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I'm growing increasingly worried about genestealers, and I think people are sleeping on mass genestealer armies. They're quite ridiculous - at 12 points, the same as a Necron warrior, you get 3 S4 AP-1 attacks which are AP-4 on 6's. They get +1 attacks if the unit is more than 10 models (they 100% always will be). They move 8" and can charge after advancing, meaning they're a threat to anything within 8"+3D6". They have 5++ and are troops, so can be spammed en masse very easily. Broodlords give them +1 to hit and are psykers.

To be blunt, they're utterly crazy. If you think Immortals are good (they are, in fairness) then just run some calculations against these guys. If they get 20 models into combat (okay, not that likely but still) even unbuffed they will wipe a full Necron Warrior unit in one round. Against a T8 3+, a unit of 20 does 8.89 wounds per round. For 720 points, Tyranid players can field 60 of these guys and not even feel slightly bad about it. How on Earth do we deal with them? Maybe that's why Frankie said in his faction focus he runs 60+ warriors; you simply need that many to stand a chance against hordes.


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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.

Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.


EDIT: Don't know if this was covered in peoples mathammer but 10 Tesla Immortals buffed by "my will be done" will put an average of 20 wounds on T4 models (more with stalker buff) ouch.

They are 181 points though. For 150, you can get 2 Heavy Destroyers which, whilst weaker, are better shots. I agree that the best gun is either Heat Ray or THGC though, I've just not made up my mind as to which is better.

Not sure how you're getting that for 10 tesla Immortals. 20 shots, average of 7/6 hits each (4/6 to score 1 hit + 1/6 to score 3 = 7/6), wounding on 3+ is ~15.56 wounds by my calculation.

So then what's the Stalker for, now?

Previously a cool combo was sticking him with Destroyers to give them borderline auto hits.
Now it appears it just hands out a nerfed version of the old Preferred Enemy, rerolling ones to hit at things he himself already shot at that turn.

So, what then, is it good for in 8th?
I guess if something that has been blessed with MWBD to give +1 to hit that'll be good... so long as it was already hitting on 3+.

Accompanying our heavy gun vehicles? It's not much, but it might help.

Basically, how vital are they now to the Necron army list?

Nids sound terrifying for a variety of reasons. Scarab meat sheilds might help.

@Skoffs, I had this at the bottom of the last page:

Twin heavy Gauss seems to be the best fit for the stalker now. It's only 10pts more than the meltas and I think it's worth it for the extra range. QSheilding is best at long range where massed dakka is less likely to reach it, and you will have more targets in range to apply its buff against.

Seems like a good choice to combine with the Doomsday Ark for two QS tanks that can sit at range and work on high T targets.


EDIT: We have an unfortunate shortage of lascannon equivalent guns so it's worth considering for that alone.

Yes, Moosatronic Warrior, I saw.
I'm asking if that's all they'll be good for now, a slight chance at rerolling for our vehicles.

Is there a better application I'm just not seeing here?
Any infantry combos to exploit?

I just made a Decurion, fits perfectly in 2000 points. Has a canoptek harvest and a full D-cult. Actually not a bad list. Not optimised, but looks fun.

Its in the army list page if you want to have a squiz

 skoffs wrote:
Yes, Moosatronic Warrior, I saw.
I'm asking if that's all they'll be good for now, a slight chance at rerolling for our vehicles.

Is there a better application I'm just not seeing here?
Any infantry combos to exploit?

It doesn't seem a big enough buff for an anti-infantry unit to be worth sacrificing two of our hard to come by AT shots on.

 skoffs wrote:
Alright, guys, what's the Stalker for, now?

Previously a cool combo was sticking him with Destroyers to give them borderline auto hits.
Now it appears it just hands out a nerfed version of the old Preferred Enemy, rerolling ones to hit at things he himself already shot at that turn.

So, what then, is it good for in 8th?
I guess if something that has been blessed with MWBD to give +1 to hit that'll be good... so long as it was already hitting on 3+.

Accompanying our heavy gun vehicles? It's not much, but it might help.

Basically, how vital are they now to the Necron army list?

