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Interesting write up, but I ended feeling that maybe we are approaching the game from oppossing angles - I get the feeling that the game is about plonk big armies down and have a blast, not analysing cost effectiveness of indivudual units/formations. want a competitive/tourney style game play 40k, want a social gathering involving lots of toy soldiers play apocalypse.

Posted By puree on 10/12/2007 4:32 PM
Interesting write up, but I ended feeling that maybe we are approaching the game from oppossing angles - I get the feeling that the game is about plonk big armies down and have a blast, not analysing cost effectiveness of indivudual units/formations. want a competitive/tourney style game play 40k, want a social gathering involving lots of toy soldiers play apocalypse.

I think you're right, except that even in a "just for fun" situation, some of the options are substantially more appealing, for multiple reapons.  Every Eldar player will use the Cloudstrike squadron, because nearly every Eldar Player has two grav tanks, or will buy a third, and it's an amazing benefit.  The Emperors Talon, on the other hand, requires 10 sentinels, and provides a fairly minor benefit (though I"m warming to strategic redeployment as a last turn objective grabber).  There's simply less usage for the datasheet.

I think anybody who says that there will be no optimization for apocolypse is naive.  And anyways, there's not much to the review if I simply say: "every formation is wicked awesome!  it's so much fun!"  Among long term hobbyists, there are a lot of guys with more than enough to pick and choose their armies.

Finally, there's no real need for every gamer to own this book.  You really only need one per game, and if I can steer people who might not get a ton of benefit (I'm looking at you, sisters of battle players), then maybe I can save them some money.

Part II: Datasheets that make Polonius a sad/mystified/unimpressed Panda

Ogryn Auxillia: Now, my five Ogryn have broken my poor heart more times then I can recall. From failing morale tests, to evaporating to powerfists, to simply not actually killing any enemy models, Ogryn can graciously be termed "underacheivers." I was excited at the prospect of an Ogryn Datasheet, thinking maybe they would give them a rule (like Immune to ID, fearless, countercharge, etc.) that actually helps them. Instead, they get to make a scout move. That's it. Great, now my countercharge units can move closer to the enemy. Neat enough, I suppose, but it doesn't make me want to buy 5 more ogryn, or even the one more I'd need to legally feild the minimum.

Suppresion Force: This is a really cool idea. it's thematic and groovy, and vindicates people who own multiple Whirlwinds. I'm not sure that making the lynchpin of a datasheet an AV10 vehicles that requires LOS is really a sound long term plan, when simply carpetting the nuetral zone with minefield missiles is such tempting choice.

Hydra Flak Tank: Let me get this straight... it has less armament than a Thunderbolt, is less versitle, and cost 20 pts more. Now, this thing is murder on wheels for shooting down flyers, but so is the thunderbolt, and at least the T-bolt gets the protection of SMF. I might be missing something here, but I had kind of pegged this little guy at about 120, not 200pts.

Kult of Speed: Admittedly one of the easier formations to build, it's basically the army of the same name. Still, the only bonus is Strat. Reployment? The beakies get all kinds of bonuses for filling out the ranks, why no love for the lads?

Hive Mind Brood: This is probably one of those subtle things that I can't grasp at first, but to me it looks like a giant wad of tyranids that can choose to launch a giant Pinning test instead of shooting. Aside from mega Choirs (which admittedly make this pretty sweet) this seems kind of lame. I'm not sure how I feel about a formation that's either dumb if not optimized, and potentially game shattering if worked right. Five zoeys and a tyrant can force every enemy unit within a Six foot radius to take a pinning test. This is a lot of points sunk, but it's pretty brutal. Finally, how excited would you be to make 20+ pinning tests?


Tide of Spawn: Given the cost of spawn, this is about a 100pt savings, assuming you have exactly 10 marines to turn into spawn. Any more, and you lose the extra paid. Any less, and you lose spawn. Since you can have as many spawn as you want, and Chaos Marines are actually pretty good, I'm not sure why you would take this one.


Part III: In which Polonius wonders why certain datasheets don't exist.

There are a few egregious omissions in the book. I'm not going to go into IA units here, GW still wants to sell them, and I have the old book if I ever really want to field a salamander. The following is a list of formations that basically create themselves:

Imperial Guard Infantry company: So simple, it's a shame it's not real. 1 Command HQ, 0-1 hardened vets, 4+ Platoons of 3 squads each. 100pts + cost of models. Gain Hold at all Costs and Supreme Headquarters

Stormtrooper Demi-Company: 1 Commissar, 5+ stormtrooper squads. The commissar can join a squad, and deepstrike with them. The commissar unit deepstrikes first, and all later squads may re-roll the scatter dice when deep striking. 25 pts + models.

