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Shining Spears are probably a better choice for killing hordes, but Spectres are more tactically versatile.

Spartacus wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

Cheers for that! The other thing I noticed while reading about them today is that they are Jet Pack infantry. Wave Serpents are unable to transport Jump Pack Infantry but it says nothing about jet packs. This could be another alternative way to keep them safe if for example you use the cloudstrike stratagem (like I often do).

That has been changed in Errata to Jump Pack.

Aw lame, never mind with that one then!

Spectres are great. Versatile, and definitely not fragile. They do great with an Autarch escort. Don't see how Spears would be better against hordes.

Forewarned, the models are tricky to put together. Better be good with your green stuff. Poorly molded, too.

xmbk wrote:
Spectres are great. Versatile, and definitely not fragile. They do great with an Autarch escort. Don't see how Spears would be better against hordes.

Forewarned, the models are tricky to put together. Better be good with your green stuff. Poorly molded, too.

Spears have a set 4 shots each on the twin cats and 1 laser lance shot. So they have an average higher volume of shots then spectres at 6" and even if not in lance range at 12". They can then charge their target to inflict more damage.

For 8pts over a spectre a spear brings more movement, +1 T, +1 W, 4++ against shooting, the ability to deal damage in combat, consistent volume of firepower. Spectres are still very good but the points drop on spears has made spears a contender for the role that spectres perform.

Spectres also have heavy flamers, 4 Spectres for the price of 3 Spears. Both are good, Spectres have higher damage output v hordes, though.

xmbk wrote:
Spectres also have heavy flamers, 4 Spectres for the price of 3 Spears. Both are good, Spectres have higher damage output v hordes, though.

Using your 4 spectres to 3 spears comparison...

Spears:
4.0 wounds from Twin Shuriken Catapult
1.67 wounds from Laser Lance shooting
3.33 wounds from Laser Lance melee on the charge
2.00 wounds from Laser lance melee without charge

Total: 9 dead GEQ on the charge, 7.67 if you don't factor in the charge bonus

Spectres:
1.67 wounds from Coherent Prism Rifle
5.83 wounds from Diffused Prism rifle
2.78 wounds from melee

Total: 8.61 including melee

Now granted that doesn't factor in the bonus from hitting on 6s with the prism rifle, but I don't see that overtaking the Diffused version.

Twin Shuriken is only 3.5 (12*2/3*2/3*2/3).
Diffused is 7.8 (14*2/3*5/6)

Also, I would just compare shooting. Don't really want to charge with either unit into a horde. The diffused fire is a much bigger deterrent to counter charges.

Again, they are both good, but I'll take Spectres v hordes.

 Chippen wrote:


Now granted that doesn't factor in the bonus from hitting on 6s with the prism rifle, but I don't see that overtaking the Diffused version.

Coherent isn't on 6's, it is an additional hit for every hit to a max of 3 hits with the weapon. It is almost always going to be at least 2 hits.

 Chippen wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Spectres also have heavy flamers, 4 Spectres for the price of 3 Spears. Both are good, Spectres have higher damage output v hordes, though.

Using your 4 spectres to 3 spears comparison...

Spears:
4.0 wounds from Twin Shuriken Catapult
1.67 wounds from Laser Lance shooting
3.33 wounds from Laser Lance melee on the charge
2.00 wounds from Laser lance melee without charge

Total: 9 dead GEQ on the charge, 7.67 if you don't factor in the charge bonus

Spectres:
1.67 wounds from Coherent Prism Rifle
5.83 wounds from Diffused Prism rifle
2.78 wounds from melee

Total: 8.61 including melee

Now granted that doesn't factor in the bonus from hitting on 6s with the prism rifle, but I don't see that overtaking the Diffused version.

I think your analyse is a bit disingenuous. Some of the math is abit off and the spears are alot more likely to be in effective shooting range than the spectrres are thanks to auto 6" advance. If both start on the line and your opponent start within 4" oh thier deployment line than the spears will make range for all thier ranged weapons while the specters are hoping for ~6s for charge.

