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Although the very nature of the Grey Knights means they may issue an exterminatus more often, they seem to be handing it out like free candy almost.

Reading one extract from the codex showed a case where an Exterminatus was called after the Imperial forces were victorious in defeating the deamonic threat. I understand they need to kill of witnesses perhaps, but it's luancy to kill a planet to do so. To the Imperium lives are expendable, planets are not.

I don't think any caste-based regiment is good, more even if they force other cultures into their castes and into submission, they're like Tyrants with false propaganda.

Sisters of Battle aren't good either:
If theres a planet that refuses to hail the God-Emperor to keep their original faith, the Sisters go there and murder everyone because, in truth, they are praying to daemons. If Sisters of Battle are good then the Spanish Inquisition or Jack the Ripper are holy-er than Jesus himself.

I've seen some people talk about Orks not being bad. Well you're wrong. They wanna fight, no matter the cost. They go and kill entire planets just to get attention. They're a bad bunch, always blooddrunk looking for any escuse to shed blood, even their own.

Tyranids are neutral? So i guess having lurking Genestealers to cause massive infestations on poor, refugee planets is a neutral behavior.

The Eldar are even worse, they fight Chaos and Cleanse the galaxy of any race but their own, but still they pray to mighty Khaine. Just another Daemon from the Warp.

The only Good here is the Emperor Himself. He's the one protecting everybody regardless of race.

Oh, and one more thing: i don't know if Matt Ward is a Genius or a Monster. His flops are actual good in a marketing matter. People buy stuff he writes just to nerdrage after. GW are not going to fire a gold mine, really...

Tavitin wrote:I don't think any caste-based regiment is good, more even if they force other cultures into their castes and into submission, they're like Tyrants with false propaganda.

Sisters of Battle aren't good either:
If theres a planet that refuses to hail the God-Emperor to keep their original faith, the Sisters go there and murder everyone because, in truth, they are praying to daemons. If Sisters of Battle are good then the Spanish Inquisition or Jack the Ripper are holy-er than Jesus himself.

I've seen some people talk about Orks not being bad. Well you're wrong. They wanna fight, no matter the cost. They go and kill entire planets just to get attention. They're a bad bunch, always blooddrunk looking for any escuse to shed blood, even their own.

Tyranids are neutral? So i guess having lurking Genestealers to cause massive infestations on poor, refugee planets is a neutral behavior.

The Eldar are even worse, they fight Chaos and Cleanse the galaxy of any race but their own, but still they pray to mighty Khaine. Just another Daemon from the Warp.

The only Good here is the Emperor Himself. He's the one protecting everybody regardless of race.

Oh, and one more thing: i don't know if Matt Ward is a Genius or a Monster. His flops are actual good in a marketing matter. People buy stuff he writes just to nerdrage after. GW are not going to fire a gold mine, really...

Protecting evry race? The Emperor is just as Xenophobic as his Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Protecting evry race? The Emperor is just as Xenophobic as his Imperium.

I suppose you could argue that the Emperor is protecting every race by battling Chaos. While not directly trying to, and while he'd rather exterminate the xenos, he is technically protecting them.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Protecting evry race? The Emperor is just as Xenophobic as his Imperium.

I suppose you could argue that the Emperor is protecting every race by battling Chaos. While not directly trying to, and while he'd rather exterminate the xenos, he is technically protecting them.

Every race is battling chaos, so does that mean they're all super-secret-pony-best-friends-forever trying to protect each other?

Actually because of xenos YET ANOTHER GOD of Chaos was born. That's their excuse.

Actually if the Humanity didn't exist, the whole Universe, Warp and possibly the Webway would be completely dominated by Chaos and by Daemons. That is so because Xenos can't handle the Warp.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good, but the only one apparently concerned about everything is the Emperor.

Tavitin wrote:Actually because of xenos YET ANOTHER GOD of Chaos was born. That's their excuse.

Actually if the Humanity didn't exist, the whole Universe, Warp and possibly the Webway would be completely dominated by Chaos and by Daemons. That is so because Xenos can't handle the Warp.

I'm not saying the Imperium is good, but the only one apparently concerned about everything is the Emperor.