Grey Knight Teleport Attack: 1 GK Hero, 1+ GK terminator squad, 1+ GK teleport attack squad. On the turn they deploy, all shots gain the rending rule. 75pts + models.

Some sort of sisters thing: I don't know enough to write one, but I'd imagine it'd be a cannoness, a couple of seraphim, some sisters squads, and the retributors. The formation gets d3 faith points a turn.

Green Tide: 6 mobs of slugga or shoota boyz. The formation gets a 5+ invulnerable save. 200pts + models.

And those are just off the top of my head. I"m hoping they'll release datasheets for these or something similar, especially since the inquisition gets shafted pretty hard in that department.

Lots of Apocalypse battle reports starting to come in from friends. (sadly I am away from them and my models until Xmas holidays - but then it shall be all out war)

The Helsinki Independent store played a battle with 40000pts. While GW Helsinki played and all nighter with god knows how many pts.  Lets see if we get some pictures and I'll share them here

From what I've seen Apoc is something to be impressed with.

But only if you've got a solid gaming group.

It doesn't really seem to add much to the game other than legitmising what alot of hobbiest seem to have been doing for a long time (at least since the v4 rules came out).

Well my book finally arrived, along with a set of templates, two vortex domes, the new Necron Lord, two Phalanx boxes and a Baneblade. My other Baneblade and the Imp City did not arrive though. Very annoyed.

I'm liking this book more and more, and I'm desperate for a game. I want to try out a tank horde with my 5 Super-Heavies and 30 Russes on the table. A big 10000 point tank bash.

BYE

HB, Advanced Orders page says the Imp City doesn't come out 'til November 1st. I'm waiting for my Tau tank trio too.

That's good for me. It gives me a few weeks to try and justify the cost to myself. (It'll be handy for Necromunda too...)

Posted By Polonius on 10/12/2007 6:09 PM

Ogryn Auxillia: Now, my five Ogryn have broken my poor heart more times then I can recall. From failing morale tests, to evaporating to powerfists, to simply not actually killing any enemy models, Ogryn can graciously be termed "underacheivers." I was excited at the prospect of an Ogryn Datasheet, thinking maybe they would give them a rule (like Immune to ID, fearless, countercharge, etc.) that actually helps them. Instead, they get to make a scout move. That's it. Great, now my countercharge units can move closer to the enemy. Neat enough, I suppose, but it doesn't make me want to buy 5 more ogryn, or even the one more I'd need to legally feild the minimum.

I was pretty underwhelmed by this as well. It just goes to show that GW has no idea what to do with Ogryns. Ever since the advent of 3rd edition, they've been essentially a unit without any battlefield role, significant drawbacks and marginal benefits. They're a unit that by rights shouldn't be in the Imperial Guard list, and who lose out to 20 unupgraded conscripts every time in the only role they could conceivably be used at, speed bumps.

That being said, I own 13.

I'd use em for no other reason than they look good.

In a 2000 pt game, I'd probably spend my points elsewhere, I have little room to work with unless I remove a precious tank which I don't wanna do. But in an apocalypse game I'd gladly use em. I was going to get the Auxilia set when it was listed as $90 but now that they almost doubled the price I'm going to skip it but I may still get a unit of the new ogryns, but not till after I'm done my baneblade

Posted By stonefox on 10/16/2007 5:38 AM
HB, Advanced Orders page says the Imp City doesn't come out 'til November 1st. I'm waiting for my Tau tank trio too.

Well I ordered everything from Maelstrom games in the UK, who not only discount the prices that are already cheaper than buying them here in Oz, but don't charge any shipping either. Their release date for the City was the same as everything else, so it and one of the two Baneblades are missing.

I hope they didn't get lost in transit...

BYE

Posted By migsula on 10/14/2007 2:06 PM
Lots of Apocalypse battle reports starting to come in from friends. (sadly I am away from them and my models until Xmas holidays - but then it shall be all out war)

The Helsinki Independent store played a battle with 40000pts. While GW Helsinki played and all nighter with god knows how many pts.  Lets see if we get some pictures and I'll share them here

Of these, the indep game was reputedly better. The Helsinki GW games (two of them, one from 2PM to 9AM, the other from 11AM to 5PM) were rather loud and chaotic, though fun in their own way. The highlight was when GW Oslo called and sent us a squadron of Thunderbolts to take out a Chaos Warhound. We replied with a Vortex Missile, i believe.

The Sydney stores here in Oz were phoning in artillery bombardments all day.

BYE

Ah HB, I forget that not everyone here's in the U.S. I'm used to only considering that fact on Warseer.

Also, hahahaha. Calling in to do moves? It's like the precursor to email internet chess! You'd think these guys would be able to run an instant messenger at least.

Now, I don't know if GW Oslo actually had three thunderbolts, but we had an Imperial Cruiser:

http://www.40k2.com/misc/apocalypse/ixus_0041.JPG

Linky linky.