~4.69 is how much damage the coherent prism rifle does. It's nto a bonus on 6's it jsut lets you get an extra hit just from hitting. So it's a big deal.
~7.77 geq woudns for the coherent for a unit of 4 spectres.
~.88 melee damage from 4 specters in melee

So a realistic comparison:

3 shining spears
T1
5.67 wounds from shooting
T2
9 wounds from charging and melee

2turn total of 14.67

4spectres:
T1
4.69 from coherent
T2
8.65 wounds from diffusion and melee

2 turn total of 13.34



Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
Twin Shuriken is only 3.5 (12*2/3*2/3*2/3).
Diffused is 7.8 (14*2/3*5/6)

Also, I would just compare shooting. Don't really want to charge with either unit into a horde. The diffused fire is a much bigger deterrent to counter charges.

Again, they are both good, but I'll take Spectres v hordes.

as ssome one who has alot of shining spears in my list you can and do want to charge shining spears into hordes. It's alot of damage and it's almost auto wounding weapons. While you miss the double damage it still clears hrodes very well when compared to the rest of our availible army options.

Also he was right on the shuriken catapult math you aren't factoring in the 6's having better ap than the normal wound rolls.

As has been said on this thread many times. Eldar suck really really bad against hordes. You really have to go the extra mine to deal with them. Our anti armor options are really good despite capping out at str 8, and we are particularly good at taking out everything in the middle of the GEQ-Super heavy spectrum. It's jsut the GEQ part where our forces struggle and lack in effeiency when compared to other armies. As such even charging horde blobs with shining spears is a viable tactic to deal with them as they are among one of the most efficient tools we have available.

Nice thread. Subbed.

Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.

I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.

Isn't it also T4 and 2W vs T3 1W but 3 Spears for every Spectre (per cost)?

Ok, so can we say with nothing in the Chapter Approved and the huge FAQ nerf Ynnari are nothing but small detachment fodder (if you are willing to not use a CWE warlord trait, relic or the Path of Command CP regeneration).

After overcoming denial and rage, I think it was for the best. Now I'm more fond of CWE and happy to play a pure army of them.

 Chippen wrote:
Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.

I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.

The multi-mode weapon and -2 to-hit via Alaitoc, plus better range on weapons and no need to be in CC to make the most of the unit, I think Specters are very strong.

Thankfully, they don't really compete for the same slot, so you can just opt for both.

I was going to say, both are really good, and both have their perks. And between them, they probably work pretty well in tandem too.

So load up hard on both.

mmimzie wrote:


I think your analyse is a bit disingenuous. Some of the math is abit off and the spears are alot more likely to be in effective shooting range than the spectrres are thanks to auto 6" advance. If both start on the line and your opponent start within 4" oh thier deployment line than the spears will make range for all thier ranged weapons while the specters are hoping for ~6s for charge.

~4.69 is how much damage the coherent prism rifle does. It's nto a bonus on 6's it jsut lets you get an extra hit just from hitting. So it's a big deal.
~7.77 geq woudns for the coherent for a unit of 4 spectres.
~.88 melee damage from 4 specters in melee

So a realistic comparison:

3 shining spears
T1
5.67 wounds from shooting
T2
9 wounds from charging and melee

2turn total of 14.67

4spectres:
T1
4.69 from coherent
T2
8.65 wounds from diffusion and melee

2 turn total of 13.34

I think you missed a shooting phase Turn 2 in your analysis for the spears? There's no reason why they can't shoot and charge in the same turn like the spectres.

EDIT: NM the 9 includes your shooting math so that line really reads shooting and melee.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Chippen wrote:
Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.

I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.

The multi-mode weapon and -2 to-hit via Alaitoc, plus better range on weapons and no need to be in CC to make the most of the unit, I think Specters are very strong.

Thankfully, they don't really compete for the same slot, so you can just opt for both.

I have been running 3 units of 5 Shadow Spectres in my last few games (alaitoc) and I have been overwhelmingly impressed. On paper they look excellent, but on the table top they seem to be the swiss army knife my army was missing.

Now I need to try out my Shining Spears!

Right, missed the shuriken bonus AP.

As someone who faces Orks regularly, can't agree that you want to be charging hordes all the time. But situationally, yes.

As has been pointed out, they are both good, and can both fit in a list. Spectres will shoot hordes better, Spears are slightly better if you charge. Spears are faster, Spectres have better range with a better weapon. Spears are tougher.

Spears, Spectres, Hemlocks, and Reapers are the backbone of a competitive list, in my opinion. Along with chars, they are all you need to hang with any army out there.