I bolded the ridiculous part.

Humanity is by FAR the most easily corrupted species. The Black crusades-corrupted humans. The Sabbat worlds affair-Lost and the Damned.

The Craftworld Eldar are so cautious now that it is nigh impossible to corrupt them. The Tau barely register in the warp, and the only corruption they've faced was when Kroot started eating daemons (dumb asses). I am not sure if I've heard even one story about corrupted orks, it just doesn't happen. Tyranids-if I need to explain, your a fool. DE are already lost, no point in mentioning them.

And then there was the HH...

I do imagine the Emperor is actually a pretty cool guy, it's just that, you know, being stuck ded to a throne kinda puts a crimp in your ability to give orders like "stop murdering people for being stupid" and such.


Thing is, though, how do you define 'evil'? And regardless of how you define it, how do you determine whether or not someone is 'evil'? Are they evil because they do evil deeds, regardless of reason or intent? Or are they evil because they do any deeds with evil intent?

Orks don't fight because they enjoy pain and agony, they fight because they enjoy fighting, because it's literally encoded in their DNA. It's how they reproduce. When an Ork swings 'iz choppa at your head, he's basically inviting you to fight, inviting you to have sex. Yes, that technically makes Orks rapists on a scale that would make Slaanesh blush, but they don't do it because other races don't like it, they do it in spite of that.

I define evil based on the reason, logic, necessity behind a deed. Exterminatus to kill an individual because you don't feel like sending and assassin, is evil. Protecting your worlds and expanding for survival (Tau), not evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you listen to the lyrics of this song carefully, I think it sums up the way the IoM functions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51iquRYKPbs

Tavitin wrote:I don't think any caste-based regiment is good, more even if they force other cultures into their castes and into submission, they're like Tyrants with false propaganda.

Sisters of Battle aren't good either:
If theres a planet that refuses to hail the God-Emperor to keep their original faith, the Sisters go there and murder everyone because, in truth, they are praying to daemons. If Sisters of Battle are good then the Spanish Inquisition or Jack the Ripper are holy-er than Jesus himself.

I've seen some people talk about Orks not being bad. Well you're wrong. They wanna fight, no matter the cost. They go and kill entire planets just to get attention. They're a bad bunch, always blooddrunk looking for any escuse to shed blood, even their own.

Tyranids are neutral? So i guess having lurking Genestealers to cause massive infestations on poor, refugee planets is a neutral behavior.

The Eldar are even worse, they fight Chaos and Cleanse the galaxy of any race but their own, but still they pray to mighty Khaine. Just another Daemon from the Warp.

The only Good here is the Emperor Himself. He's the one protecting everybody regardless of race.

Oh, and one more thing: i don't know if Matt Ward is a Genius or a Monster. His flops are actual good in a marketing matter. People buy stuff he writes just to nerdrage after. GW are not going to fire a gold mine, really...

There's so much wrong with that post that I'm just confused.

Firstly, are you saying that The Sisters of Battle are praying to Daemons? Or that any religion other than praying to the Emperor is the worship of Daemons? It doesn't matter really, both are completely wrong.

Orks are not evil. Someone/thing that's evil, is morally wrong, and CHOOSES to go against normal ethics of their race to cause unnecessary suffering, or to be intentionally wicked. An Ork's nature is to fight, as much as it is a Lions to hunt. The Lion kills the Zebra, does that make the Lion evil? No, the same applies to the Orks. They can't help who they are, it's been gentically engineered into them. You're trying to apply the morality of a human to an Orks, completely different moral codes, and rights and wrongs to humans.

Tyranids are the same as Orks. Their only emotion and drive is to feed, to continue the race, like a locust. They have evolved this method of survival, they can't now deviate or they will die out.
They can't think about what they're doing from a human point of view because they don't have the capacity to care. Do they intentionally go out of their way to be deliberately wicked or cause suffering? No they don't, every action is based on survival. They do what they need to survive, END OF DISCUSSION.

