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Gibbsey!

Shush, we don't need to insert a 3rd 2 page cyclical opinion war into this thread. We are already at 30 pages of debate, 28 pages of 3 or 4 repeated posts posing the same theories, metaphors and rebutals, with a dashing of 2 pages worth of actual new content and info from generous legal experts.

It's about time for someone to type 'It's bad that CH exists they will destroy GW!' followed by a 'How is it bad that CH exists?' followed by examples of competition being healthy for business, followed by people yelling 'No they are parasites!' followed by Polonius stepping in and actually calling it how it is, followed by several 'I disagree with the law' (enough to get to a new page), followed by repeat the entire cycle.

LOL

I thinik it's worth pointing out the difference between an educated or supported opinion, and a "listtening to your gut" opinion.

Frankly, though, when I see people post things like "CH clearly infringed on GW's IP" with no real support, I just ignore it as a fairly arbitrary statement with no value.

yeah, it's a forum, and we're all sharing our opinions. But if you want your opinion to be listened to, it helps to support it.

Polonius wrote:I thinik it's worth pointing out the difference between an educated or supported opinion, and a "listtening to your gut" opinion.

Frankly, though, when I see people post things like "CH clearly infringed on GW's IP" with no real support, I just ignore it as a fairly arbitrary statement with no value.

yeah, it's a forum, and we're all sharing our opinions. But if you want your opinion to be listened to, it helps to support it.

All too true, although, I think a lot of people take for granted their own idea of common sense would also be the basis for law, so they/we think we are being reasonable and measured in our commentary.

Despite the fact the thread is full of a lot of gak ranging from well meaning but incorrect supposition to outright flaming 'the world as I see it, if you disagree you are my enemy' rhetoric, you have been extremely helpful and generous to keep coming in every page or so to try and keep things even nominally in the realm of reasonable debate. So, a big thank you to you sir -

I wouldent really call CH at the moment competition.... Competition would be another minitures game/ parts seller

CH isnt selling a compteting miniture game they are selling bits specifically for 40k/fantasy, and while that its self may be allowed (although even then it may not be) personally (happy now? ) i think their use of GW trademarks/ IP went too far.

As i said before if CH was just selling bits that could be used in 40k/fantasy instead of specifically designed to they would be fine.

Also im seeing that many of the names have been changed, is there any agreement/settlement with GW that you can talk about? (also i see the news about CH being sued has been removed, im guessing GW asked for that to be removed for confidentiality reasons). And if GW did issue a C&D how did this get to a lawsuit?

Only Nick from CHS and the GW lawyers know, noone here is Nick's lawyer.
Changing the website seems just a precautionary approach.
Even if CHS received a C&D letter (we don't know), Nick could have ignored it thinking that he has the law on his side.

CH are parasites ( not meaning any negative here ) and GW is the Host organism. Would 2 guys have started making random "space knight" parts if not for an existing market?

My OPINION is that CH is legally allowed to make the shoulder pads and door bits they make. I'm not sure why GW is angry about the Tau walker.

My OPINION is also that CH has been more confrontational and irritating in their presentation of the things they make, so GW getting annoyed and swatting them is not surprising either.

And GW should actively guard the IP so we don't end up with the "Chibi Tentacle School-girl Bukake Ultramarine" being the only one known to the public.

Put me firmly in the camp of "you are both right that the other guy is wrong" when it comes to CH vs GW I guess.

I have been watching this thread and have and still refused to get involved it.... yet I find myself typing. All the talk has led my to a single question:

If GW is going after Chapterhouse, are companies like Maxmini, Scibor and Paulson to be next? I have ordered from everyone of these companies and I still buy GW product, the reason I ask is because if so, doesn't it seem a little hypocritical on GW's part to just target a single company and let the other ones still continue their product even though they are all kind of doing the same thing to what GW sees as their IP?

An interesting note from the IT industry. If CH created an IT product that augmented and/or filled a void that a large IT company was making, That IT company would tend to offer to purchase CH for its IP and product. In some cases CH would be purchased just for the IP and that would be come part of the new IT product. Microsoft, HP, Dell and Oracle do this all the time.