I love the guy rockin' the Cadian helmet.

Yeah, it was a pretty good work. I'm not sure whose it was, it was passed around quite a lot. There was a Chaos helmet, too with some eight-pointed stars and a spike.

What's the comic, Osbad?

Link:

www.misfirecomics.net/index.php

Yeah it occured to me after I posted that I just had to right click on the image to get the URL.
Damn I'm smart today.

Ummmm...HBMC mentioned about the Make Your Own Datasheet page... Can't find it. Any note on what page it is??

Page 62, but you won't be impressed.

The whole two page spread is basically a fancy way of saying 'Use the 'Counts As' rules!!!'.

BYE

Oh. I read that page and didn't even look at the title. I feel like a rubber phallic instrument with batteries in it...

It woulda been nice to have some VDR, that's the only real thing I don't like about the book.

It's good practice to give a link after a picture anyway. That way you're
feeding the website even while you're taking their bandwidth.

Well, I played my first game of Apocalypse yesterday and had a great time overall. Things I learned:

1) Don't fall in love with any one unit. If your opponent thinks it's a threat, it's going to die.
2) Keep the big picture in mind. Who cares if a trio of Land Raiders appears on your flank and start strafing your Baneblade with Lascannons if the Land Raiders aren't near any objectives? As tempting as it might be to Flank Attack a bunch of chain-fisted Terminators over there to see the Land Raiders off, reinforcing the objective instead is probably a better idea.
3) Apocalypse takes longer than you think. We played "only" ~8500pts a side and only got 3.5 turns in over 5 hours (you're supposed to finish the bottom half of the turn but the game was pretty much decided at the time limit.)

Overall, good times and I can't wait to play again knowing how things work better.

We played our first game, and it was a terrible waste of time.

5000 points per player, two players per side.

Guard w/3 Superheavies + Eldar w/1   vs   the scariest Chaos list I could put together + mixed Guard/Tau/Marine tanks.


I played the Guard. We found out a few things:


1. Time limits on turns. 30 mins per player. We have 20000 points, and in 9 hours go through 3.5 turns.
2. The combination of Flank March, not deploying any forces, and bidding 30 mins so that you go second and waste your opponent's first three turns is just plain broken. I lost 3000 points worth of Guard before they could do anything as they had no targets for three turns, and then on turn three 8000 points of enemy forces came crashing into us from all angles, and all of my super heavies died without causing any real damage.
3. You need themed armies. None of our armies were themed and it just wasn't fun. My next army is going to be themed around an Inquisitor.
4. The way you determine deployment zones is broken. The opposing side ended up with such a tiny DZ that they had no choice but to leave everything in strategic reserve. It's far better to use a scatter dice to determine the angle of split, but otherwise keep it 50/50 + no man's land.

Hopefully the next one will be different, but as it stands if you're playing an assaulty army, there's no reason not to take Flank March, bid 30 mins, keep everything off the table, and do nothing for the first three turns while your opponent flounders trying to block off entry points.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/21/2007 8:12 PM

4. The way you determine deployment zones is broken. The opposing side ended up with such a tiny DZ that they had no choice but to leave everything in strategic reserve. It's far better to use a scatter dice to determine the angle of split, but otherwise keep it 50/50 + no man's land.

  I thought that was how you were supposed to do it anyway. 

  Well, thanks for the tips.  Sorry it didn't go so well for you. 

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/21/2007 8:12 PM

2. The combination of Flank March, not deploying any forces, and bidding 30 mins so that you go second and waste your opponent's first three turns is just plain broken. I lost 3000 points worth of Guard before they could do anything as they had no targets for three turns, and then on turn three 8000 points of enemy forces came crashing into us from all angles, and all of my super heavies died without causing any real damage.

I suppose it is proof of my naivety that I never even considered that particular combination, which really is both painful and fairly unsportsmanlike, considering the opponent is left with noting at all to do for extended periods of time. Fighting fire with fire is probably ill-advised, but I'd counter that strategy with Ambush and moving fast and/or deep strike troops to capture objectives in his vacant deployment zone. Of course, THAT can be countered by taking vehicles and 2+ troops which don't take much Ambush damage.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/21/2007 8:12 PM

Hopefully the next one will be different, but as it stands if you're playing an assaulty army, there's no reason not to take Flank March, bid 30 mins, keep everything off the table, and do nothing for the first three turns while your opponent flounders trying to block off entry points.

Weeeell, for me, getting a reputation as a jerk would be reason enough for me not to.

"Weeeell, for me, getting a reputation as a jerk would be reason enough for me not to."

Totally agree.

Although its still pretty pisspoor ruleswriting if you have to rely on your players not actually using the rules you have written in order to have an unbroken game!