Eldar have the capacity to be evil, but as is a trend in 40k, many of their actions are based on making sure their ever dwindling race continues. From a human stand point sure, Eldar killing the population of a city for no reason we can discern is evil, but everything the current Eldar do has a higher purpose. The people they apparently killed for no reason, will likely go on to either cause some massive catastrophe that will let lose the Warp, weaken the Eldars bulwark, The IoM or come to directly effect the Eldar. All of these possibilities will come to harm the Eldar, be it a year or 1000 years. Considering they have the power, they will do what they must to ensure their own survival. And I've never heard of the Eldar 'Cleanse the galaxy of every other race but their own'. The Eldar worship a pantheon of ELDAR gods, one of which is Khaine. Whilst he is described as a Daemon, he is one, not actually alive any more, and two, not a Daemon in the sense you think he is. Khaine and all the other Eldar gods are entities that used to reside in the Warp, and were created by The Old Ones as generals. Eldar psychic abilities caused these beings to re-from as Gods in the Warp, not Daemons like a Bloodletter, or the Chaos Gods, but a manifestations of the Eldar psyche. Most were killed by Slannesh, Khaine was broken into millions of pieces and cast into the material realm. He does not exist as a cohesive whole.

Have you read the Horus Heresy series or any Imperial based book for that matter? The Emperor has no interest in the survival of xenos species. He instructed his Great Crusade not to tolerate Aliens, and if they wont serve humanity, wipe them out. Very xenos friendly eh? The only species The Emperor cares about is humanity, and he does what he does to protect them and only them. The Orks could be wiped out and The Emperor would be happy.

im2randomghgh wrote:I define evil based on the reason, logic, necessity behind a deed. Exterminatus to kill an individual because you don't feel like sending and assassin, is evil. Protecting your worlds and expanding for survival (Tau), not evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you listen to the lyrics of this song carefully, I think it sums up the way the IoM functions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51iquRYKPbs

Telling everyone to submit to the Greater Good or you will be killed, not so great. The Tau preach this ideology of equality and cooperation under a single banner which sounds great right? Yeah you can join, so long as you bow to the rule of the Ethereals. Oh? You don't want to? Well, we're going to pulse rifle you to bloody chunks and feed you to the Kroot! The Tau have no constant conflict and are fairly isolated, they expand because they think their ideology is the right one over any others. They would be perfectly fine not trying to subjugate all other races. Once they start to become a more noticeable force, they will draw the attention of the other races, all of whom are vastly more powerful and have no qualms attacking and destroying them if they think they have even a chance of being a threat, especially if they begin to enroche on territory owned by the Imperium.Not exactly evil, not exactly good.

iproxtaco wrote:
Telling everyone to submit to the Greater Good or you will be killed, not so great. The Tau preach this ideology of equality and cooperation under a single banner which sounds great right? Yeah you can join, so long as you bow to the rule of the Ethereals. Oh? You don't want to? Well, we're going to pulse rifle you to bloody chunks and feed you to the Kroot! The Tau have no constant conflict and are fairly isolated, they expand because they think their ideology is the right one over any others. Not exactly evil, not exactly good.

Explain the kroot, then? They seem to have absolutely no problem pursuing their own agenda.

They're hungry. Kroot are basically a little Tyranid microcosm, contained within the Tau empire.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Telling everyone to submit to the Greater Good or you will be killed, not so great. The Tau preach this ideology of equality and cooperation under a single banner which sounds great right? Yeah you can join, so long as you bow to the rule of the Ethereals. Oh? You don't want to? Well, we're going to pulse rifle you to bloody chunks and feed you to the Kroot! The Tau have no constant conflict and are fairly isolated, they expand because they think their ideology is the right one over any others. Not exactly evil, not exactly good.

Explain the kroot, then? They seem to have absolutely no problem pursuing their own agenda.

Explain them in what way? How they are or aren't evil?

Kroot don't have an agenda beyond pooping and mating. In that order.

Kroot are intelligent and automative enough to have an agenda. They however never go out of their way to cause unnecessary suffering for their own amusement or enjoyment. They have a more animalistic nature than say, a human. Hence their savagery that is sometimes mistaken, labelling the Kroot evil. Once again its putting human values on a distinctly alien race, like the Orks or Tyranids. Tau are near enough in human thinking that we can put our values on the.

