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Well I have been interested in doing them for some time. I would love Forge World to do Howling Griffon pads and I would have bought the CH ones by now if I wasn't waiting to see how Forge World handles this. The Iron Snakes are probably fairly popular for one of the successor chapters. They did have a complete book about them by Dan Abnett you know.

I apoligize I thought it was about the first part.
Pst. I still think he's just being a douche.

Kanluwen wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Earthbeard wrote:
I'm still utterly amazed that you and others still think no correspondence actually occured before the filing of the suit

You have no evidence to the contrary. Don't go facepalming when you don't have more than your own supposition to go on.

Actually, he does. Chapterhouse on this very forum has said that "he's been in contact with GW and cleared things" in addition to him also saying that he "received a C&D letter, which his counsel told him he could ignore it.

Ahem...

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm going off what Insaniak is saying, MGS. He had posted that he recalled a thread where CH actually said that he's received a C&D letter and ignored it.

I actually just said that I thought that I recalled CH having hinted at receiving a C&D.



Meanwhile, hats off to Polonius for his contributions to this discussion. Way above and beyond.

Kanluwen, do try not to use half heard rumour and other people's suppositions or deductions as hard fact or as something to counter me with in the future. Unnecessary personal bit removed. Seriously, don't go there.

There's a good chap.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Earthbeard wrote:
I'm still utterly amazed that you and others still think no correspondence actually occured before the filing of the suit

You have no evidence to the contrary. Don't go facepalming when you don't have more than your own supposition to go on.

Actually, he does. Chapterhouse on this very forum has said that "he's been in contact with GW and cleared things" in addition to him also saying that he "received a C&D letter, which his counsel told him he could ignore it.

Ahem...

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm going off what Insaniak is saying, MGS. He had posted that he recalled a thread where CH actually said that he's received a C&D letter and ignored it.

I actually just said that I thought that I recalled CH having hinted at receiving a C&D.
Meanwhile, hats off to Polonius for his contributions to this discussion. Way above and beyond.

Kanluwen, do try not to use half heard rumour and other people's suppositions or deductions as hard fact or as something to counter me with in the future.

There's a good chap.

Doesn't mean it's untrue though

Unfortunately there is no negotiating with GW at this point. They even went as far as to order CH to destroy all their molds, so I don't think just using generic terms instead of 40k or Space Marines will help them.

Jeez this thread gets updated fast.

Kanluwen wrote:
The fact that I said "buying bits rather than freehanding or sculpting a relatively simple icon is a form of laziness" should tell you something about how I feel on the subject.

Also notice I mentioned "freehanding". That's not "sculpting skills", and has nothing whatsoever to do with sculpting.
That's "painting skills".

Both of those are specific skills which are time consuming(which also involve a financial outlay) to practice and perfect.

So you tell me; does it seem that I think either of those options are "lazy" or "cheap"?

I'd certainly say that freehanding is the cheapest option, but then again the amount a person spends on a hobby should not be an indicator of their dedication. And buying parts from CH is no more or less lazy than buying them from GW, they are all just bits to go on the figures to save a lot of effort scratchbuilding replacement parts. The "lazy" argument doesn't hold up just because you apparently believe that the only alternative to GW is scratchbuilding. From a hobby perspective one shoulderpad is just like another, it's not more or less lazy to buy from GW or CH, the same amount of effort goes into making the figure is the same.

Sidstyler wrote:Unfortunately there is no negotiating with GW at this point. They even went as far as to order CH to destroy all their molds, so I don't think just using generic terms instead of 40k or Space Marines will help them.

Jeez this thread gets updated fast.

You would be surprised what happens in settlement negotiations. GW knows what it wants. If it can get it, than they'll leave happy. That might simply be CH not using their trademarks anymore.

This is where we don't' know much. Nobody knows what GW's ultimate goal here is. Rest assured that the initial claim often asks for far more than the expect to get.

