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I played two Apoc games over the weekend. Both times Flank March was just abusive on the face of it.
The first was playing against Tau with Sisters, with one Stratagem a side. It was not a big table (just under a 3k game) but even still, rolling out 30 odd girls, moving 6" then rapidfiring his infantry to death was just silly. With a 4'xX' surface, you really only can be outside of a first turn charge in about 6", first turn being "first turn the enemy is deployed". So if you think I have flank march, you can move your gun line 18"+ away from an edge to avoid those charging jump troops or fleet stealers. But that puts you very close to your opponant, in fact merely 6" from no man's land (assuming lengthwise deployment zones, much less if diagonal) which is 18" from his closest unit (if he sets up second.) Essentially that puts you right smack against his troops, almost in the same position you were in ignoring the possibility of flank march! Now on a truly massive table it might not be as much of a problem, but it is still there.

The second game both sides took flank march out of two choices, but one took Careful Planning and the other Bland Barrage. The Careful planning side dropped only titans and superheavies in deployment, then first turn brought plague marines and demon princes in on the rear to light things up. We might have pulled the game out, (my team mate had to leave early.) but that was a huge blow. Upon our second turn we pulled a similar move, and did pretty well but it was no where near as crushing as a first turn hit before you get to move assault.

In general, after seeing the possible effects, we decided to limit it to 3 units, and only fast attack or troops. We figure it makes sense fluff wise, and limits the possible crushing nature, making a smaller hammer to hit you in the butt, and not the scarier options.

And while we discussed Ambush and Disruptors, it seems to us that being forced to take a Stratagem to foil another that an opponant may or may not have taken but don't do much on their own means that Stratagem is too powerfull. Consider for a moment that without such requirements, one could drop a Heirodrule (sp) in your back field first turn to charge into you. Ambush doesn't do much to it, and Disruptor is useless if your opponant sees you have it, and chances are pretty useless even if he doesn't care.

its supposed to be fun. I have enjoyed myself greatly with apoc. Finally get a chance to use my titans and flyers. I still lost both games but it was fun.  If somebody uses a list thats to abusive they wont get many games.  thats how it works here

Posted By beef on 10/28/2007 4:01 PM
its supposed to be fun. I have enjoyed myself greatly with apoc. Finally get a chance to use my titans and flyers. I still lost both games but it was fun.  If somebody uses a list thats to abusive they wont get many games.  thats how it works here

The complaint isn't about abusive lists, it's about Flank March. A really fluffy list can still be overpowered thanks to Flank March and the deployment/bidding rules.

BYE

NOOOO HBMC has lost his Avatar!!!
Dogs & Cats living together-Mass Hysteria!!

And HBMC, I agree with the Flank-March call. I think it's WAY too powerful. A Company of SM's might give it a pasting with it's spacial SReserves, but that's about it. NIDS love that Asset.

I don't.

I'm curious how big the tables others have been playing on are? Flank March doesn't seem to be much of a problem when the center of the table is a few feet away from a table edge.

Choice things that caught my eye:

Strategic Reserves are really interesting. The wording on page 23 states "(Units) move onto the table in the Movement phase." This seems to support the UK FAQ GT that reserves come on 'during' the movement phase and not necessarily at the start of the turn, thereby allowing you to move units already in play before bringing on reserves.

Also interesting is how Deep Striking units are allowed to "enter via a table edge" when they become available. A termie bomb could be a really effective flanking force, especially if combined with some turbo boosting teleport homer bikes.

Personally, I think the disruptor beacon is the most powerful stratagem in Apocalypse. A four foot radius has a great chance to deny reserves to a huge area of the battlefield that should contain at least a few of the objectives. A 4+ that allows me to redeploy the entry point means I have a 4+ of making sure that unit is dead (all deep striking terminators will be redeployed to the very corner edge of the table) or so far out of the game they won't have any affect on it. Just make sure to deploy the beacon somewhere protected by LOS blocking terrain and tanks.

Strategic Redeployment is pretty strong too, giving every army (even close combat foot slogging orks) unlimited movement. If you are taking second turn and clear a kill zone and path to the objectives, strategic redeployment hands you the win.

I think it's pretty plain to see that the battle formations are key to making an effective Apocalypse force. The assets are so strong that the shear number your team has is a pretty good indication of who is going to win.