I refuse to play against Grey Knights, or read the codex
out of sight out of mind (much like I refuse to read any 40K novels)

Yor wrote:I refuse to play against Grey Knights, or read the codex
out of sight out of mind (much like I refuse to read any 40K novels)

Any real reason? I'm not saying you have to read it, unless you start complaining about the content. By all means dont play against Grey Knights and don't read the Codex, I have no problem with someone not wanting to read it. I'd recommend it though, even if you borrow or download a pdf, the origins of the Chapter as well as most (emphasis on most) of the characters are really good.

Everyone is evil /end

Yor wrote:I refuse to read the codex
out of sight out of mind (much like I refuse to read any 40K novels)

You are a smart man. I just pretend everything written after about 1995 doesn't exist.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:I define evil based on the reason, logic, necessity behind a deed. Exterminatus to kill an individual because you don't feel like sending and assassin, is evil. Protecting your worlds and expanding for survival (Tau), not evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you listen to the lyrics of this song carefully, I think it sums up the way the IoM functions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51iquRYKPbs

Telling everyone to submit to the Greater Good or you will be killed, not so great. The Tau preach this ideology of equality and cooperation under a single banner which sounds great right? Yeah you can join, so long as you bow to the rule of the Ethereals. Oh? You don't want to? Well, we're going to pulse rifle you to bloody chunks and feed you to the Kroot! The Tau have no constant conflict and are fairly isolated, they expand because they think their ideology is the right one over any others. They would be perfectly fine not trying to subjugate all other races. Once they start to become a more noticeable force, they will draw the attention of the other races, all of whom are vastly more powerful and have no qualms attacking and destroying them if they think they have even a chance of being a threat, especially if they begin to enroche on territory owned by the Imperium.Not exactly evil, not exactly good.

They are really the only race that even gives the option for peaceful surrender. "Join the Greater Good or face our railguns" sure sounds A LOT better than the IoM's motto "die or we'll make you die with hundreds of thousands of men thrown meaninglessly against your guns" or the SM's motto "suffer not the alien to live" I swapped heretic for alien, but it's still true enough. Name 1 situation in which the Tau killed purely for the sake of killing. 1. I challenge you.

For the Tau, war is simply an unpleasantness that interrupts their manifest destiny. It is not the sole purpose of their existence *cough* Imperiumofmankind *cough*

Well is more, "Bow to the ultimate rule of the Ethereals or die."

Either way, you submit or are crushed (not that the Tau could crush any major race).

I can't name a situation, nor did I say the Tau were like that. But they are not the ultimate force of good in the 40k universe. They try and take planets owned by the Imperium through force or bribery, not because they need the resources or don't have enough space, but because THEY THINK they are right, ie. In their opinion their way is the best. The Imperium and the Eldar are the same, but both are convinced their way is the right way, it's just that neither Tau or Eldar have the power to enforce it on others. The Imperium does. They believe that humanity is right, they are the chosen race and no xenos have a place in the galaxy unless its serving man. If the Tau actually start to bother the Imperium to a greater degree, say they start swaying large chunks from the edge of Imperial space, then the IoM would come down on the Tau so hard, it would likely be the end of them.

I can't actually find a reference to the Imperium killing for the sake of killing either. Every time, they have a greater reason, same as the Tau.

The Imperium of Mankinds sole existence is not to war with other races. Human planets have banded together for survival in an unforgiving universe, relying on each other for resources, and are all connected by a single religion. Not to mention they get a kick-ass army of billions to protect them.

Considering the Imperium of Man, the single religion found in all the planets is enforced like the Spanish Inquisition. And considering the setting, with good reason.

In the 40th millenium there's proof that god exists, hence the God-Emperor. Any other deity comes from the Warp. If it comes from the Warp then its a Daemon. If its a Daemon it can corrupt and that can lead to a Major infestation.

Guess what, if the IoM suddenly appeared on our planet they'll tell us that our religion (all of them) is actually helping daemons and if we don't stop we will meet fire and death. That's not GOOD but that's better than making Daemons stronger. And guess who'll bring the fire and Death? Flying Virgins in Power Armor.

