.

 Ordo Obsoletus Inquisitor wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:


Was writing something like this in another post but guess I'll post it here instead. The Angel is Big E's proof of concept that the Primarch project could work. I can't find anything supporting my theory, but I'm guessing P0 would have something like geneseed as to replace the Thunder Warriors with P0 Astartes. Big E captured P0 in a sarcophagus and put the coffin belt to be incinerated, but Malcador saved P0.

Before we were told what the Terminus Decree was, I thought P0 was a perfect candidate as he is UBER powerful. Dude judge an entire planet unworthy of Big E's love and killed everybody on the planet in 1 day P0 and the GK both don't have great people skills, use the word "exterminatus" too often in their vernacular. The Inquisition released him once, used the same stupid method to trap him again.

I 100% agree The Angel would make for an interesting plot development, not necessarily him the character.

The Angel absolutely fits as a proof of concept (and like all proofs of concepts, it is flawed, clumsy and dirty). Did not thought about proto-geneseed though: Primarchs themselves don't have geneseed in them, their extra organs grow naturally and are very different from regular Astartes ones. However, if the Angel's story was ever further developped, we could imagine the Emperor also tried a proof-of-concept-geneseed derived from this proof-of-concept-Primarch. It could either have been discarded once the other 20 geneseed strains were completed, or kept in a fridge until He could find later use for them.

...A "later use" which could very well have been the Grey Knight creation. In the rush of the Heresy, both for fighting Chaos and to provide Magnus with a "replacement legion", the Emperor could have hapazardly recycled the Angel proto-geneseed to stabilise it, discarding any uberpowerful-but-unreliable-trait, leaving only one truly unique feature : a radiant warp essence viscerally anathema to daemon, the "Emperor's Gift". Part of Magnus or other Primarchs traits could haven been thrown in also for whatever reason, or only original additions.

I'm not sure about the Angel's capacity of planet-wide annihilation though. If I remember correctly, he was only mentioned razing cities to the ground, which any Daemon Primarch could probably do single-handedly. The Grey Knight are also shown to be far more humane in recent editions and in the Chaos Gate Daemonhunter game than what Matt Ward depicted in their 5th Edition Codex. They are not Salamanders, but they are far from the gratuitous ruthlessness of Malevolent Marines, Iron Warriors, or Fyodor Karamazov, and even further from the absurd omnicidal streak of the Angel.

And yes the method for trapping him was SO STUPID. But some slight retcon could do the trick here. Or maybe some exhaustion and then a shot of Basilio's Fo virus for a good night sleep a la Soldier Boy from The Boys Season 3.

Concerning plot development, the Angel could again be great as a mirror to Primarchs, leading to interesting introspection on both sides.
Loyalist Primarch : "By the Emperor, that's how our father envisioned us at first ? He was truly a terrible person."
Traitorous Primarchs : "By the Gods, that's how our corpse-father envisioned us at first? He was truly a terrible person."
Personal speculation / wishful thinking : the Angel would make for a cool antagonist / McGuffin for a Daemon Primarch focused novel. As shown with Perturabo, Mortarion and Magnus, they are prone to infighting. Dealing with a surprise big bad chaos-killer brother unleashed on them by mad Inquisitor could drive a temporary truce for them to find a way to defeat him together (after he kicks their individual asses). The Traitor Primarchs would not become best friends afterward, but it could justify interesting dialogs, arguing and reminiscing between them while their blades are forcefully sheatted.

(bonus Grey Knights : "By the God-Emperor, that's the creature He actually derived our geneseed from ? We carry the strain of an abomination, this is confusing and appalling."

Tsagualsa wrote:
I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

I only found a single mention of a "Primarch-Zero" in Ch.37 of the Imperium Ascendant, refering to Arik Taranis - who is described more as a drill sergeant for the Primarchs instead of an actual prototype. Do you remember where it is detailed what makes him a "Primarch Zero" ? I would love to dive into it, maybe there could be awesome ideas for a proper revamp of the Angel.

