Winged Chaos Characters

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**yamato**

Like I said before:

If you have the ability to move as jump infantry, where would you go to find the rules that define how you could move your model (whatever type it is)?

Personally, I would check:

Section: Unit Types
Subsection: Jump Infantry
Paragraph: Movement

This is of course on page 52.

How else are you to define how your winged model will move, than by looking at the rules for Jump Infantry Movement?

Clearly if you have a MC or Infantry model that is allowed to move as Jump Infantry because you bought wings for it, then it must follow some movement rules?

If you chose not to use your wings on the DP, by all means, roll your 3D6 for "move through cover", but if you choose to use the wings, you have to then follow the rules for Jump Infantry Movement, and treat the model as a jump infantry model during the movement phase.

**Cadian16th**

yakface wrote:
Stelek wrote:

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

Stelek:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.

However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".

Only if all "Jump Infantry" are "Jump Infantry models" as well.

**Jaradakar**

yakface wrote:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.

However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".

So I am simply trying to point out that you cannot claim that the use of these two different terms throughout the Jump Infantry rules somehow means two different things (because it doesn't).

But back to the real bone of contention:

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

We agree that this applies to Jump Infantry models. However, a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry must follow all the rules for moving like Jump Infantry (again I hope we can agree on that).

So the only question we have to answer is:

Is the rule quoted above a movement rule or not? If it is, then it must apply to models that "move like" Jump Infantry.

The fact is, the rules is found in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules and it seems to clearly (to me) be a test that has to be taken depending on how a Jump Infantry model moves. All it is saying is:

If the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test. If not, it does not have to take said test.

If that is not a rule defining how exactly a Jump Infantry models is allowed/not allowed to move, then I don't know what is.

And if you can agree that the rule is indeed a rule governing the movement of Jump Infantry models then there is absolutely no way to claim that such a rule would not apply to a model that moves like Jump Infantry.

Seems pretty clear to me and I agree with you Yak. This is also how my gaming group plays it (Winged Daemons who move 12" like a jump infantry have to take a dangerous terrain test if they land in/on difficult terrain.

-------------------------------

Of course... I question the need for that rule altogether

. Do we really need terrain that plays one way for one troop type and another for everyone else?

If a jump infantry lands on an upper story building (Ruin/Arena terrain) and even though the landing location looks perfectly flat/easy to land on, does it really need to make a difficult terrain test? (Why?)

Jump infantry already cost more than other units, do they need to be penalized for moving in/out of terrain (aka die to just moving around)? My personally thoughts are they do not and hate that GW added this rule in. The game imo would have played quicker and easier if it was omitted.

But that's not really my call to make...

-Jara

**Spellbound**

Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry. Wording is powerful for powergamers.

Regardless, I'll just ignore Stelek despite "knowing in my heart of hearts by RAW" that he's correct, and make tests for my princes and lords, and not allow lords with wings to ride in vehicles.

Because sometimes playing as RAI is more fun. I mean look at the combat drug rules from the old chaos codex! By RAW, I could make every aspiring champion and character in my army completely and utterly unkillable for the whole game, but that wouldn't be any fun

**insaniak**

Spellbound wrote:Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry.

There is nothing in the rules about 'landing' or 'leaving terrain'

Just the rule that says that if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain, they take the test.

So no, Stelek's not correct by RAW. It's a movement rule for Jump Infantry. If a model moves like Jump Infantry, it must follow the movement rules for Jump Infantry. All of them.

**Stelek**

Hey I know, why doesn't everyone just repeat their opinions endlessly....

**Red_Lives**

It is important to note that chaos lords with wings are NOT jump infantry. The just follow the paragraph on p. 52 about jump infantry movement... all of it. Not just the may move 12" part.

And may i ask stelek how would you treat models with wings moving into a forest? Must they roll 2d6 and pick the highest since they are infantry? Or do you think they move like jump infantry without the downsides?