CH went a bit beyond what the other companies did, hence GW going after them.

Chapter house name their products with GW copy righted names. Those other companies have been a bit more sensible and given theirs generic descriptions.

So without sounding too naive, what just stops CH from re naming their products, or has the damage already been done?

Generalstoner wrote:So without sounding too naive, what just stops CH from re naming their products, or has the damage already been done?

From what I understand, there has been some re-naming done since the suit came about.

Also, there is the problem that GW wants to treat them like Rome did Carthage.

johnstewartjohn wrote:Chapter house name their products with GW copy righted names. Those other companies have been a bit more sensible and given theirs generic descriptions.

I think you're thinking of trademarks, not copyright, here john. Mind you, this terminology is a nightmare.

The GW Copyright and Legal Information page indicates what is copyrighted and what is trademarked. I think that racial names fall under trademarks, not copyrights.

skrulnik wrote:

Also, there is the problem that GW wants to treat them like Rome did Carthage.

Nice classical reference there - points for you!

CH used trademarked terms to sell their products. It could be argued that they actually represented their products as being GW products by the use of the trademarks. That is, IMO, the strongest claim GW can make in this case.

I've ignored the competiitor argument, but I think that's hard to think of CH as anything other than a competitor. While CHS needs GW to sell their goods, both GW and CHS sell the same product: parts for making 28mm models. If I buy CHS parts instead of GW parts, that's free market competition.

CHS is not a major competitor, but they do indeed compete for the same hobby dollar.

As for damage done, that's actually the big question. GW isn't alleging or request actual damages. Actual damages are where GW shows the ledger of lost sales, and comes up witha figure for how badly they were hurt. GW is asking for equitiable relief in having CHS destroy molds and stop using trademarks. They are also asking for what are called statutory damages. These are damages specified in the law that allow a plaintiff to recieve some amount of compensatory relief even without being actually damaged.

Where I'm not sure is if statutory damages still need to be assigned by a jury, or if a judge can award them. They range between a couple hundred to a few thousand dollars per violation, so if they get the proverbial book thrown at them it could mount quickly.

Even if assigned by a judge, if CHS tries to settle with GW by saying they'll never use trademarks again, and say, a few thousand dollars, he's likley to not award GW a ton of damages for what's a nickle and dime case.

If I were CHS's lawyer, my initial settlement offer would be to sign away all usage of GW trademarks, and see what they counter with to get an idea of what they really want. And that's the biggest question: does GW want to expend the money to actually drive CHS out of business, or are they willing to settle the matter.

skrulnik wrote:
Also, there is the problem that GW wants to treat them like Rome did Carthage.

What? Spend gobs of resources to completely destroy them and then come along later and spend gobs of resources rebuild them? I could see it happening in the wacky corporate world.

Thanks Polonius, you cleared that up for me. (now back to watching the carnage!)

Polonius wrote:CH used trademarked terms to sell their products. It could be argued that they actually represented their products as being GW products by the use of the trademarks. That is, IMO, the strongest claim GW can make in this case.

I've ignored the competiitor argument, but I think that's hard to think of CH as anything other than a competitor. While CHS needs GW to sell their goods, both GW and CHS sell the same product: parts for making 28mm models. If I buy CHS parts instead of GW parts, that's free market competition.

CHS is not a major competitor, but they do indeed compete for the same hobby dollar.

I think one of the points GW is trying to make is that CH is moving into their IP which is not fair competiton, if CH had made the parts sound more generic then that would be fine, but as i've said before i think the doom is what pushed GW. There is no mistaking what that model was intended for and yes it hurts GW current sales, there is a reason why the Doom's entry is listed under the zoan model.

B. Defendants’ Infringing Conduct

27. Upon information and belief, after having initiated some modest invasions of Syracuse in 264 BC, sometime in or about May 260BC, Chapterhouse began manufacturing and sailing a large navy at its ports located around the Great Green (“the Mediterranean”).