Also, there is an extremely thin line between Psychic Entity and Daemon. Depending on who you ask, either any creature of the Warp could be referred as a daemon (which covers a larger scope of spirits than the term "demon" without an a), or daemons are entities of the Warp explicitly affiliated to a full fledged god, be it dark of bright (--> Khaine). The Primarchs have been recently proven to harbour inner Warp magic slowly blooming, with all of them having the potential to unlock powers akin to a Daemon Primarch. Corax completed his ascension after 10 millenia hunting heretics and became a crow-shifter / shadowmancer, Lion started it by unlocking the Forestwalk, Konrad had the Shining since birth, etc. They are all latent "Imperial Daemons", like Living Saints. So the Angel in all logic should have the same potential.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If there's a benevolent God with any power in this universe then no.

If "no" for the Angel ever be released from containment again, absolutely. But there is no benevolent God in the grim darkness of the far future save for the Emperor, and He is definitely not all powerful.

If "no" for the Angel ever been brought again as a concept: would you mind developing?

1: Inquisitor Conspiracies 2 - Death of an Angel
1a: pg. 7
1b: pg. 30
1c: pg. 13
1d: pg. 27
1e: pg. 31
1f: pg. 26
1g: pg. 25

One referenced him killing an entire planet in one day having judged all of humanity to not be worthy of Big E's love. He'd make a good while card if released.

Just remembered GK purifiers walk and leave a fire trail, just like The Angel.

 NorthernXY wrote:

 Ordo Obsoletus Inquisitor wrote:

 NorthernXY wrote:


Was writing something like this in another post but guess I'll post it here instead. The Angel is Big E's proof of concept that the Primarch project could work. I can't find anything supporting my theory, but I'm guessing P0 would have something like geneseed as to replace the Thunder Warriors with P0 Astartes. Big E captured P0 in a sarcophagus and put the coffin belt to be incinerated, but Malcador saved P0.

Before we were told what the Terminus Decree was, I thought P0 was a perfect candidate as he is UBER powerful. Dude judge an entire planet unworthy of Big E's love and killed everybody on the planet in 1 day P0 and the GK both don't have great people skills, use the word "exterminatus" too often in their vernacular. The Inquisition released him once, used the same stupid method to trap him again.

I 100% agree The Angel would make for an interesting plot development, not necessarily him the character.

The Angel absolutely fits as a proof of concept (and like all proofs of concepts, it is flawed, clumsy and dirty). Did not thought about proto-geneseed though: Primarchs themselves don't have geneseed in them, their extra organs grow naturally and are very different from regular Astartes ones. However, if the Angel's story was ever further developped, we could imagine the Emperor also tried a proof-of-concept-geneseed derived from this proof-of-concept-Primarch. It could either have been discarded once the other 20 geneseed strains were completed, or kept in a fridge until He could find later use for them.

...A "later use" which could very well have been the Grey Knight creation. In the rush of the Heresy, both for fighting Chaos and to provide Magnus with a "replacement legion", the Emperor could have hapazardly recycled the Angel proto-geneseed to stabilise it, discarding any uberpowerful-but-unreliable-trait, leaving only one truly unique feature : a radiant warp essence viscerally anathema to daemon, the "Emperor's Gift". Part of Magnus or other Primarchs traits could haven been thrown in also for whatever reason, or only original additions.

I'm not sure about the Angel's capacity of planet-wide annihilation though. If I remember correctly, he was only mentioned razing cities to the ground, which any Daemon Primarch could probably do single-handedly. The Grey Knight are also shown to be far more humane in recent editions and in the Chaos Gate Daemonhunter game than what Matt Ward depicted in their 5th Edition Codex. They are not Salamanders, but they are far from the gratuitous ruthlessness of Malevolent Marines, Iron Warriors, or Fyodor Karamazov, and even further from the absurd omnicidal streak of the Angel.

