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As Spartacus has said, while Alaitoc isn't spectacular as a trait bonus, it's still the best in a sea of mediocre crap. It's no secret that Eldar got really screwed over on faction traits and relics.

6+++ will always be default good, it's just whether you feel you can trade up.

So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice? Do they compare favorably to Dark Reapers as Heavy Support?

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice?

good if you have more than one for stratagem they can do great, other wise forl ong range out put you might do better with dark reapers/crimson hunter/ hemlock

I outlined all the chapters that give you more. shurikan weaposn in biel-tann works pretty well for that reroll 1's on everything., saim-hann enabling shining spear and banshee turn 1 charges or in suring them, ulthwe for the guardian stratagem, and lyandan for the wraith bomb. Mix and match those, and maybe an alaitoc ranger detachment and i think that's what will shake out of the meta best.

Biel-tan also has what i'd say is one of the best relics for a melee focused eldar army in that you can give your warlock a free reroll on thier ability to insure you get quicken or something off turn 1. While saim-hann ahs the second best having the character assasinator weapon. That with a empower warlock can drop many heros quickly, or take a big fat chuck off somethign twice your size.

Hmmm yeah Im gonna have to disagree as well. Guardians, Banshees and close combat Wraithstuff will not be meta defining, theyre some of the more average choices in the codex.

And Alaitoc will not be all powerful taking hordes of Rangers. More like hordes of Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters, and Spectres apparently

Yeah, Guardians are okay and gimmicky at best, Banshees aren't good, and melee Wraiths are one-pump-chumps that suffer from all the worst problems that melee in 8th edition has in all the worst ways possible, and fall to pieces in a cloud of wasted overkill the moment an MSU army shows up. All of the options you listed require too much investment to be consistent and competitive options.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Dageran wrote:
Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?

Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.

It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.

Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......

Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.

The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.

It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.

I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

 Fafnir wrote:
As Spartacus has said, while Alaitoc isn't spectacular as a trait bonus, it's still the best in a sea of mediocre crap. It's no secret that Eldar got really screwed over on faction traits and relics.

Uh. Allow me to point you to the absolute bottom-tier mediocrity of the AdMech Codex.

mmimzie wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.

Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.

Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.

My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.

But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...

I would enjoy throwing down and finding out if you really could ignore Alaitoc. That would be an interesting list.

Smite can be handled by a mobile list with plenty of psykers. And there is still a ton of Guard in the meta. It's interesting to jump between this and another thread talking about leaf blower taking over. That's why we play the game, eh?

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.

I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.

So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.

TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.

-

I for one plan to avoid taking Alaitoc just to not just play into that "-1 is the best choice" crap that's already infested the game (that should never have been an "always on" passive effect IMHO). With the list ideas I'm tossing about, I'm probably going Biel-Tan since I have a large amount of shuriken weapons.

2 points.

You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll

Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.

Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what

 Galef wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.

I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.

So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.

TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.

-

Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?

 bullyboy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.

I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.

So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.

TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.

-

Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?

Agreed. Also, Why can't Wraithguard/blades mix and match weapons? I would love to have a WG unit with 3 D-scythes and 2 Wratihcannons, or a WB unit with 3 Axe/shield and 2 w/ dual swords
Terminators can mix weapons. Why do Humans (Imperials and Chaos) have a monopoly on versatility within units?

-

On the plus side, the WG not being able to take Sword/Shield or dual Axes or mix-n-match means i can kit Wraithblades however I want, as long is it's clear whether they have a shield or not.

Because the 2xSword WG look dumb. And a Sword + Shield WG would look cooler than Axe + Shield.

 Galef wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.

I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.

So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.

TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.