I also don't see flank march needing to be house ruled because Ambush is such an effective counter to it. Because you know reserves must come on in one of two turns, and at least 50% in the latter turn, there's very little guess work involved in deciding when to use it. And if a lot of units (or his whole army) come on from flank march, they are going to get crippled usually. An ork mob or a Khorne cohort would lose half it's force. There may be a learning curve involved with Flank March, but 1 game with Ambush will make a flank march army rethink its entire strategy. No need to make house rules here. The nail in the coffin is that Ambush can be gotten really easily even without choosing it. It comes with the Chapter Masters and the Seer Council so the odds of it seeing play most games is pretty high.

My plans include a Drop pod Battle Company. I think 110 marines deployed with drop pods all in one turn is going to be pretty strong, and I don't need flank march to pull it off either.

One question for others out there: I also want to field a Black Templar Battle Company. How would others suggest I go about doing this considering Black Templars can't take Devestators?

Even if I can't take the formation, I think a Black Templar Apocalypse army with a lot of marines (100+), the chapter masters, four Emperor's Champions (with one of each vow), inquisitor with psychic hood, and some imperial ordnance back up (to bait the flank chargers) will work pretty well.

I haven't had a chance to read the Apocalypse book yet, but would it be possible to use a cheap part of your force as a rearguard, lining up with maximum dispersal along the table edge to prevent the enemy from moving in from that area?

Again, Flank March is too powerful if one MUST take one of two stratagems to defend against it. Sure, if Ambush did something good other than stick it in Flank March's eye it wouldn't be too bad. But it doesn't. You are blowing a Stratagem on the assumption your opponant is going to pick one of what, 20?
Disruptor is pretty good all around, particularly if the deployment zones are unequal size (allowing you to really dump it close to your opponant's table edges) but it is kind of lame to have to take it just in case.

Look at it this way: I am playing a 1v1 game with my buddy. Per the rules, we each get 1 Stratagem. He doesn't play SM or Eldar, and neither do I (at the moment) so well, no free Ambush. 1 Strat each... well, looks like we are either taking Flank March, or Ambush/Disruptor. Boy, that was fun! You have no idea what you are going to face!
Yes, you could just say "We each get 2." But isn't it much better to just say "No flank march"? Otherwise everyone takes Flank March and Ambush/Disruptor.

Or even look at it this way: What is your plan for dealing with a squadron of Penitent Engines showing up on your short table edge and moving 13-18" to assault second or even turn? What do you put back there that handles 6-21 Str10 dreadnaught CC weapons? Now, I doubt you consider Penitent Engines an "abusive" choice. The problem is they normally have to GET somewhere, which usually means they get plastered by AC or even heavy bolter fire before they get close. How do you intend to deal with them when they are in hand to hand before you even get to shoot at them? Never mind winged demon princes and fleeting Genestealers.
Hence, even with a sub-tier fluffy Witch Hunters army, Flank march does UGLY things.

Edit: Pariah: Your plan works fairly well with high points per model armies. What does IG do? 3000+ points is a ton even with tank heavy forces, and with more infantry it doesn't allow more than the 12-18" needed to ensure you do not get chain assaulted. With say Necrons, ok that might be alright, or Marines that are all Veterans and tweaked with max wargear. But even infantry heavy marines can get pretty cramped based on terrain and deployment zones. Which forces your opponant to either leave units in reserve to leave the needed space, or deploy nothing, take flank march, and do to you what he is afraid you intend to do to him.

I just played my first apocolypse game, and I'll write something a little more complete tomorrow, but I have to say it was a blast. I played all infantry guard (with rough riders), my buddy actually fit 4000pts of dark Angels onto a single FOC. He too flank march for his 5 termie squads and belial, and I took supreme headquarters. While his deathwing cut up my flanks pretty bad, I had three squads of rough riders in reserve that evened things out. I ended up winning, ironically because I had a squad hold for 5 turns thanks to Supreme HQ.

If you're playing a game, you need to discuss flank march, or else really trust your opponent not to hose you. It is that good.

Finally, Apocolypse really does provide the sort of "gaming moments" that are great memories:

An interrogator chaplain dying to a hail of ratling fire, after killing four ogyrn with four powerfist attacks on one turn and Commissar Yarrick the turn before that.


A JO with bolt pistol shooting the last terminator from a squad dead.

Rough riders Killing the last two termies of a squad... with their las pistols

An attack bike slowly chewing through an entire IG squad, only to die to a single las pistol shot from a JO

Gaunt and 17 conscripts charging a tac squad, gaunt hits with all six attacks, only wounds once, gaunt takes three wounds back, conscripts flee in terror.