**Typeline**

Red_Lives wrote:It is important to note that chaos lords with wings are NOT jump infantry. The just follow the paragraph on p. 52 about jump infantry movement... all of it. Not just the may move 12" part.

And may i ask stelek how would you treat models with wings moving into a forest? Must they roll 2d6 and pick the highest since they are infantry? Or do you think they move like jump infantry without the downsides?

Listen we've been through this already, a number of times. The rules are unclear, UNCLEAR! We looked through the rules. Winged models move as JI but aren't JI models. There are a lot of references in the rules to JI Models but we don't know if that applies to JI and those moving as JI anything anyone says about it (even Stelek and I) is just conjecture. We are saying that they should move as JI but don't follow any restrictions for JI models when they state that JI models have a restrictions. Yes this creates an extreme amount of ambiguity and rules conundrums. But why have the "must models wings" restriction to them if there is not a benefit? I see where everyone else is coming from as well. If you simply treat winged units as JI it's awwwwww right.

So all this rabble rabble won't get us anywhere. Suck it up, they will FAQ it eventually (probably a long eventually though).

We know the rules are unclear. So stop bawwing at us and just shrug your shoulders and take it up with your group to see how they want to play it.

This argument really doesn't effective me as I run a crap list with no wings (Just thought I'd throw that in there, I'm pretty nuetral).

**fullheadofhair**

I fail to see the argument. It isn't at all unclear. It moves as JI and therefore take the restrictions and take a difficult terrain test.

Pg 52 is pretty conclusive, but the paragraph that clears it up is the fullback rules for JI.

"JI fall back 3d6 because they always use their jump packs when doing this.They move over any terrain and models when doing this, but if they end in their move in difficult terrain they must still take a DT."

If a lord with wings moves as JI, when it falls back it must use its jump pack or wings to do so. Therefore the DT rules apply. If they apply in this case why wouldn't they apply during normal movement.

**Wehrkind**

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test."

Stelek, how do you get your models to roll their saves? Mine always just stare blankly at me until I roll the saves for them.

I think we are focusing too much on the "model" aspect. Taking the sentance perfectly literally, one assumes the model itself must roll the dice, since taking a test requires rolling dice. If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Though if you really can get your models to take tests for you, let me know. My lazy bitches have been slacking!

**Kallbrand**

Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

**fullheadofhair**

Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

**Typeline**

fullheadofhair wrote:
Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

It's not that he is moving as JI when he lands in the terrain it is that he is not a JI model. The rule says JI models take the DT test when beginning/ending in terrain. That is what your missing. The entire rules section, however, never mentions that the term JI and JI model are being used interchangeably. The rules are unclear.

**fullheadofhair**

Typeline wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:
Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

It's not that he is moving as JI when he lands in the terrain it is that he is not a JI model. The rule says JI models take the DT test when beginning/ending in terrain. That is what your missing. The entire rules section, however, never mentions that the term JI and JI model are being used interchangeably. The rules are unclear.

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

**Typeline**

fullheadofhair wrote:

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

Oh look! The rules are unclear because of using different terms! This what we're talking about. And why there is a loophole. You can't just sit there and say "illogical". There are many rules in this game that are illogical. If they don't FAQ it get ready to have some movement rules handled differently by different judges.

**fullheadofhair**

Typeline wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

Oh look! The rules are unclear because of using different terms! This what we're talking about. And why there is a loophole. You can't just sit there and say "illogical". There are many rules in this game that are illogical. If they don't FAQ it get ready to have some movement rules handled differently by different judges.

It isn't illogical at all. Move as JI and therefore follow the movement rules for JI which are in the "MOVEMENT" section for JI. The effect of DT on the movement of JI are also in the MOVEMENT section. Why wouldn't the DT rules apply to a model moving as JI. This is stretching the rules some what to say other wise.

**Kallbrand**

So you think moving as jump infantry means you are a jump infantry model? Even tho the FAQ says specifcally sais that you do not become one? And thats not illogical?

**coredump**

For the love of God.....

No one is saying that. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!

The only time it comes up, is when you ask if someone is saying that.