Kanluwen wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:
Sorry for the correction, but they did exist before the book. They appeared in a couple of issues of the Warhammer Comic, where I believe Petrok (I think is his name) was a young and up and coming Librarian, the tale was being told by his mentor. I'll take my anorak off now

I would love to see that, actually. Abnett always has made it seem as though "Brothers of the Snake" was the first time they'd been mentioned in any real detail.

I just had a quick dig around the 'net, Kan - while Warhammer Monthly and Inferno! are quotes as sources regarding the Iron Snakes on a couple of wikis (such as this entry at Lexicanum), they always seem to fail to quote the specific issue or story, which is annoying.

Kanluwen wrote:"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

Then why don't you say what you actually mean in the first place, in clear and non-aggressive language? What is the logic in doing otherwise?

My personal opinion. This will all be settled out of court, CH will stop using certain words like Tyranid and Eldar and go with the usual Alien horde and Space Elves that nearly every other 3rd party company already addopts an may have to stop producing certain models and hand over their molds (I'm looking at you Doom). CH should be just fine. Demonblade didn't go away, (with their orgs) or Mike Biasi, epicast or armorcast.

I think the worst thing that could happen is a long court case for both sides, nobody wants a long MGA vs Mattel tug of war going on, it's expensive brinksmenship. (look up the Bratz vs barbie doll lawsuits, not quite like this, but shows just how bad a long back and forth trial can get)

Anyone know of a possible time frame for this to be resolved?

Kanluwen wrote:No, Ulver. I'm saying that the only thing Chapterhouse really has going for them is the fact that their stuff is dirt cheap. It's crap, by and large, that doesn't actually really fit the GW aesthetic and appeals to people who aren't willing to take the time and do the work themselves.

Really? Is it really 'dirt cheap' compared to other bitz?

Please define 'crap' as this seems to be your opinion?

Why insult 'people' who want to buy bitz rather than make it?

Mewiththeface wrote:Anyone know of a possible time frame for this to be resolved?

Before 6th Edition is out.....maybe


And I hope that GW loses all their Trademark Rights in United States

...why? I admit it is kind of annoying how GW think they have the right to trademark every other word in the English language, but still.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
And I hope that GW loses all their Trademaker Rights in United States

Oh Yeah! because that would be the best thing for the game ever! [/sarcasm]

Wolfstan wrote:Sorry for the correction, but they did exist before the book. They appeared in a couple of issues of the Warhammer Comic, where I believe Petrok (I think is his name) was a young and up and coming Librarian, the tale was being told by his mentor. I'll take my anorak off now

I was going to address that as well.

Iron Snakes were in several issues of both Warhammer Monthly and the old Inferno magazine.
Abnett created them as his own, just as he did with the Tanith, and i believe with the Titan Legion that he wrote about.

On Topic. Thank you for your work in researching this Polonius.
It helps a layman to understand how the law will look at this.

It seems that some are morally offended by Chapterhouse's business model and marketing, whether it is legal or not.

I see it as a very fuzzy issue.
The replacement car part issue is very topical.
You can get replacement headlight assemblies from more than just the company who made your car.
Or you can get just the light bulb from even more.

While Neffertech has beaten me to the whole "prediction" thing, I intended to -and still will- make my own.

My prediction is that CH's lawyer is going to have it thrown out, as it's in the wrong jurisdiction (or whatever the legal wording is).
GW will file again, with some of their more glaring issues (not just the Paulson Games part) fixed and/or redacted.

Lawyers for the two parties will come to an agreement. No mone will exchange hands and -likely- no molds will be destroyed. CH will end up renaming everything on the site in a relatively generic manner.

The only thing I'm not comfortable predicting -and am worried about- is if CH will be able to weather the financial blow that his legal fees are going to end up costing him.
I sincerely hope my predictions are true (at WORST -for CH) and that he survives the legal fees.

Eric

It's not a question of jurisdiction, but of venue. Chapterhouse has done business in chicago, and so can be sued there. They might get venue transferred, but not dismissed.