My Grey Knight Grandmaster charging his termies, killing three. Next turn he charges another squad in cover, a single lightning claw termie drops him dead before he can swing.

We had two of those moments in my first game:

1. Abaddon teleports down next to Eldrad and the Seer Council, charges them, spends two turns in combat, kills half of them before finally being brought down.
2. An Oblit teleports down next to my Macharius, and rips it apart with a single Melta-gun shot. That was annoying...

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/29/2007 10:29 PM
We had two of those moments in my first game:

1. Abaddon teleports down next to Eldrad and the Seer Council, charges them, spends two turns in combat, kills half of them before finally being brought down.

Heh we had a good moment that stands out in my head from last Saturday.

Two super heavy tanks, baneblade and shadowsword, parked next to each other, pounding on 15 odd girls in cover (who managed to be my last units on the table after 4 turns of Apoc pain.) My second turn, Cannoness Camomile the Mild hops in behind the the tanks next to a unit of 15 Repentia with priest and mistress. The Repentia get frothy, and charge the Shadowsword, while Camomile goes after the rear armor of the Baneblade. "Eh, she can stun a gun crew or something with her Inferno pisol and meltabomb, and maybe give the other girls a chance to get there and melta/eviscerate the thing."

Cannoness fires. Hits. Penetrates. Rolls a 6, chain reaction, roll again, 5... oookay dead baneblade. Catastrophic damage... 6... oh no... 18" radius...

The Baneblade proceeded to vaporize itself, killing EVERY Repentia and the Mistress, the Priest being just outside, ripped the main cannon off the Shadowsword, tore the cannon off a nearby Basilisk, vaporized a few plague marines, stunned a killa kan, and destroyed 3 peices of terrain.

And Cannoness Camomile the Mild stood alone in a smoking crater the size of an Abby and littered with the smoking chunks of her sisters, staring with surprise and confusion at her little Inferno pistol.

After buying the gamers edition, reading the book, and finally playing the game, I?m ready to form an opinion of this new supplement. Instead of doing a blow by blow, page by page review, I?m going to answer many of my questions about the game. Enjoy!

Should I buy Apocalypse?

This is the big question for anybody reading a review, and the answer is a qualified ?No!? The book is $50, worth about $30 as a color, hardback book with pretty pictures, and has only slightly more gaming content than a $22 codex. The average gamer (if such a creature were to exist) will get very little gaming benefit from this book, and certainly less benefit than from simply buying two new codices and learn about other armies. Some gamers will buy Apocalypse, so if you fall into one or more of the following categories you?re probably going to end up buying it:
1) People who simply buy everything GW makes
2) People for whom spending $50 on a luxury is in no way a tough call
3) Gaming clubs
4) People with lots of Forgeworld models (although you probably fall into one of the above anyway.
5) People who want to run big games and nobody else will buy the book.

This may sound harsh, but there?s essentially only a handful of aspects to the book: the apocalypse mission (a couple of pages that can be learned), formations, and assets (which are available for download). With more formations available for download, the need for every player to have their own copy is pretty low.

Is apocalypse worth playing?

This is the other big question, and the answer is a qualified ?Yes!? The mission simplifies the game to board control rather than VPs, the board set up creates interesting deployment zones, and the elegant system of gaining first turn eliminates the terrifying roll for first turn. If both sides simply bring fun, flavorful armies, a good time will be had.

The qualification is pretty simple: jerks. Apocalypse is like a game of twister: it only takes one jerk to ruin everybody?s fun. Flank March is highly abuse able, and players who can pick and choose their armies can load up on cheese. That all said, you know who is a jerk before you invite them.

How many ways can apocalypse be played?

This is an open ended question, because every gaming group will play differently, but there are a few broad ways to structure a game.

the bring and battle. This is the worst way to play, IMO, but apocalypse can at least handle it better than any other rules set. Roughly divide sides, add and lose people as they arrive or leave, and simply have fun. All the assets are useful, and really, nobody cares who wins or loses. As a way to play all day, but with minimal planning, the system can handle it fairly well.

The big F?n game. A close cousin of the above, the BFG traditionally has a much stricter set up, with predetermined sides, often a story, well modeled objectives, captains and lieutenants on both sides, and efforts made to actually balance the sides and make the conflict?s outcome actually important. Apocalypse rules are sort of redundant here, as most clubs that ran BFGs already had some form of rule set, but apocalypse does have the advantage of portability, as well as including all the (admittedly cool) formations. If nothing else, these rules take a lot of the fear out of planning a BFG.