Well, the reroll on 1's is quite good against vehicles now that they're so much more durable. A T7 W10 3+ vehicle VS Gauss Immortals needs 10/((2/3)(1/3)(2/3))=67.5 shots to kill. Rerolling 1's means it's 7/9 to hit instead of 2/3, which reduces this to ~57.9 shots to kill. If you assume that the Stalker did average damage with THGC of 3.11 wounds then it's ~39 shots. It's a big difference overall, and it's only 31 points more than 2 Heavy Destroyers while being almost twice as durable, and is decent in combat at a pinch. Against MEQ, a unit of 20 warriors expects to inflict 3.33 wounds. If they're rerolling from a Stalker hit, that only goes up to 3.89.

I think they have a place. I'm not sure they're essentials, but definitely a force multiplier.

 skoffs wrote:
Yes, Moosatronic Warrior, I saw.
I'm asking if that's all they'll be good for now, a slight chance at rerolling for our vehicles.

Is there a better application I'm just not seeing here?
Any infantry combos to exploit?

It gives re-rolls of 1 to hit to anything its already attacked that turn. For the entire army.

You want that wraithknight dead in two turns? Point your stalker at it.

It synergises really well with the DA, they now will be hitting on 3's RR 1's. Its a different heavy weapons alternative to having mass heavy destroyers as it doesn't give much of a bonus to builds that spam HD's.

I'm growing increasingly worried about genestealers, and I think people are sleeping on mass genestealer armies. They're quite ridiculous - at 12 points, the same as a Necron warrior, you get 3 S4 AP-1 attacks which are AP-4 on 6's. They get +1 attacks if the unit is more than 10 models (they 100% always will be). They move 8" and can charge after advancing, meaning they're a threat to anything within 8"+3D6". They have 5++ and are troops, so can be spammed en masse very easily. Broodlords give them +1 to hit and are psykers.

To be blunt, they're utterly crazy. If you think Immortals are good (they are, in fairness) then just run some calculations against these guys. If they get 20 models into combat (okay, not that likely but still) even unbuffed they will wipe a full Necron Warrior unit in one round. Against a T8 3+, a unit of 20 does 8.89 wounds per round. For 720 points, Tyranid players can field 60 of these guys and not even feel slightly bad about it. How on Earth do we deal with them? Maybe that's why Frankie said in his faction focus he runs 60+ warriors; you simply need that many to stand a chance against hordes.

As always, shoot the chargers and charge the shooters.
If our guns are not good enough, we will be lost.
Tactics can help to set up a refused flank (in Maelstrom not helpful) or whatnot.

Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.

 wuestenfux wrote:
As always, shoot the chargers and charge the shooters.
If our guns are not good enough, we will be lost.
Tactics can help to set up a refused flank (in Maelstrom not helpful) or whatnot.

I've always found the best tactic in maelstrom is to focus more on the battle than the objectives. If your opponent does the same it's a fair fight. If they obsess over objectives, they're playing catch up unless they have really good luck as you can dismantle their army unchecked and secure board control.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.

I'd add more variety to the army. Such an army would be rather slow. Moreover, our troops are not good enough in cc.
What an army needs is to combat the enemy at all threat ranges.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Are our troops good enough to anchor the army? Will be we using the Battalion formation?
If so, I'm thinking that 20 Tesla Immortals and 60 Warriors is a good core though it is 1,060 points.

I'd add more variety to the army. Such an army would be rather slow. Moreover, our troops are not good enough in cc.
What an army needs is to combat the enemy at all threat ranges.

Against shooty armies yes, you want other threats, but against horde spam, our best defence is massed gauss flayers/tesla.

Tyranid genestealers have invuln's. AP- isnt worth much against them, same as 7th. You need weight of fire to bring them down.

I feel 2x 20 man squads, with a cryptek and a GA full of warriors backing each one, is a very solid front line. Thats 160 rapid fire shots a turn. All split firing. Just whittle down each squad until good numbers have been lost to ensure more damage on break tests, and move onto the next blob.

I've fought GuardBlob, NidBlob and SeekerSpam in 7th. Best way to deal with them was either lots of blasts (PB on TB realistically, as all our vehicles were terrible) or massed gauss. Now we don't have templates, but we can spam gauss.