Everybody throwing rocks at the IoM, but i'm with them.

Yor wrote:I refuse to play against Grey Knights, or read the codex
out of sight out of mind (much like I refuse to read any 40K novels)

Some 40k novels are quite good, you're missing out.

iproxtaco wrote:Well is more, "Bow to the ultimate rule of the Ethereals or die."

Either way, you submit or are crushed (not that the Tau could crush any major race).

I can't name a situation, nor did I say the Tau were like that. But they are not the ultimate force of good in the 40k universe. They try and take planets owned by the Imperium through force or bribery, not because they need the resources or don't have enough space, but because THEY THINK they are right, ie. In their opinion their way is the best. The Imperium and the Eldar are the same, but both are convinced their way is the right way, it's just that neither Tau or Eldar have the power to enforce it on others. The Imperium does. They believe that humanity is right, they are the chosen race and no xenos have a place in the galaxy unless its serving man. If the Tau actually start to bother the Imperium to a greater degree, say they start swaying large chunks from the edge of Imperial space, then the IoM would come down on the Tau so hard, it would likely be the end of them.

I can't actually find a reference to the Imperium killing for the sake of killing either. Every time, they have a greater reason, same as the Tau.

The Imperium of Mankinds sole existence is not to war with other races. Human planets have banded together for survival in an unforgiving universe, relying on each other for resources, and are all connected by a single religion. Not to mention they get a kick-ass army of billions to protect them.

1. Being allowed to submit is more than any species allows.

2. You couldn't be more wrong. The resouces of conquered planets and expansion of their empire is thier sole priority. The Damocles Gulf Crusade alone threatened their whole empire. The Tau offering their ultimatum is simply their reaction to knowledge of the IoM. If they encountered a xenos race with no intention to harm them whatsoever (other than their demiurg, kroot and vespid auxilliaries) and had no reason to harm them back, they could co-exist completely. If the Tau ever encountered the Eldar (they haven't yet) there likely wouldn't be a conflict. The Eldar wouldn't see any future in which the Tau attacked them, since they wouldn't, and, when not following their crazy visions, the Eldar are quite reasonable, hence the logic behind them allying.

1. Being allowed to submit is more than any species allows.

2. You couldn't be more wrong. The resouces of conquered planets and expansion of their empire is thier sole priority. The Damocles Gulf Crusade alone threatened their whole empire. The Tau offering their ultimatum is simply their reaction to knowledge of the IoM. If they encountered a xenos race with no intention to harm them whatsoever (other than their demiurg, kroot and vespid auxilliaries) and had no reason to harm them back, they could co-exist completely. If the Tau ever encountered the Eldar (they haven't yet) there likely wouldn't be a conflict. The Eldar wouldn't see any future in which the Tau attacked them, since they wouldn't, and, when not following their crazy visions, the Eldar are quite reasonable, hence the logic behind them allying.

Sigh*, I know that, you've said it more than once. Yes they allow others to submit and no other races don't offer that, but so far the only alternative the Tau have offered to a refusal to submit is death.

No, the Tau do not need a whole lot more resources. That's not a justification to attack other races when the real reason is that you think your ideology is the only right one. First contact with the current Tau Empire and the Imperium didn't involve any of the Imperiums military forces. The Tau thought, "Hey we can't conquer this obviously vastly more powerful and larger Empire, and they wont join us, lets try anyway." They then proceeded to bribe the frontier planets who had no real official Imperial presence. If the Tau had kept themselves to themselves when they saw they were outmatched, the Damocles Gulf Crusade would never had been mobilised. If they ever encountered another race, they would just leave them be, barring of course the only three known races they've encountered who have been subjugated, because they could.
This co-existence would obviously happen providing the other race accepted the Ethereals as their rulers.

If the Eldar ever perceived the Tau to be a threat to a single Eldar life, they would utterly destroy this threat. They have no qualms killing the entire human population planet, and whilst the Eldar like the Tau better because their belief is more tolerant than the Imperiums, when an Eldar life is threatened, there will be no discrimination. The Tau will be killed all the same.