Darn it.
I swear, I had 'venue" up there, but thought it sounded more like a wrestling match than a lawsuit. LOL
Also, I thought that dismissal then refiling was the way that went, not just a transferral.
Same basic result in the end, I guess.
Thanks for the clarification, Polonius!

Eric

Polonius wrote:It's not a question of jurisdiction, but of venue. Chapterhouse has done business in chicago, and so can be sued there. They might get venue transferred, but not dismissed.

Its not enough just to have done business in a particular state for federal court in that state to be the venue. It must be a significant business operation as in some how greater course of business than the average state that CH may conducts business in. GW considered Illinois because that was supposedly where the guy who made the Tau-ish titan was operating from, which compounded with CH sales is more activity than any other state based solely on sales presence. Texas, where CH is located is probably a more appropriate venue. No doubt GW chose Illinois because they felt they had better odds there, or felt they could impose more costs on CH's council in its attempt to litigate through attrition.

For the lawyers -

I read that a ''reasonable person'' is actually a series of criteria agreed upon previously by the courts, is that criteria not used if there is a jury?

Gibbsey wrote:I just want to get a couple of points across:

1.Ford for example does not make tires (as far as im aware), they make no claim to tires and they do not own exclusive rights to make tires.

2.Firestone does make tires, if you decide to make a tire and slap writing across it saying "Firestone" then they will sue you.

I get the point you're trying to make, but I think you're misapplying analogy here with the Tire one. CH makes parts designed to fit on Specific GW Models, just like Firestone Tires are designed to fit specific rims (size wise). As far what the "market" is here, I don't think it matters. Not a lawyer though, but I haven't seen anything from the ones that have posted saying target market matters as much as general public.

MikeMcSomething wrote:For the lawyers -
I read that a ''reasonable person'' is actually a series of criteria agreed upon previously by the courts, is that criteria not used if there is a jury?

Whatever the criteria for "reasonable persons", they won't fit the typical wargamer

God, why do people keep making the tire analogy? Not only is it annoying because it's a poor comparison, but for the fact that there's a much better analogy you can make with cars that apparently no one is picking up on: aftermarket body kits and performance parts.

Most sports cars have stock options available, but for someone who bought their car used or didn't go through a dealer, there are other companies that produce aftermarket options that are either comparable to stock upgrades, or much more extravagant bumper/fender replacements for those who really want their car to stand out (or in the case of performance parts, replacements that create much more horsepower than stock upgrades). And if you have an older car then there are even companies that specialize in producing steel or fiberglass body panels and replacement interior parts for restoration projects, in addition to official GM crate motors and the like.

So choosing to focus on tires seems kind of odd to me. Bases are a more appropriate comparison to tires, and as far as I can tell GW doesn't really seem to give a crap if you use resin bases or not. Replacement shoulder pads and weapons, like what CH makes, are more akin to replacement bumpers and hoods.

As far as the licensing argument goes, since I saw someone bring it up a while ago, IIRC GW intentionally makes it impossible for anyone to license their product. Back when they shut down all those fansites I believe someone said the cost for licensing was about GBP1,000,000, but I might be wrong.

Sid: I think a lot of people aren't reading all thirty pages of posts. Tires are a terrible analogy, and I don't even think that GW is alleging that it's making replacement parts that violates their IP.

I'm guessing they included the copyright claim as grounds for asking for the production to be halted, but I think its' the trademark issues that are most troubling to GW.

derek wrote:I get the point you're trying to make, but I think you're misapplying analogy here with the Tire one. CH makes parts designed to fit on Specific GW Models, just like Firestone Tires are designed to fit specific rims (size wise). As far what the "market" is here, I don't think it matters. Not a lawyer though, but I haven't seen anything from the ones that have posted saying target market matters as much as general public.

I was ssaying why Tires are a bad analogy. There are many minitures companies that make parts that can fit on GW models, but they arnt getting sued because they arnt claiming to make bits for 40k/fantasy and they arnt using GW names for their parts.