I'm starting to feel that Outrider might fit us better. Destroyers and Wraiths can make up the core of the army. While Warriors and Immortals are good, I'm not sure they're enough to fill out the meat and potatoes. Will have to continue on lists.

Then again, redundant Warrior/Immortal squads with multiple Crypteks and Overlords buffing them seems like it can Attrition down any army in the game.

There are so many ways to go! We have one of the most versatile indexes Gonna be fun exploring them all.

I think I'm going to have a try at going all out with a deceiver bomb using 2 monoliths. something like...

CCB

15 Flayed ones

Deceiver

Monolith + 10 x Lichguard

Monolith + 6 x Wriath

Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith. Flayed ones also drop in first turn and try a 9" charge. CCB plays catch up if Deceiver doesnt get to move 3 units.

First turn is highly likely with so few units.

Assuming 2k points game.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Flayed ones also drop in first turn and try a 9" charge.

I'm gonna have to take a look at their data sheet again, but can Flayed Ones do a turn one rush?

And if you're really going with a D-Bomb list, perhaps Tomb Blades would be worth considering. At 14" M + 24" guns, they'll have the best chance of assisting that first turn blitz.
Or, hell, fully commit and throw some Flyers in, too (can you really deploy them on the table during setup?)

Yeah flyers deploy as far as I can tell.

FO can deep strike first turn and try to charge.

The basic idea of that list could likely be refined, although it only just fits in 2k as a legal detatchment so not a lot of wiggle room.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I think I'm going to have a try at going all out with a deceiver bomb using 2 monoliths. something like...

CCB

15 Flayed ones

Deceiver

Monolith + 10 x Lichguard

Monolith + 6 x Wriath

Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith. Flayed ones also drop in first turn and try a 9" charge. CCB plays catch up if Deceiver doesnt get to move 3 units.

First turn is highly likely with so few units.

Assuming 2k points game.

A very small army. Very risky.
A first turn charge may or may not be worth it. Against a shooty army it could be worth it . But against a cc army, I would be cautious.

Here's a thought for a fun 1k list, Vanguard Detachment:

Cryptek - 104

Deceiver - 225
Nightbringer - 230
Deathmarks x5 - 100
Deathmarks x5 - 100

Warriors x20 - 240

999/1000


Deciever teleports the big blob of Warriors plus himself to the middle of the board. Remember, you can use a Command Point reroll on that pre-game d3, so decide to bring the Nightbringer or Cryptek based on what you roll. Deathmarks stay in Hyperspace.

The only thing available to shoot should be Warriors, which you potentially are buffing, and any important units they keep available can be blasted by the Deathmarks.

A bit one note but could be quite fun.


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I'm not getting too attached to any one list right now. The most interesting thing I'm seeing at the moment is that we have a lot of units that are... maybe not "niche", but definitely excel against certain armies and in certain metas.

Spyders, for instance, seem relatively fine all around - but if the meta shifts to be really heavy on Psykers, 2-3 Gloom Prism Spyders will be in nearly every list. Heavy Destroyers have already been discussed as really good anti-multi-wound units, but if you know the games are going to be focused around mass 1W models, just pass on them.

I feel like Necron lists will become very malleable depending on the "weather" of the games around them.

Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.

Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.

The Quantum shielding looks really good to me.

Melta and Lascannons are going to be popular weapons by the look of it. QS really counters Melta 2D6 take the highest quite strongly, and the thing about Lascannon type 1D6 damage is it's quite the good candidate for spending the reroll early - I reckon aiming for a brigade list is going to be a thing, giving 9 CP = 9 rerolls. At minimum with more expensive armies (like Necrons), 6 CP from two 3CP detachments. Expensive vehicles are key lynchpins, and you really want to be rerolling your 1's and 2's to maximise your damage values on them - but this doesn't really work against Necrons. Necs can also reroll their own QS if say you whiff with a 6 against their 5 or 6.
Arks seem really good. The Stalker/Doomsday combo is expensive at 587 but seems like it could offer massively powerful wound stripping downrange while at the same time being resilient back; and as a backup they offer 10-20 flayer shorts per Ark each now that facings aren't aren't a thing. Grab that firebase and feel more comfortable spamming out all the 1D attacks from Tesla and Gauss and Scarabs and Flayed Ones in the rest of the list.