Just played a store tournament with 3 units of 5 Spectres, 1 max Reaper unit, 4 Hemlocks, 3 Rangers and chars. Tabled all 3 opponents, including Morty one game and Girly another. Spectres are very nice, 10 Reapers dictate the game, but Hemlocks are the really dirty unit.

Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?

Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.

It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.

I think Serpent Wraiths and a Webway unit can compete. Scythes, Implacable, and Wraith toughness can match up with hordes, combined with Serpents. Psykers can slow down Smite. Maybe not high end, but can compete and have good games.

Fire Prisms are limited, not overly impressed with them. A Reaper firebase with Farseer is game changing, though.

I'd definitely avoid running an "Iyanden" style army as Iyanden, though. Alaitoc (obviously) and Ulthwe offer benefits that are worth more mileage for wraith forces (and Ulthwe's trait feels fluffier, IMO).

lyanden is kind of like what ynnari is right now?? It's all about that one big move that big movie comes in the form of the lyanden relic and the wraith stratagem where you burn both of those and go ham.

From there it's probably also the best place to stick a wraith knight who could also benefit from said stratagem/relic.

Other than that you need more army to support that and you'd want another craft world for that.

Where spectres do shine against hordes is the hordes ability to deal with them.
The inbuilt -1 to hit makes conscripts and orks hit on 6s. With alaitoc they can’t even hit them unless within 12. With conceal on they can’t even hit them at all.
Then if they charge them they are eating heavy flamer auto hits to do it. And even if they do get in to combat, they are still at -1 to hit them and have to contend with 3+ save. And then the spectres just fly out of combat and flame them.

But yeah, as has been stated why not have both.

 Dageran wrote:
Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?

Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.

It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.

Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......

Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.

The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.

It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Where spectres do shine against hordes is the hordes ability to deal with them.
The inbuilt -1 to hit makes conscripts and orks hit on 6s. With alaitoc they can’t even hit them unless within 12. With conceal on they can’t even hit them at all.
Then if they charge them they are eating heavy flamer auto hits to do it. And even if they do get in to combat, they are still at -1 to hit them and have to contend with 3+ save. And then the spectres just fly out of combat and flame them.

But yeah, as has been stated why not have both.

I dont like considering conceal because your opponent can just chose not to kill the concealed unit.

I also don't think alaitoc is any good in the current meta because most meta armies don't really care about it because most of them do better within 12".

Deathguard spam smite and try to get in your face, pulling off a decent beta strike after they wonder up the table.

Guard as is known are hordie and alaitoc doesn't give you any benefits to deal with them, and become more barbed as you bring stuff like spectres/guardians/etc into 12" when you turn on rapid fire for thier weapons.

even pre nerf ynnari didn't care because mosto f those had very close range elements.

And those three are what i would have considered top dogs for strongest army.

From thier we are trying to see where CWE and Nids will shake out. If needs are good alaitoc won't bring much protection

I honestly think alaitoc is a bit bad. Space marines/Admech/chaos space marines have all had -1 to hit if they are far away stratagems, and they are never used copetively. Admech have a much better long range game than we do and they don't even do it well (more long range options with only slightly less damage out put on more durable models). While marines in cover get a 2+ save and are by extension stupidly resilient accross the table which we are not. Alaitoc really just doesn't seem like the go to craftworld for eldar success

Out side of dark reapers and the crimson hunter. Our best weapons> Hemlock/Shining spears/ spectres all want to be closer. While the dark reapers (go a few pages back) do sub par damage in comparison to the ones listed.

From thier other decently competive options such as banshees/scoprions/guardians/etc languish when being chosen in an alaitoc force.

Again one of our most powerful GEQ squads is the guardian webway force. 20 strong guardians out of the web way will do work. However, they find themselves well out side of the protective alaitoc bubble when they do so, and so gain not alaitoc benefits.

Banshee also do well against MEQ and GEQ units and have a realistic chance of getting a charge off from the line when leaving a transport. Even better depening on deployment map. However, again they only benefit from thier transport taking less from the opening salvo, and don't gain any advantages to thier charge.

All wraith varients wanna get close, and alaitoc again only protects them for the one turn where they are waiting to play the game. Should you go first you gain no alaitoc benefits in this or any of the above caes.