And yes the method for trapping him was SO STUPID. But some slight retcon could do the trick here. Or maybe some exhaustion and then a shot of Basilio's Fo virus for a good night sleep a la Soldier Boy from The Boys Season 3.

Concerning plot development, the Angel could again be great as a mirror to Primarchs, leading to interesting introspection on both sides.
Loyalist Primarch : "By the Emperor, that's how our father envisioned us at first ? He was truly a terrible person."
Traitorous Primarchs : "By the Gods, that's how our corpse-father envisioned us at first? He was truly a terrible person."
Personal speculation / wishful thinking : the Angel would make for a cool antagonist / McGuffin for a Daemon Primarch focused novel. As shown with Perturabo, Mortarion and Magnus, they are prone to infighting. Dealing with a surprise big bad chaos-killer brother unleashed on them by mad Inquisitor could drive a temporary truce for them to find a way to defeat him together (after he kicks their individual asses). The Traitor Primarchs would not become best friends afterward, but it could justify interesting dialogs, arguing and reminiscing between them while their blades are forcefully sheatted.

(bonus Grey Knights : "By the God-Emperor, that's the creature He actually derived our geneseed from ? We carry the strain of an abomination, this is confusing and appalling."

Tsagualsa wrote:
I should have been more precise - the stuff on 1d4chan is (mostly) fan-made lore that was inspired by the Inq54 stuff Specifically the ''Primarch Zero'' stuff comes from a (good) alternate universe fanfiction where the Heresy happened much differently, that goes into more details for the Unification wars etc. and also has the other half of the Primarch Zero (Ushotan of the Thunder Warriors as the physical counterpart to the Angel as the psychic part of a 'complete' Primarch). The original concept was much more bare-bones than the version presented here, with 'The Angel' basically only being described as Psychic Entity, not a Demon, and very powerful, because it was essentially just a MacGuffin to drive the plot of the campaign.

I only found a single mention of a "Primarch-Zero" in Ch.37 of the Imperium Ascendant, refering to Arik Taranis - who is described more as a drill sergeant for the Primarchs instead of an actual prototype. Do you remember where it is detailed what makes him a "Primarch Zero" ? I would love to dive into it, maybe there could be awesome ideas for a proper revamp of the Angel.

Also, there is an extremely thin line between Psychic Entity and Daemon. Depending on who you ask, either any creature of the Warp could be referred as a daemon (which covers a larger scope of spirits than the term "demon" without an a), or daemons are entities of the Warp explicitly affiliated to a full fledged god, be it dark of bright (--> Khaine). The Primarchs have been recently proven to harbour inner Warp magic slowly blooming, with all of them having the potential to unlock powers akin to a Daemon Primarch. Corax completed his ascension after 10 millenia hunting heretics and became a crow-shifter / shadowmancer, Lion started it by unlocking the Forestwalk, Konrad had the Shining since birth, etc. They are all latent "Imperial Daemons", like Living Saints. So the Angel in all logic should have the same potential.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If there's a benevolent God with any power in this universe then no.

If "no" for the Angel ever be released from containment again, absolutely. But there is no benevolent God in the grim darkness of the far future save for the Emperor, and He is definitely not all powerful.

If "no" for the Angel ever been brought again as a concept: would you mind developing?

1: Inquisitor Conspiracies 2 - Death of an Angel
1a: pg. 7
1b: pg. 30
1c: pg. 13
1d: pg. 27
1e: pg. 31
1f: pg. 26
1g: pg. 25

One referenced him killing an entire planet in one day having judged all of humanity to not be worthy of Big E's love. He'd make a good while card if released.

Just remembered GK purifiers walk and leave a fire trail, just like The Angel.

Are you just quoting wiki references or have you looked at Death of an Angel directly? Because the wikis (40k wiki especially) frequently make stuff up or flagrantly misrepresent the sources they claim to be referencing.

I went off Lexi to find the references and the ones I've checked on in Inquisitor Conspiracies 2 - Death of an Angel are there.