-

Unnecessary melee weapon? Feet are better? Please run the numbers against t7 3+ save monsters/vehicles. 7 vs 13 unsaved wounds makes a whole world of difference. The WK sword kills a t7/t8 3+ save 12 wounds model a turn, while with feet it doesn't.
In a WK vs IK combat the WK wrecks the imperial Knight due to a better weapon plus invulnerable save in melee.
Against heavy Tyranid monsters and Lords of War the CC Wraithknight is a very effective (even if expensive) tool. He keeps the feet, so he is also fairly decent against heavy infantry.
Ok, Eldar have wide access to Scatterlasers and Starcannons. But no-move-and-shoot-penalty ones? Nope. 8 3+ to hit Scatterlaser shots while moving are a useful tool to help clearing infantry screens and bubble wrap. Yes, this firepower pales when compared to an Avenger Gatling Cannon, but it's not negligible.
The sword+shield is actually just 4 points above 450 before shoulder guns. If you don't want them, you get a Knight which is cheaper and better at CC than a IK. It's the shooty versions that pay way too much, IMHO. They would both work at 454, indeed.
I won't say CC Wraithknights are competitive, but they can find a place on casual lists or LoW/heavy monster/vehicle metas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.

Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.

I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.

So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.

TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.

-

Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?

Agreed. Also, Why can't Wraithguard/blades mix and match weapons? I would love to have a WG unit with 3 D-scythes and 2 Wratihcannons, or a WB unit with 3 Axe/shield and 2 w/ dual swords
Terminators can mix weapons. Why do Humans (Imperials and Chaos) have a monopoly on versatility within units?

-

Not all Terminators can, right? AFAIK only Deathwing Terminators could mix and match weapons in a single unit. Maybe it changed in 8th.

You can mix'n'match SS+Hammers and Claws within Assault Termie squads, and you can add 1 Heavy to a Tac Termie squad. But you can't mix Tac Termies and Assault Termies in Codex Astartes units (such as Codex: Space Marines).

So I've played a few games with various troop load outs running pure CWE and I can't really find anything in our troop section that is worth much.

I've run a big guardian bomb in the webway (20 + 2 Shruiken Cannon), I've run a smaller lance/EML squad to sit objectives. I've also tried various combos of rangers and MSU Dire Avengers and none of it has impressed me. They're all either tremendously vulnerable or require such a huge investment in resources (CP, psychic powers, etc) that I just don't see them having a place in my armies. I'd still rather just run well priced Kabalites in cheap venoms.

Much of this is supposition, but here's my thoughts on troops

DAs:
Aspect Host lists seem to use DAs well, due to the other aspect squads being just as durable - similar to threat saturation.

They can take some heat as a troop tax, but not ideal

Storm Guardians:
Probably better than previous editions, but still worthless

Guardians:
Can camp a midfield or backfield objective like a Tac with a Heavy. Take a bit to shift. One more heavy weapon. Plus, if something midsized shows up there, they can take a bite out of it. Acceptable. Not amazing or terrible.

They can also pop out of Serpents or WWP. But you're doing only a little more than a 5man Plas Tac squad with a 10man Guardian unit. Again, it can do a useful bite. Acceptable again.

They're also the closest we have to chaff, if you really really need a line unit that can take a little shooting. Bad at it, but sometimes you simply need that.

Rangers:
Sniper Scouts. Sit back and do a couple wounds. Takes a bit of firepower to dislodge, but aren't super tanky. If the firepower could take out a Tac squad, it can take out a Ranger squad. If anything gets to them in CC - even just a min Tac squad - they die. Good for what they do. Don't expect them to kill much or survive too much.

Summary:
3 of our troops each have a use. What you need depends on what you're doing. And sometimes you'll want different troops in the same force.

I'm really curious why people are camping rangers out when... It really feels to be like that is the weakest way to utilize them. Every army stresses alternate deployment tactics, for obvious reasons, and rangers have one of the best ones for securing your own deployment zone.

I find their offense to be lacking, and their defense is average, in the best of scenarios. The -1 to be hit, or -2 with Aliatoc, is gimmicky or just enough to get them ignored... but that is usually more a product of their shabby offense than the traits. Ideally, you want them to be threatening enough to draw fire too get some work out if that -hit trait, and for that, spectres do so much better.

Dropping them ahead of your lines into the dead zone for deployment does allow you to make a cheap buffer for your lines, though. And their offensive output is meaningless, because their purpose is to stop critical units behind them from being ambushed or overran. They will make up their points by keeping assaulters or plasma out of your lines.

Guardians do something very similar, particularly out of webway strike. They can come in to take some space from the opponent. They can be inconvenient to navigate through due to the size of the unit, and can more easily earn their cost back before they are deleted. They require a little less support, but the size of the unit means that they get more gains when the support is there. The shirken weapons also threaten many units in the game, surprisingly, and the 12" range is something the webway helps to manage.