However in other craftworlds you do have benefits you can gain.

As i mentioned moments ago the lyanden bomb is real, and with support it isn't too hard to get a large squad of wraith guard into alot of taste targets.

The guardian squad benefits alot from being in beil-tann as they receive a free reroll one with out needing an autarch around. Letting them be more independent. While they can also benefit from ulthwe's black guardian stratagem making them more dealy should you have a sky runner autarch posed to support them.

Banshee's from transport charge because more reliable and gaining an average 1" or 2" of charge range via the reroll from saim-hann craft world. Scorpions also gain some token deep strike and charge possibilities, but these almost aren't worth mentioning (but i did <.<.

Even the great shining start of CWE the shining spears benefit from rerolling charge, making that damage all the more consistent, and letting them get that turn 1 charge of very reliably from the line.

Shadow spectres become quite tough on the line, and the insurance they'll stick around is pretty nice. everything else your army becomes more the target for enemy fire. While the -1 would have had this effect on your opponent any.... Then again losing thier alaitoc advantage when ever you attempt to take advantage of your flamer profile and your good movement.

while the fabled alaitoc rangers kidn of feel like they should be nothing but back line defenders. taking away the only role i think they are useful in. That role being as DS denial units, as they lose thier alaitoc bonus from being deployed 18" up from your line. In this case they become the meta useless unit known as the back line defender.

All in all i think alaitoc is abit of a crutch, and a cancer to the mind of the CWE player. It's good no doubt... but just about every other armies has been given this ability as well and they don't use it either... while they also have more compeling reasons to stay outside of 12" than most of our army does. CWE has a powerful melee component and really good shurikan weapons that are very pts efficient despite low range. Many of these shurikan weapons doing well from everything to GEQ-Vehicles. I think if you want to make a good competive list you should look outside of alaitoc.

 Karhedron wrote:

Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......

Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.

The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.

It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.

Thanks for the info- I may have to try out getting more Wave Serpents, though it's tough to match out how they'd make a huge difference vs. hordes.
I agree that taking a Wraithknight is probably the biggest handicap to a Wraith list right now. I'm using one at the moment because I love the model and it took 3 months to paint, but at the end of the day I know I'm going to have to drop it in favor of units that can actually contest the board.

I can actually weigh in a bit on Wraithlords, though, since I've been running 3x and have been pleasantly surprised with them:
I've found that (with Iyanden, granted) Lords are a really great difficult-to-answer midfield support unit. They're very versatile, and cheap enough per wound when un-kitted, to be effective damage sponges. Outfitted with swords you're looking at an effective MEQ/Carnifex killer if that's what your list needs-- but a basic Wraithlord w/ Catapults + Cannons feels like it can easily make its points back in a group.

Unfortunately, the biggest failing of Wraithlords / Wraithguard is still horde armies, particularly in instances where the opponent knows how to really abuse the pile-in mechanic, and/or use double-move shenanigans to encircle the unit- permanently locking it in melee (even Wraithguard).

For that reason I can't really recommend flamers on the Wraithlords. Keeping a Wraithlord anywhere near another unit invites your opponent to tar-pit them without suffering overwatch from the Flamers by simply charging the other unit, then piling into it. So currently the Wraithlords are in the position of jockeying in the midfield with consistent, tanky damage output vs. Infantry while looking for a charge/counter-charge on something medium sized.

All in all, I've been really happy with them- it's just that they badly, badly need some kind of support when it comes to fighting hordes. There's just no way to effectively answer the map control that respawning blobs of 30-50 cultists + Poxwalkers or Gaunts can have. It makes playing any Maelstrom-style mission feel like an auto-lose before the match starts.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.

Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.

xmbk wrote:
Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.

Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.

Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.

My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.

But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...

mmimzie wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.

Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.

Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.

My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.

But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...

What would you predict as the encumbent 'meta' Craftworld then?

Sure its possible to get around the Alaitoc trait, but its still a significant buff when in effect. All the others just seem so 'meh' as to barely even bother with them at all, and are hugely build-specific to be useful. Alaitoc also effects all models in your army, which is different to what we've seen from Raven Guard and the like.

Does anyone elses browser always try to suggest 'Clitoral' as a spelling correction for Alaitoc? Gets me every time.