28. Among the products sold by Chapterhouse are “Super Heavy Assault Elephant” products designed and licensed for Chapterhouse by Defendant Hannibal Barca.

29. Upon information and belief, many consumers of Plaintiff’s original ROADS and AQUEDUCTS products and services are users of and make purchases from defendants’, including many such individuals and users in the State of North Africa.

WHEREFORE, Plaintiff respectfully requests judgment against Defendants as follows:

1. Preliminarily and permanently enjoining Defendants, their agents, representatives, employees, assigns, and suppliers, and all persons acting in concert or privity with them, from
invading over any Alps with any pachyderms, “Super Heavy Assault Elephant” or otherwise;

2. Directing the salting of all pachyderm fields around the offending city to prevent further production of same.

MajorTom11 wrote:Gibbsey!

Shush, we don't need to insert a 3rd 2 page cyclical opinion war into this thread. We are already at 30 pages of debate, 28 pages of 3 or 4 repeated posts posing the same theories, metaphors and rebutals, with a dashing of 2 pages worth of actual new content and info from generous legal experts.

It's about time for someone to type 'It's bad that CH exists they will destroy GW!' followed by a 'How is it bad that CH exists?' followed by examples of competition being healthy for business, followed by people yelling 'No they are parasites!' followed by Polonius stepping in and actually calling it how it is, followed by several 'I disagree with the law' (enough to get to a new page), followed by repeat the entire cycle.

LOL

Yeah im waiting for someone to bring back the "but GW is big enough anyway" argument... just because they are big it doesent give anyone else any right to infringe on their IP or sell rip offs of their products.

Ian Sturrock wrote:2. Directing the salting of all pachyderm fields around the offending city to prevent further production of same.

So pachyderms are grown in fields now?

Ian Sturrock wrote:B. Defendants’ Infringing Conduct


1. Preliminarily and permanently enjoining Defendants, their agents, representatives, employees, assigns, and suppliers, and all persons acting in concert or privity with them, from
invading over any Alps with any pachyderms, “Super Heavy Assault Elephant” or otherwise;

2. Directing the salting of all pachyderm fields around the offending city to prevent further production of same.

Sinec when has a peice of paper ever stoped anybody from invading another country

and since when do you grow elephants in fields?

Gibbsey wrote:I think one of the points GW is trying to make is that CH is moving into their IP which is not fair competiton, if CH had made the parts sound more generic then that would be fine, but as i've said before i think the doom is what pushed GW. There is no mistaking what that model was intended for and yes it hurts GW current sales, there is a reason why the Doom's entry is listed under the zoan model.

Well, in terms of competition, the fact that GW isn't alleging economic damages shows that either CHS is a very minor competitive (such that GW can't even detect lost sales) or that GW isn't alleging that any of their lost sales are due to the infringment.

Does anybody think that CHS sells products because of how they lable them? I mean, do we think that if they refrained from using the trademarks, they'd sell appreciably less? I'm interested in hearing opinions here. I think it's a good question to ask about the ethics of the situation. In other words: outside of simply not being right, did CHS actually hurt GW in any way?

agnosto wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
Also, there is the problem that GW wants to treat them like Rome did Carthage.

What? Spend gobs of resources to completely destroy them and then come along later and spend gobs of resources rebuild them? I could see it happening in the wacky corporate world.

I was drawing a "Destroy all molds= Salt the earth" analogy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:Does anybody think that CHS sells products because of how they lable them? I mean, do we think that if they refrained from using the trademarks, they'd sell appreciably less? I'm interested in hearing opinions here. I think it's a good question to ask about the ethics of the situation. In other words: outside of simply not being right, did CHS actually hurt GW in any way?

Um, no. They would not sell less if they used a different naming convention.

Without regard to what the name is, anyone with knowledge of GW product will recognize what the parts are for.

Just as we know what a part, or body is for when Scibor or MaxMini call them something else.

I liken it to when we get codex previews.
Some people flat out state the new stat lines or rules.
Others prefer to obfuscate the numbers with stupid "2 fire warriors" cost replacement.
Either way the message can be heard, but one takes a bit more effort to hear.