And no, the Eldar still think they are right, and they are superior to even the Tau. In a way they loathe and hate the Tau because the Tau do not fear the Warp when they die. The Eldar on the other hand fear what could happen to them every second of their waking day.

Not entirely correct. IIRC as of FFG starting to create fluff, The Eldar have encountered the Tau, and, at the moment, have better diplomatic relations then with IoM.

The colonies that the Tau over took had, after all, told the Tau that the Imperium had withdrawn long ago. Which was, more or less, accurate. The Imperium had had little to do with that area of space for the better part of a thousand years.

They don't have open diplomatic relations as such, but the Eldar definitely see the Tau as a better force than the oppressive Imperium, which in a way is true. When it comes down to it the Eldar would mercilessly kill as many Tau was necessary to preserve the Eldar, same as they do with humanity. One Eldar life going to Slannesh is worth 1,000,000 Tau. Of course, if they care more for the Tau than hmanity, the point where they say its not worth it will come sooner for a Tau.

iproxtaco wrote:

1. Being allowed to submit is more than any species allows.

2. You couldn't be more wrong. The resouces of conquered planets and expansion of their empire is thier sole priority. The Damocles Gulf Crusade alone threatened their whole empire. The Tau offering their ultimatum is simply their reaction to knowledge of the IoM. If they encountered a xenos race with no intention to harm them whatsoever (other than their demiurg, kroot and vespid auxilliaries) and had no reason to harm them back, they could co-exist completely. If the Tau ever encountered the Eldar (they haven't yet) there likely wouldn't be a conflict. The Eldar wouldn't see any future in which the Tau attacked them, since they wouldn't, and, when not following their crazy visions, the Eldar are quite reasonable, hence the logic behind them allying.

Sigh*, I know that, you've said it more than once. Yes they allow others to submit and no other races don't offer that, but so far the only alternative the Tau have offered to a refusal to submit is death.

No, the Tau do not need a whole lot more resources. That's not a justification to attack other races when the real reason is that you think your ideology is the only right one. First contact with the current Tau Empire and the Imperium didn't involve any of the Imperiums military forces. The Tau thought, "Hey we can't conquer this obviously vastly more powerful and larger Empire, and they wont join us, lets try anyway." They then proceeded to bribe the frontier planets who had no real official Imperial presence. If the Tau had kept themselves to themselves when they saw they were outmatched, the Damocles Gulf Crusade would never had been mobilised. If they ever encountered another race, they would just leave them be, barring of course the only three known races they've encountered who have been subjugated, because they could.
This co-existence would obviously happen providing the other race accepted the Ethereals as their rulers.

If the Eldar ever perceived the Tau to be a threat to a single Eldar life, they would utterly destroy this threat. They have no qualms killing the entire human population planet, and whilst the Eldar like the Tau better because their belief is more tolerant than the Imperiums, when an Eldar life is threatened, there will be no discrimination. The Tau will be killed all the same.

And no, the Eldar still think they are right, and they are superior to even the Tau. In a way they loathe and hate the Tau because the Tau do not fear the Warp when they die. The Eldar on the other hand fear what could happen to them every second of their waking day.

Why would an Eldar life be threatened?

On that note, the kroot could be used as messengers between the factions, since they have fought many times for both.

The Tau, contrary to what you seem to believe, DO need more resources. 100 planets isn't much when one has to fend off the IoM, Orks, and Tyranids (I only listed the species they have fought)

A good analogy (though rather random) would be to compare the Tau to a house spider. They come into your house (milky way) long after you first came into your house, and generally are pretty harmless and mind their own business, even killing mosquitos for you (tyranids, orks). However, you are instantly weary of them, and seek to kill them for unexplainable reasons (Damocles Gulf Crusade). However, if you attack, it may bite back. Allthough you, being a human, can survive anything it can do, getting bitten still sucks. If you leave it on your own, it might not bother you.

, though it might sneak up in the middle of the night and bite you, to see if it can eat you or not.

If you were aware of that, you'd instantly try to crush it, and it would bite more to try and defend itself, whether or not it figured out that you were too big to eat.


Just extending the metaphor a bit.