As far as "Market" goes im saying Warhammer fantasy/ 40k is not a market, its part of the minitures market

Sidstyler wrote:God, why do people keep making the tire analogy? Not only is it annoying because it's a poor comparison, but for the fact that there's a much better analogy you can make with cars that apparently no one is picking up on: aftermarket body kits and performance parts.

Most sports cars have stock options available, but for someone who bought their car used or didn't go through a dealer, there are other companies that produce aftermarket options that are either comparable to stock upgrades, or much more extravagant bumper/fender replacements for those who really want their car to stand out (or in the case of performance parts, replacements that create much more horsepower than stock upgrades). And if you have an older car then there are even companies that specialize in producing steel or fiberglass body panels and replacement interior parts for restoration projects, in addition to official GM crate motors and the like.

So choosing to focus on tires seems kind of odd to me. Bases are a more appropriate comparison to tires, and as far as I can tell GW doesn't really seem to give a crap if you use resin bases or not. Replacement shoulder pads and weapons, like what CH makes, are more akin to replacement bumpers and hoods.

As far as the licensing argument goes, since I saw someone bring it up a while ago, IIRC GW intentionally makes it impossible for anyone to license their product. Back when they shut down all those fansites I believe someone said the cost for licensing was about GBP1,000,000, but I might be wrong.

Its GW decision if they want to licence out their product.

Also why is "aftermarket body kits and performance parts." any better of an analogy? CH can make bits that fit on GW models no problem, the problem is when they claim to make 40k/fantasy bits without just saying "compatable with" and using GW names. The parts are not the problem (spore and doom is going to far thats full models specifically for 40k ), the problem lies with the use of GW names and icons.

It doesent matter if CH has the most amazing bits ever they are still infringing on GW's IP

Gibbsey wrote:

It doesent matter if CH has the most amazing bits ever they are still infringing on GW's IP

Therein lies the rub. We can't definitively state that Chapterhouse are infringing on Games Workshop's Intellectual Property unless this case does see the inside of a court room and a verdict is rendered.

It certainly appears that IP infringement is occurring, but as many of the examples that Polonius (others too, but his seem more dovetailed to this area) has brought up show, this case isn't as cut and dried as us various non-lawyers assume it to be.

Just to be clear here and to avoid accusations, I'm not in any way affiliated with Chapterhouse, Games Workshop, Polonius, the US Legal System or any other entity mentioned in this thread. I've never so much as purchased any 3rd party bit, mostly because I don't have the cash to do so.

EDIT: Screwed up my quote attributins.

Gibbsey wrote:It doesent matter if CH has the most amazing bits ever they are still infringing on GW's IP

Not meaning to pick on you here, Gibbsey, but what is so hard for many people posting in this thread to add IMO (or even the full "in my opinion") when making statements like this?

Until a court/judge adjudicates on the issue, it can't be stated that they are or are not doing this - different people see it in different ways, but in the eyes of the law we do not yet know which is right.

Sorry about that, but it's been annoying me for the 40 pages of discussions across two threads.....

*Edit* - Rats, ninja'd by chaplaingrabthar.....

There is no need to state IMO, because IMO is all that these forums are. Even Polonius, who has done a great job in helping out, is working in the dark because he doesn't have the full facts of the case. This is a forum and for the most part it is where people go to vent steam or have a good discussion. Whether CH has over stepped the mark, which I believe it has, is the core of the debate and unfortunatly until the courts in the US make a ruling. It doesn't matter how vociferously you believe your point of view is correct, it's still just your point of view. If you can make a valid argument to change peoples minds, please do, but the mud-slinging is pointless.

My opinion is that if you twist the lions tail, you'll get bitten as demonstrated. However if you are intelligent about your business, for the most part nothing will happen, but you may make less money.

Well technically... if the court finds in favor of GW or CH that would be the courts opinion.....

Gibbsey wrote:Well technically... if the court finds in favor of GW or CH that would be the courts opinion.....

True - but their opinion/judgement is legally binding, and would be the result of having access to all the facts, neither of which applies to our opinions.