Here is the situation.
Every unit that *is* a Jump infantry unit, must follow *all* of the Jump Infantry rules, no matter where they are.
Every unit that "moves" like JI, but follow all of the "Movement" rules for JI.

So lets determine where those rules would be listed..hmmm...

Lets check in the Jump Infantry Section. Where they list the rules for JI
Now lets look in the Movement section, where they give the *movement* rules, y'know, the ones we have to follow....
And there you go, 9 rules listed out. Those rules are, by definition, the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
In order to 'move' like JI, you need to follow *all* of the rules for movement. Otherwise you only 'sorta move' like JI.

Somehow, you look at the list of rules, under the Movement heading, under the JI heading. And decide "Well *that* rule in the JI MOvement rule section... that rules isn't *really* a movement rule. So I won't follow it.

If you are moving like JI, then that means for the intents and purposes of *movement*, you are considered a JI. Not that you actually are.... but you are considered one for determining which movement rules you must follow.

part of how a JI moves, is by taking tests when landing.... thus if you are 'like' them, you will take one too.

**Harkainos**

Wow.... I just read 5 pages of people saying the same thing. Are my eyes bleeding?

I think the dispute here is: Are difficult/dangerous terrain tests part of movement?

Yes, it is described in the 'movement' paragraph of every section for each unit. Their written location and played timing are critically part of movement. I still haven't found anything that would indicate otherwise.

P1: Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Tests are part of movement.

P2: Chaos models with the 'wings' upgrade move as Jump Infantry.

P3: Jump infantry take Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Tests a specific way.

C: Chaos models with the 'wings' upgrade follow the Jump Infantry method of test for Dangerous/Difficult Terrain.

While Stelek (and his camp) have been a champions here and made some very compelling arguments. You are hard pressed to ignore that those test are part of movement.

I think that if this is to continue, please state arguments where those tests are not part of movement.

**Harkainos**

Spellbound wrote:Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry. Wording is powerful for powergamers.

There is no such terminology: 'land as' or 'leave terrain as' - that is a farse, and quite possibly THE farse fueling this debate.

**Harkainos**

Wehrkind wrote:"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test."

Stelek, how do you get your models to roll their saves? Mine always just stare blankly at me until I roll the saves for them.

I think we are focusing too much on the "model" aspect. Taking the sentance perfectly literally, one assumes the model itself must roll the dice, since taking a test requires rolling dice. If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Though if you really can get your models to take tests for you, let me know. My lazy bitches have been slacking!

Better yet, it doesn't say you have to pass the test, just take it.....

**fullheadofhair**

Kallbrand wrote:So you think moving as jump infantry means you are a jump infantry model? Even tho the FAQ says specifcally sais that you do not become one? And thats not illogical?

Where do get that from. What are you reading that even says that? No-one is disagree with that part - please read the thread properly.

Move as JI. Simple as that. Move as, not is.

Therefore follow the movement rules for JI under the MOVEMENT section.

In the MOVEMENT section for JI it says that JI moving in an out of DT take a DT test.

Chaos Lord with wings "MOVES AS" JI. Note - move as, not is.

Chaos Lord "MOVING AS" JI lands in DT therefore takes a DT terrain test.

What is so difficult. Simple English comprehension. Nothing less.

Go read the MOVEMENT section of JI before commenting on this.

**yamato**

Wehrkind wrote:If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Ok, this part is one of the few things to have added reason to this discussion in some time. GW never uses the term "figure" or anything of the sort. They always use the terms "unit" and "model" to distinguish the difference between a group of figures and a single figure.

As well; the CSM FAQ "does taking "Wings" classify a model as jump infantry?",...... and we have been through the answer several times.

"Jump Infantry," as it turns out, is a UNIT TYPE. I can find no reference or rules for "model types," but there are a whole host resouces for "unit types."

There is a UNIT TYPE summary on pages 4-5, and then the UNIT TYPE details on pages 51-55.

I agree with Wehrkind,..... we are putting too much emphasis on the word "model."