Ghost Arks, seem expensive but strong - operate closer in, but without the fear against Melta - they put out the firepower of a ten man squad of Warriors themselves at 50 more points, and really it's a steal when you add in the res capability, on top of the ability.
Warriors themselves seem really good this go around, they lose the durabilty of the immediate RP roll, but being 4+ save recieve the massive boost to all 4+ save types, where all the old AP4 weapons give them a 5+ save from AP -1
The Obelisk isn't that bad either - in 8th ed, a LOT of units have the keyword FLY - in Necrons alone it's every vehicle, all C'tan, all Destroyers, Praetorians, Tomb Blades. Same goes for Tau; Eldar, Blood Angels...

 Grimgold wrote:
Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.

Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.

I would have thought that "my will be done" Tesla Immortals are our best bet against stealers. Not compared the maths though.

Spiders are one thing that seems pretty suck really. T6 4W non Character is just not tough - a 3+ hit (likely aurabuffed) 3+ wound, 4+ roll missle launcher or lascannon will take one out, snagging 81-89 odd points, without the gun. Not hard really. I think the vehicles stand up well enough on their own with QS

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Monolith + 6 x Wriath

Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith.

Think I spotted a problem with your plan:
Wraiths don't have the "Infantry" keyword. Monoliths (and Night Scythes) can only allow "Infantry". You would be able to take Praetorians, though.

 Grimgold wrote:
Scarabs are fast, fearless,

Are they, though?
I don't see anything on their data slate that would indicate they are (unless there's something somewhere that says all models with the Canoptek keyword have something like the Praetorian "Purpose Unshakeable" rule that I haven't seen yet)

So, for Battleforged army detachment tricks - I can see the Outrider 'Scarab Nest' detachment being a thing.
One HQ and 3 minimum size 3 base units of scarabs at 39 points each, that will give you your blockers and an HQ you'll want anyway, picking up one CP as a bonus.

You really want those throwaway cheapo units in 8th ed to shut down deployment vectors and speedbumping fast assault units.

 skoffs wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Monolith + 6 x Wriath

Use the deceivers ability to get him and both Liths within 12" (command point reroll helps) then first turn charge with Lichguard and Wraith.

Think I spotted a problem with your plan:
Wraiths don't have the "Infantry" keyword. Monoliths (and Night Scythes) can only allow "Infantry". You would be able to take Praetorians, though.

Good catch.

Scarabs are definitely going to help a lot as a tarpit.

Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.

Okay, quick, I need a list of everything we have that can get to (or at least threaten*) the other side of the table on turn 1:

Deceiver
Monolith
Obelisk
Infantry (coming out of a Monolith or NS)
Deathmarks
Flayed Ones
Night Scythe
Doom Scythe
*Doomsday Ark

Anything else?
I've got a CRAZY idea.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Unless something changed this edition genestealers don't benefit from synapse, so you can battle shock them off of the board. They do have leadership 9 though, so it takes around 7 or so casualties before battle shock becomes a worry, but that's also the same point where we can get them down to 3 attacks per with a decent battle shock roll.

Per the offense sheet, our best answer for genestealers is scarabs. Scarabs are fast, fearless, have a ton of attacks, and a ton of wounds. the fact they are around the same cost as Genestealers means we can field them in an almost one on one fashion. If a unit of 10 can get the charge it's likely good night for the genestealers.

I would have thought that "my will be done" Tesla Immortals are our best bet against stealers. Not compared the maths though.

Added tesla and MWBD tesla to the sheet, they are tied for third place against genestealers (they really want your pants), after scarabs, gauss immortals in rapid fire range, and tied with flayed ones.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scarabs are definitely going to help a lot as a tarpit.

Also was it just me or are Lychguard and Praetorians at 2 Wounds? I need to look at the sheets again but damn that's good stuff. If you want to fork over the points for a Cryptek, you can make your Lychguard still tough with a 5++ and keep the Scythes.

Yes they are 2 wounds now.