Polonius wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:I think one of the points GW is trying to make is that CH is moving into their IP which is not fair competiton, if CH had made the parts sound more generic then that would be fine, but as i've said before i think the doom is what pushed GW. There is no mistaking what that model was intended for and yes it hurts GW current sales, there is a reason why the Doom's entry is listed under the zoan model.

Well, in terms of competition, the fact that GW isn't alleging economic damages shows that either CHS is a very minor competitive (such that GW can't even detect lost sales) or that GW isn't alleging that any of their lost sales are due to the infringment.

Does anybody think that CHS sells products because of how they lable them? I mean, do we think that if they refrained from using the trademarks, they'd sell appreciably less? I'm interested in hearing opinions here. I think it's a good question to ask about the ethics of the situation. In other words: outside of simply not being right, did CHS actually hurt GW in any way?

well my opinion but yeah CH has definatly sold some product because of its link to GW, and you could also say that yeah GW has lost some sales that people would just convert from GW parts otherwise.

Trademarks is definatly strong point for GW and use of their IP has some merit aswell

Gibbsey wrote:well my opinion but yeah CH has definatly sold some product because of its link to GW, and you could also say that yeah GW has lost some sales that people would just convert from GW parts otherwise.

Trademarks is definatly strong point for GW and use of their IP has some merit aswell

I disagree. That GW has not claimed monetary losses is proof to me.

Other companies have done quite well in the replacement parts field and I highly doubt either approach affects sales.

We all have eyes and this "link" to GW is common to all of the parts from these companies, regardless of what terminology is used to identify the parts.

Chapterhouse seems to prefer to be straight forward about their product, rather than dance around their purpose.

I fully expect to see/hear about Scibor, Maxmini, and others being served as soon as GW figures out where to get them.
IIRC, both are EU based, so that may be slowing the news.

skrulnik wrote:I fully expect to see/hear about Scibor, Maxmini, and others being served as soon as GW figures out where to get them.
IIRC, both are EU based, so that may be slowing the news.

Any they will be safe aslong as they dont infringe on GW trademarks or IP, which at the moment they are not doing. I love the Scibor round bases and im definatly going to pick some up.

I think we all want to hear more about this new technology of growing elephants in fields, like wheat or carrots...

Gibbsey wrote:

skrulnik wrote:I fully expect to see/hear about Scibor, Maxmini, and others being served as soon as GW figures out where to get them.
IIRC, both are EU based, so that may be slowing the news.

Any they will be safe aslong as they dont infringe on GW trademarks or IP, which at the moment they are not doing. I love the Scibor round bases and im definatly going to pick some up.

Riiight. And the SF Roman models absolutely do not draw liberal amounts of inspiration from the Horus Heresy Visions books.

If you are arguing that the CH shoulderpads and Farseer are infringing for existing, than the same holds true for Scibor, no matter what name you call the models.

making bits is one thing but when I saw this and other threads (warseer, B&C, etc) I starting cruising the CH website. I have seen some of there stuff before was never thoroughly impressed but hey whatever. As I looked at products they offered I realized that some of these products are kit bashes using GW pieces, then cast and sold as original pieces.

CH was not only obtuse enough to just throw GW's names and imagery all over the place (unlike other 3rd party bits makers) but they even have straight up taken some of the actual GW components combined them with other piece and sold them. To me, that is over the line and I think that CH is going to have a hard time explaining that.

As many people here have used the car analogy I'll give it a test-drive myself, generic parts companies may make replacement parts for cars, designed to marry to the other engine components that are there but I do not believe they just take a Toyota piece cast it, add a couple little lines or plates or whatever and re-sell it. To me that i the fundamental difference here.

Scribor makes his version sci-fi knights, they are clearly 'inspired' in part by GW but his are unique enough that you would not just think he is making are straight up copies. This is not the case with CH IMHO.

Sorry about the long post just wanted to share my thoughts about all this, because I support third party products and supplies but feel its over the line to sell cast kit-bashes as original 'custom' sculpts.


edit:
Just wanted to share this pick I made to support my example:



Cheers