The Resin Parade. One or both players have access to huge amounts of superheavies, fliers, AA guns, etc., and they want to play with it all. These games are a basic game with an interest DZ, but completely legitimize the usage of IA, as well as the datasheets included in the book. Finally the guy with an old armorcast titan, two baneblades, and a thunderbolt can play with them all.

Team games. Particularly when playing 2 on 1, or 3 on 2, apocalypse really shines. If you have three guys sitting in the shop, and 4 hours, why not play apocalypse with what everybody brought?

Big Games: distinct from the BFG, big games are when small amounts of players, usually 2-4, simply play a big old game. This is perhaps the closest to the mythical ?play every mini you own? ideal GW suggests. I see myself playing this one a lot, as even 4k is playable in 4 hours or so, and Superheavies, formations, etc. can be added to taste.


So, is apocalypse simply for fluff gaming?

Surprisingly, not at all. The narrow no man?s land essentially guarantees first turn combat, but that does not necessarily unbalance the game. Giving one side first turn, but less time to deploy, is balanced by giving the other side the ability to react to that deployment. Strategic reserves are actually strategic: you can bring in up to half each time, and you can pick what units are most useful and which ones you should save for later. Going second also gives you the last reserves, which is far more useful than in a standard game.

Designing apocalypse armies is complicated, both from a strategic and fairness standpoint. You need to possibly account for superheavies, fliers, tons of infantry, uber powerful ICs, monstrous or gargantuan creatures, foot sloggers arriving behind your lines via Flank March, and the powerful Vortex Grenade. Apocalypse armies require mobility, but the DZs allow a certain amount of flexibility. All armies need strong counter charge elements (see the guaranteed first turn charge).

There?s plenty of tactics and strategy to be had before and during an apocalypse game.

So, how abusive is Flank March, really?

If you plan on playing a lot of apocalypse games, test it yourself and see how your group handles it. I think most groups will quickly come to a consensus on its usage. Keep in mind, every army can abuse it, so there?s the danger of Mutually Assured Destruction if the only options to take are Flank March or Ambush.

If you are planning a one-off game, or are gaming with strangers, I?d recommend the guidelines set forth by HBMC: each player must deploy half his army, and any player using flank march must deploy half (rounding down) of his reserves on turn 2. This way, only half of any given army will flank, giving opponents something to combat on the board on turn 1.

I called them guidelines, not rules, because I think apocalypse should allow anything people find cool. I propose what I call the ?reasonably compelling? test for judging exceptions to the above guidelines. If a player can craft a reasonably compelling reason why more than half of his force would flank and/or why more than half the reserves would arrive on one turn, than he should be allowed to do what he wishes. The classic example would be if a player is taking pure ravenwing, Saim Hain, white scars, or even Kult of speed army. The classic failure would be if your opponent wants to flank you with terminators, for example.

How do armies like drop pods or drop troops handle apocalypse?

Not well, frankly. Assuming the dropping player is smart, he?ll bid to go second, giving his opponent two turns of doing nothing. While a canny player can hunker down on the objectives, this does not make a fun game for either party. I?m surprised that GW didn?t include rules for armies that will start most or all of their units in reserve, but here is my rough attempt at creating some.

If either player will be keeping most of this army (~75% or more of his units) in strategic reserve with the intent of entering play via deep strike or drop pod assault, then the following rules apply:
1) that player will automatically gain first turn and first deployment
2) That player gains at no cost the Careful Planning asset, allowing reserves to enter play on turns 1&2. Only those units deepstriking/drop podding may use this asset.
3) That player must bring half of his deep striking/ drop podding reserves into play on turn 1.
4) Other strategic reserves may be deployed as the player sees fit.
5) If both players are using such armies, than these rules do not apply.
6) If the player?s forces are 1/3 or less of his sides total forces, these rules do not apply.

Under these rules, a space marine player can deploy a few whirlwinds, while the rest of his army arrives by deep strike on turn one. The goal is to make fun, believable scenarios for all players. There?s nothing wrong with one player on a four man team arriving by drop pod on turns 2-3, but in a one on one game, it would be silly.

Good review, Polonius.

Good review. That pretty much matches with my impressions. It's cool and all, but I doubt I'll ever play more than a game or two with it. Similarly that makes it difficult to justify buying a Baneblade instead of a Battleforce/Battalion Box.