So either as a inconvenient obstacle, or a surprise ambush unit pushing out a lot of dangerous dakka on out of place units... Guardians can make their presence felt. I've been really liking them this edition.

Dire Avengers have me in a stump, though. They probably want a wave serpent more than the other units. They can't position themselves with ease, so they are a unit that can be planned against, and usually do not present enough of a threat to really redirect fire. That means they sink down on the threat priority, while the opponent goes for more interesting targets. Mine tend to muddle around the middle of the board, looking for something to get in to, but never really impacting the game outside of being opportunistic.

My experience for troops pretty much shakes out like this:

MSU rangers for deployment zone extension, aka: speed bumps.

Max guardians for timely deployment out of the webway, to control an area and present an unexpected threat (the knee jerk is strong with them).

Dire Avengers for when... I just want a touch of variety or want to put something in a wave serpent. More clutter in the middle means my deployment zone is cleaner, right?

As for craftworld... I usually play only one across the army, but completely, the craftworld traits tend to play out easily. Biel-tan for the battalion. Probably a spearhead with Aliatoc, toss in spectres here. And that's about all I play unless I bring a super heavy auxillary, then it is either iyanden or ultheway. Getting closer to iyanden, because fortune just flocks to the knight.

Also: Knight with a sword... Cheapest Knight, has a 5+. Super tanky. And people like shooting it for whatever reason. The fire it attracts is astounding. Put fortune on it... And snicker as it shields the rest of your tanks and support units.

Your milage may vary wildly, but that has been my experience.

Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

sadhvikv wrote:
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.

sadhvikv wrote:
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

I would hardly call the a "vital" unit. They certainly are one of the more cost effective answers, but far from the only.
But I do expect a small point increase on them

Hopefully the Skathach WK goes down dramatically in points. If its total cost comes down close enough to the Codex WK, but still keeps the Webway Strike ability, I could see this being the answer to making WKs playable again.

-

Lord Perversor wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.

FW is being included, so I expect to see them in there. I just hope not as a point hike, because right now they seem about right. They are fragile, mobile and hard to hit and have decent, short-range firepower. Their current ppm cost seems spot on.

Lord Perversor wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.

The teaser today literally states they are adjusting forgeworld costs in chapter approved. The example they gave was malefic lords are now going to be 80 points. So hopefully Eldar do get adjusted.

I hope Shadow Spectres exarch gets 2 wounds and has his cost adjusted, but i hope they don't go up more points. They're well-costed, but definitely not undercosted.

The other FW stuff however could use a reduction. esp warp hunter and hornets. Besides all of the weapons which have gone down in cost, but have not been adjust in FW yet.

I think Spectres should get a points increase, and that's as someone who fields 10-15 of them.

Spectre with a 1-5pt increase would really make room for warp spiders to have a role as the armies premier tank unit.

I was thinking Maybe even shining spears need a points adjustment, but the shining spears have sooo much more risk they put themselves under due to having to go melee.

Note that anything in the codex is up for points adjustment because folks have been play testing chapter approved for 3 months now.

I really don't agree with a 5pt increase in Shadow Spectres - at most maybe a 1-2 but 5 seems heavy handed to say the least.

 DanielFM wrote:
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much.

It really isn't too much. The base cost of an IK is 320 points which includes a 5++ against shooting.

The WK has exactly the same base stats and no invulnerable save yet costs 400 points base. If the Wraithlord cost 300 points base, it would be fine. Not great but OK.

Heavy Wraithcannons are OK although they do pretty much mono-purpose the WK. The Sword'n'Board variety hits hard but not hard enough for its points. I have shot one down before it ever got near my lines and that was with my Space Wolves (hardly known as a hardcore shooting army). The Suncannon is just a joke. For more points than an Avenger, you get almost half the RoF and just one point better on AP.

The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.

 Karhedron wrote:
The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.

Bingo. GW seems to believe in the law of averages. The WK was too cheap for an entire edition, so it needs to be over costed for AT LEAST a whole edition before they'll price it appropriately
Sadly by the time that happens, the WK sales will be so low that GW will have forgotten about them and do nothing.

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